battle map progression

[Rommel]

I'm a little confused on how the map progressions will work. Was reading the read.me file and it said that if you accomplish one mission (for instance you win on the last defense) then on the next mission its the same troops but having to advance?

So it'll basically be maps, one after another sort of like like dominos? a long line of them?

Ok and with the "core units" what happens in a new battle? do you get all new troops? I mean i understand the absurdity of having the same troops from north africa all of a sudden magically fight in normandy, but will you basically be sticking with the same bunch from normandy to berlin?

[Moon]

Operations (this is the new "official" term used for what used to be campaigns) work like this:

you play each battle on a portion of one huge map. As you advance (or get you butt kicked when being the defender), the map window on which you are playing is going to advance along the pre-designed map.

This has nothing to do with scenarios like Last Defense - i.e. you will not see "linked" scenarios. Operations are a thing on their own with their own rules and victory conditions (there are no flags, you're judged by advance speed, kill ratios etc.)

At the beginning of the first battle, you will receive units. I guess you could consider these your "core units". As you progress through the battles in an operation, you will receive reinforcements (or not). Sometimes most of the "core units" will be gone once you are four or five battles down the road, sometimes you might preserve a few...

Operations do not span "Normandy to Berlin", but instead simulate much smaller engagements (hence the new term operations and not campaigns). Usually, an operation will span a few days (yes, night and dawn/dusk battles will be in), but can also take place all on one day or go on for more than a week.

[Bullethead]

Moon-

Thanks for the word. That all sounds quite cool, especially the victory conditions. Got some questions about the structure of "operations," though.

1. Pre-attack Recon:

Do I get any or will all operations begin (like the demo scenarios) with me launching my forces into the blue and whatever prepared defenses are out there?

2. Mid-Operations Recon:

When I discover heavy defenses the hard way during an attack, will I be able to patrol before the next attack, to try to find a way around them or locate hidden weapons? Or are all battles pre-ordained to be major attacks?

3. Timing of Battles:

Will I have any control over the time of day the successive battles of an operation are fought? Will my opponent? For example, say Battle #1 is a day attack that bogs down. Will I be able to order night patrols before another day attack? Or say I just want to rest for the night--can my opponent decide to disturb my sleep with an "unscheduled" counterattack?

4. Mid-Operations Consolidation

Will my guys be able to dig in on captured territory, to be able to better withstand any counterattack my opponent might decide to launch?

-Bullethead

[Moon]

1. Pre-attack Recon:

Do I get any or will all operations begin (like the demo scenarios) with me launching my forces into the blue and whatever prepared defenses are out there?

USUALLY, Operations start out like scenarios. You get an operations briefing, which should include all the intel you are supposed to have from the pre-attack recon phase. I said "usually", however, because nothing forbids having an operation dealing with pre-attack recon - in such a case the author would give you just a weak recon force for the first battle of the scenario and wish you good luck

2. Mid-Operations Recon:

When I discover heavy defenses the hard way during an attack, will I be able to patrol before the next attack, to try to find a way around them or locate hidden weapons? Or are all battles pre-ordained to be major attacks?

The battles are meant to show the main thrusts and you cannot scout out the defenses in between battles. What you can do in between battles, and I think I mentioned it, is to reposition your forces. Unfortunately the defender can do the same...

3. Timing of Battles:

Will I have any control over the time of day the successive battles of an operation are fought? Will my opponent? For example, say Battle #1 is a day attack that bogs down. Will I be able to order night patrols before another day attack? Or say I just want to rest for the night--can my opponent decide to disturb my sleep with an "unscheduled" counterattack?

The author of the operation pre-sets which side (if any) can launch nighttime attacks. Sometimes neither side can, sometimes both. The attacking player has the option if he uses the night for a patrol or skirmish, or a full-scale attack.

4. Mid-Operations Consolidation

Will my guys be able to dig in on captured territory, to be able to better withstand any counterattack my opponent might decide to launch?

Both sides are allowed to dig in from battle two on (meaning that they will start off with foxholes for their infantry automatically). Therefore realistic counterattacks are very much possible.

[Rick]

This sounds like it will be the funnest part of the final release.

[Bullethead]

Moon-

Thanks for the info.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The author of the operation pre-sets which side (if any) can launch nighttime attacks. Sometimes neither side can, sometimes both. The attacking player has the option if he uses the night for a patrol or skirmish, or a full-scale attack.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does this mean that an operation might have pre-ordained night actions, or does it mean that 1 or both sides might have the option to fight on any given night if they so desire? Or both?

And on that subject, if you do a morning battle, will you have the option to continue the attack in the afternoon? Just how much of the timing of battles is scripted and how much is under player control?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The battles are meant to show the main thrusts and you cannot scout out the defenses in between battles. What you can do in between battles, and I think I mentioned it, is to reposition your forces. Unfortunately the defender can do the same...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you get any intel briefing on such moves? Like "During the night, you hear tracked vehicles moving on your left front and troops digging in on your right front."

