BTR
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Part 3 - AT battalion
In light of recent ATGM discussion, we decided to prepare another part, this time dedicated to antitank battalion. It is no secret that overall typical AT capabilities of an MR brigade may be subpar to contemporary conventional targets. However, CMBS AT bat. TOEs are not entirely accurate even to older TOE’s which further diminished typical MR brigade AT capabilities. Before we proceed, a distinction between Artillery Brigade AT battalion and Motor-Rifle Brigade AT battalion needs to be made. AB AT Battalions are much larger and are generally uniquely comprised of Sp. ATGMs such as Khrizantema and Shturm-S. They are not the focus of this though.
1 - MR AT battalions have the following equipment:
All AT battalions have at least one battery of 2A29R “Rapira” (MT-12) guns. Currently Ukrainian side has the proper representation of this artillery formation with both off and on map options available. This should also be done for the Russian side. In fact, a regular MT-12 battery for the Ukrainians is exactly the same as it should be for the Russians. That said, there are some discrepancies with IRL. Every MT-12 battery has a recon squad of 5 people with a PNSR station. These squads come mounted on an MTLB. Battery and squad command being armed with just binoculars for both, Ukrainian and Russian side seems a little weird, please refer to point 3.
Most AT battalions have 2 sp.ATGM batteries. Those batteries are made of two or three ATGM platoons. Each platoon has three ATGM vehicles (as in CMBS) *To note, 9P149 batteries have MTLBs as command vehicles, 9P148 platoons have BRDM-2.
Around two thirds of all sp.ATGM batteries are Shturm-S. As of 2009 around 260 9P148 vehicles were reported by the Russian MoD as both in-storage and in-service. Russian Arms, Military Technology, Analysis of Ru Army, 2012. For comparison, a total of 860 9P149 vehicles was available as of 2012. Russian Arms, Military Technology, Analysis of Ru Army, 2012 We feel that rarity points need to be revised, swapping uncommon values between two vehicles.
As of 2010 AT battalions begun receiving 9P163-2 “Kornet-T” complexes based on BMP-3’s. Confirmed number of of received vehicle is 10 in 2010 Source and 20 in 2013 Source. Judging by government order 14-4-51/982/ЗК from 9.12.2013, a total of 200 9M113M and 9M113MF rockets were delivered. We don’t want to assume there were more vehicles delivered to the army in the years 11, 12, 14 and 15, but that would be our fairest guess based on munitions order. This vehicle would be welcomed in CMBS. [1], [2], [3] .
To reiterate, Khrizantema is absent from AT Battalion equipment nomenclature, and is deployed only in artillery brigades.
2. Motor-rifle brigades have two common AT battalion structures:
- Two batteries of three ATGM platoons plus one “Rapira” battery;
- Two batteries of two ATGM platoons plus two “Rapira” batteries.
It might be worth reflecting both as official available typical formations. If not, then this nuance might be interesting to reflect in scenario building.
3. All command formations, from battery HQ’s to battalion HQ have LPR-1 or equivalent (LPR-2/LPR-3). This piece of equipment was first seen in 1988 TOEs. It is also important to note that AT Battalion officers are usually artillery graduates and have respective knowledge.
Part 4 - General equipment observations (cont.)
-Currently thermobaric and regular HE rockets are universally ignored in CMBS. I’ve touched on them in the armor thread, but they are very relevant here too. Every ATGM system in Russian service today has both HEAT and HE munition option.
-More advanced HE ammunition are not always available for ATGM systems when they should be. One notable example is the 9M120 missile for Shturm-S system. I first had my doubts that it could be mounted and launched from a regular 9P159 vehicle, but the manufacturer’s site says otherwise: Source.
-As of 2014, Shturm-SM is in Service by the Russian MoD. Key difference to Shturm-S is thermal and TV equipment and standard issue 9M120 missile family. This also includes an HE airburst variant. Despite all the web photos of stock Shturm-S being presented as SM, this is actually it: Link.
-While BRDM-2A (CMBS BRDM-2M) are in widespread service, we have been unable to identify similar chassis modifications for the 9P148 complex. As of now we believe this modification does not exist. The military balance 2015 reports Ru MoD fielding over 1000 BRDM-2’s, but they have not been produced for 26 years, which means most of them are storage material. It is currently unknown if only BRDM-2A’s remain in service, but that would be a fair guess.
PS - I understand devs are busy with a lot of projects, but just a short response on whether all of this is being read. Sorry for sounding pushy, we're just trying to help
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BTR
About SBR-3 and other. I read on Ryadovoy-K forum (or Balancer... forgot now) that both Soviet and Russian armies almost don't have trained operators for these devices and this duty mostly was just formality. Though in current war were spotted several SBR-5 among DNR or "vacationist" forces. In UKR force structures these devices almost unseen, though Border Guard service uses some quantity of new "Barsuk" and "Lys" radars.
There are two points here. First, not having trained operators (potentially a correct statement), doesn't equate missing standard issue equipment supplied from the late 70's onwards. Training, or lack thereof can be reflected by "experience" setting. Second, as you said yourself, available equipment tends to crop up in warzones, which we have observed. LNR troops have been spotted operating SBR-3 I believe.
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Considering CMBS conflict, I don't think there would be enought time to reshuffle all TOE's for standard line formation. There are battalion tactical groups though, which can pretty much be adjusted and molded as needed during the conflict.
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Which squads are we talking about? Just fired up a QB and a 7-man rifle squad from BTR had 970 rounds. Another 6-man rifle squad from BMP-3 (no SVD like the 7-man btr group) had 900 rounds. If the PKM guy carries 600 rounds, then there are 3 rifleman left to each carry 1x100 round box?
