noob Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Below are some screen shots pertaining to a situation that caused me to gripe about the lack of armor cover arcs in the game. The situation is i have a Stug at the end of a road with a cover arc down the road to what i thought was more than its LOS just to be on the safe side, so i thought that any enemy units would not be visible until they were 274 metres away from my Stug as demonstrated by the blue target line. However enemies were spotted at round about the 420 mark where i did not think my tank had a LOS. Also i noticed that the enemy tank was visible for about 10 metres outside of my cover arc when it was spotted, you can see from third picture that my LOS tool although not blue says the spotter is hull down with no aim point whereas just 1 metre ahead of it it says no LOS, which means although my tank cannot see the road at that 440 metres it can still see something higher than the road surface even though the LOS tool isn't blue, move it 1 metre forward and no LOS for anything as the last few pictures demonstrate. I never really noticed this before and always assumed if it wasn't blue you couldnt see it, and as you can see if i had known about this quirk i could of set my cover arc forward by 10 metres and had more notice about the tank. Also the pictures demonstrate how infantry don't get spotted until they are well in the arc whereas the tank does as soon as it moves into the 440 metre range, this is totally new to me and has tempered my feelings toward the cover arc somewhat, as any player wanting to use infantry to trigger an arc has to penetrate the arc significantly before the tank reacts to them, thus making it viable to place an MG to suppress any infantry so they don't get spotted by the tank before any enemy armor turns up, and it also demonstrates to me that i need to pay attention to what the LOS tool "says" and not what colour it is. So with that in mind i am going to persevere with CMBN and change my tactics to accommodate this new information.....i'm now happy....hurrah p.s The next to last picture shows the HE round that the Stug at the infantry miss and hit the Sherman, the last picture shows the AP round missing after the Sherman was aquired as a target. p.p.s You will also notice that it takes 9 seconds for the Stug to see the infantry and then fire a HE round, which means any MG i had looking down that road may have had that long to fire at the infantry, however i will have to test that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Schultz Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 While I would need the elevations to be sure, I am assuming your StuG saw the tank before the troops because the tank is taller than a man. The LOS tool checks for the exact point your cursor rests upon. You can be out of LOS to a piece of ground just behind a small rise, but a 2 meter tall tank is spotted well before it reaches that spot when approaching from behind the rise. This is the same thing that frustrates folks who check LOS from a tank to a spot, then the main gun cannot see the same spot. The gun is lower than the LOS tool start point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noob Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 While I would need the elevations to be sure, I am assuming your StuG saw the tank before the troops because the tank is taller than a man. The LOS tool checks for the exact point your cursor rests upon. You can be out of LOS to a piece of ground just behind a small rise, but a 2 meter tall tank is spotted well before it reaches that spot when approaching from behind the rise. This is the same thing that frustrates folks who check LOS from a tank to a spot, then the main gun cannot see the same spot. The gun is lower than the LOS tool start point. This is true, i always assumed that the line had to be light blue otherwise there was no LOS, i was dead wrong, when targeting down a road with a tank, as you point out the tanks LOS is elevated, and so it's true LOS to anything higher than ground level is designated by the message on the LOS tool tip and not the colour of the target line, therefore knowing this allows players to position MGs and Infantry squads in such a way as to be able to suppress any infantry that screen an enemy tank as they will roughly know the range the friendly defending tank will spot any infantry, i.e. a about 30 metres less than the tanks true LOS to an enemy tank as shown in the pictures, because infantry are obviously not as tall as a tank and therefore will be able to move further into the defending tanks cover arc before the tank spots them , so as long as any small arms suppressing units have a LOS that covers the area 30 metres before the tanks LOS limit the defending tank should not be distracted by any infantry forward of any enemy armor as they should be supressed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Hmmmm, a 205 word sentence. Probably close to the Guiness Book of Records! Regards KR 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poesel Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Hmmmm, a 205 word sentence. Probably close to the Guiness Book of Records! Pff - only in the feeble english language. 205 words is just a footnote in german. 205 pages - now that might be unusual. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noob Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 Hmmmm, a 205 word sentence. Probably close to the Guiness Book of Records! Regards KR That's the last time i take Methamphetamine before posting a reply 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmox Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 i learnt pretty early the LOS tool isnt reliable and should only be used as a gauge i tend to use my estimation of LOS using my experience with the game i also learnt that cover arcs are dangerous for armor and next to useless with AT guns but i also learnt early not to play this game like CM1 its a realtime game and should be played with this in mind,even if its in PBEM mode the tank in question is indeed in a partial depression and should be hull down along its egress to the already partially IDed spotted Stug. being the stug has a fairly low set main gun,i was confident i could engage it with a reasonable % chance of defeating it. i actually used the infantry as a screen to draw its attention,but the terrain is undultating upwards giving them some cover/chance , i think my timing/judgement was off a couple of seconds as it appears the infantry are spotted 2nd Tank was under slow command Men were under move command as discussed in another thread however,what you see may not be as it appears in some circumstances 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmox Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 i just checked that turn again a little more closely i think the HE shot was actually fired at the infantry and just luck it missed and hit the tank my guys were screaming they spotted it(stug) just as the HE shell flew past em this also explains why how the tank was hit(upper hull) in the first place? at first i thought it came from elsewhere as i was confident that the stug wouldnt be able to see the shermans turret yet so maybe i did time it right after all,yay me:) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 If the screens are posted in chronological order, then the infantry was spotted first. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Schultz Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Plus, Infantry Quick is the same as Armor Slow if you want to keep things moving forward in echelon. May have given the troops a few more seoncd in LOS to get attention. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noob Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 i learnt pretty early the LOS tool isnt reliable and should only be used as a gauge On the contrary the LOS tool is accurate, you can see by looking at the three pictures below that the LOS tool shows my Stug to have a LOS down the road of 440 metres for anything as tall as a tank, and your tank appears at the exact spot the LOS tool said it would, and a LOS of 410 metres for infantry, its just that i didn't know how to interpret the messages on the tool tip properly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noob Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 i just checked that turn again a little more closely i think the HE shot was actually fired at the infantry and just luck it missed and hit the tank Thats exactly what happened. Because i didn't understand the LOS tool tip messages i should of had the cover arc at 441 metres, a full 10 metres further than i had it, and also i should of had some infantry or MG's with a LOS at the 410 metre mark to suppress your infantry so they would hit the deck, thus allowing my tank to not see them and thus not become distracted. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noob Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 If the screens are posted in chronological order, then the infantry was spotted first. That is correct, because the walking troops are higher than ground level but not as large or tall as a tank they can penetrate my tanks cover arc by about 30 metres before my tank sees them, unlike the Sherman who get s spotted as soon as it's in LOS range at 440 metres. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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