Or even something like "An enemy soldier got lost in the dark and wandered into your positions. He says they're going to launch another attack at 0900 tomorrow."

And say you used the night to patrol and located that pesky 88 that's kept you from getting your tanks into decisive action. Will the enemy still be able to move it before the next day battle?

Stuff like that. I'm just trying to get a handle on the sort of FOW, and the available means of dispelling it, available to the player in an operation.

-Bullethead

[This message has been edited by Bullethead (edited 12-05-99).]

[Moon]

The latter - one or both sides have the option to fight during night... but they can also skip it and the game will move on to the next battle.

The scenario designer defines how many battles will be fought per day. He does so by setting e.g., every sixth battle as night battle. He also decides when the opening battle takes place: night, day, dusk or dawn.

In the above example you could have for example - one dawn battle, three day battles, one dusk battle, one night battle (optional) and so on until the limit is reached or one side has won.

There is not intel about enemy repositioning between battles, but the idea is actually not bad...

Before every battle both sides are allowed to reposition. There are limits with regard to repositioning, though, so you cannot magically teleport units out of a cut-off pocket to the rear etc.

Martin

PS. A sidenote with regard to recon - keep in mind that CMs scale is fairly small. At battalion level and down you won't encounter the classical "recon" - this is done by divisions. You've been in battle, you know the enemy is there and CLOSE.

At CMs scale, usually, you would conduct patrols to make sure your lines has not been infiltrated or combat patrols forward to get POWs or stay in contact with the enemy. Playing an operation these decisions are up to you. There are no victory flags and maps are generally large, so all the options are there.

PPS. And looking at the operations being tested currently, I'd say there is a decent chance that there will be at least one dealing with recon specifically. But even if not, you can make yours with the editor.

[This message has been edited by Moon (edited 12-06-99).]

[This message has been edited by Moon (edited 12-06-99).]

[Lee]

Thanks for the info., Martin. These campaigns/operations sound

quite interesting (and nerve racking; night battles... *shudder* ).

You know, I was just thinking how funny all this is. Steve and Charles

are kicking all these big game companies' butts in the wargame

genre (WWII squad level combat, that is to say). And there's

only the two of them working on it, haha. I love it. And if it

were only the realism aspects that they were ahead in, you might

be able to believe it more easily. But it's far more than that.

Not only do they have the finest data set in existence on this

subject, but they have the best graphics, the best interface, the

best sound and the best AI, too! Now that's what I call thrashing

the big companies! Nice work, guys.

[Los]

I have been playing a few campaigns (actually they're caled Operations)and they are ultimate expression of this game. I do love the fact that you have to send out patrols and whatnot especially since there can often be too much distance on the map to set up a front line ala WW1. I could go on and on. It's gonne be great.

Los

[Bullethead]

Moon said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In the above example you could have for example - one dawn battle, three day battles, one dusk battle, one night battle (optional) and so on until the limit is reached or one side has won.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, gotcha. So as the designer you'd set it up so the attackers have X days to get to the objective. What the attacker does on those day is up to him. So like if there were 3 day battles per day, he might just sit still through the last 2 of them to absorb replacements and wait for reinforcements to come up, etc. And maybe do something at night, or not. Sounds cool.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>There is not intel about enemy repositioning between battles, but the idea is actually not bad<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably be a bitch it implement, but it's a feature I'd like to see. Would really add to the immersion and realism, I think.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>PS. A sidenote with regard to recon - keep in mind that CMs scale is fairly small. At battalion level and down you won't encounter the classical "recon" - this is done by divisions. You've been in battle, you know the enemy is there and CLOSE.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but I was thinking of recon in terms of accomplishing the battalion's mission. You run into a snag that makes the initial attack plan impossible so you have to find a way around or whatever.

-Bullethead

[Reverendo]

What level of replayability will the scenarios have?

What I mean is:

a) Is night/day/dusk/whatever specified on the map, or you can find yourself playing the same scenario at a different time of the day?

Is weather sorta random? What's the effect of weather? How many weather types can we find?

P.S: © when will the game be released? :¬)

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Regards

Reverendo

[Moon]

Scenarios are pre-defined with regard to weather and time of day - this does not change, although you could easily load a scenario into the editor and manually change the weather.

In campaigns, weather is random, but is preset to good (lots of sunshine), varied (a little bit of everything) or bad (rain, fog, snow, you name it). Ground conditions are preset but change with weather (two or three battles in rain and the ground will be mud).

[CoolColJ]

Sounds good!

Operations will be where I'll be 90% of the time !! Can we generate random operations?

And can we have operations where we can buy forces?

My dreams have come true ;0

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CCJ

BLITZ_Force

My HomePage -----> www.geocities.com/coolcolj/