Upon further experiments, it appears, the gunner and assistant leader combined carries 500 rounds (maybe the gunner just carries it all). Then a single rifleman carries the remaining 400 hundred.
The amount I mentioned, is standard IRL amount. CMBS squads carry too much MG ammo.
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There is a fair amount of what-if or speculative equipment in Black Sea. I don't think there is any more reason to remove these vehicles than the T-90AM or M1A2 Abrams with APS.
One could argue that in difference to T-90AM or the M1A2 APS (or even M1A3 suggested by Panzersaurkrautwerfer), ERA mounted BMP-3M and BMP-2M are older equipment that don't fit in the "what-if" scenario due to being rejected by the MoD around a decade ago. In any case, I wrote "if I had the choice", meaning the removal of those variants is an ideal scenario in my eyes. I do not expect it to happen :).
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I've put this here instead of the bug section so the scenario makers have a chance to jab at realistic orders of battle through the scenario editor.
Sourcing preface. TOEs and ORBATs are considered classified information. That is why you won’t find original document sourcing here. Gathering this information from direct sourcing is also illegal. Most of this is presented “as is” for that exact reason and formation numbers are dropped. Where applicable, general sourcing will be used.
Part 1 - Motor-rifle battalion.
This is presented in an ascending order from squad to battalion unit size. We have deliberately ignored Staff and battalion command, signals and comms platoons, battalion supply platoons and medical platoons. Russian army has three main types of motor-rifle battalions - BMP, BTR and MTLB. Unless the type is specified, consider universal application.
1- Some squads in CMBS tend to have both PKP’s and PKM’s. That is a dubious combination unconfirmed by actual deployment personnel or exercise reports. PKP shares 80% of the kit with PKM, so general replacement happened very quickly. However, there are some remote formations that still have only PKM’s. To note, they more than likely don’t apply to CMBS rapid deployment scenario. It is important to note though, few BMP battalions that still have not received PKP’s, use RPK-74M’s on squad level. BMP Battalions that have received PKP’s use them both on platoon and squad level. Consequently BMP platoons can either have 4xPKP, or 1xPKM+3xRPK-74M.
2- PKM with a tripod mount is called PKMS. Effectively the tripod mount has not been used since the late 80’s. That is due to two things, necessary accuracy dictated by PKM’s SAW role was achievable without the mount devaluing increased weight over marginal accuracy gain. Source - PK, PKM, PKS, PKMS, PKB, PKMB and PKT manual page 1, 1979, MoD Published.
3- Standard squad carried ammo for PKP/PKM is 600 rounds. 2 ammo boxes of 200 rounds and 2 ammo boxes of 100 rounds.Current MG rounds carried are overabundant, even if considering that each squad member carries an additional 100 round box like in the Chechen campaign, the MG load is overrepresented. The Military Balance 2013. — P. 370.4- AKS74U for RPG carrier is no longer the only option. The swap to AK-74M for RPG operators begun back in 1994. Both variations tend to crop up from time to time, so it is only fair to assume both are still in valid service. It is hard to determine which variation is the preferred one by the army.
5- Starting from the 80’s AGS operators were armed with AKS74U’s. Somewhere from mid-90’s they begun switching them to AK-74M’s, so both rifle variants can be found. PM’s are not considered an effective infantry weapon in the Russian army and can only be found as a sidearm on officers. Example.
6- With most brigades, SVD operators are moved out of general motor-rifle companies into a specialised marksman company. As such, SVD’s are not generally present in motor-rifle companies at all.
7- Most BMP motor-rifle companies have 11 vehicles, 3 per platoon and 2 for command. This is a leftover from when companies had a organic MANPADS section. There are alternative, “strengthened”, brigade companies with organic AGL’s. These companies have 12 (one AGL squad) or 14 (full AGL platoon of 3 squads) BMP vehicles. Some experimental ORBATS also include 4 BMP’s per platoon instead of 3, but I am not sure this variation should be considered until it is more widespread.
8- Every company is equipped with a short-range doppler-effect recon station and has a one trained operator for it. They are usually attached to the command squad. These have been standard issue since late 60’s. First such station, PSNR-1, was introduced to service in 1966, albeit not on company level back then. SBR-3, the first doppler station for company-level use was introduced into active service in 1976. Tactically, this recon station is similar to company-level small UAV’s used by the US army. In terms of CMBS, there are two stations that need to be covered -SBR-3 “Fara/Fara-U” from 1976 and SBR-5 “Fara-1” (Headlight) introduced into service in 1999. Ultimately, the code for this is already in game with BRM-1 and 3 using PSNR-5 and PSNR-5M.
General Specs (SBR-3) are:
Operators - 1
Operational band - Unknown
Effective coverage - Distance 3km, azimuth scanning unknown.
Effective detection - Man 900m, Vehicle 2.5-3km.
Average detection error - Unknown
Operation time - 8 hours at 20 °C, 2 hours at -40 °C
Weight - 18.5kg.
Deployment time - 5 mins.
Source: Here + Recon Sgt. Handbook, 1989 MoD Published.
http://i.imgur.com/2P4lJFG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RqZ73QX.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/50tyFlU.png
http://i.imgur.com/01LmrDL.jpg
General Specs (SBR-5) are:
Operators - 1
Operational band - 2cm (J) band
Effective coverage - Distance 5km, 24°/45°/90°/120° discrete levels of azimuth scanning.
Effective detection - Man 2km, Vehicle 4km
Average detection error - Distance 20m, 1° of angle error.
Operation time - 6 hours of autonomous operation form a battery.
Weight - 16.5kg regular, 10.5kg patrol variant.
Deployment time - 5 mins.
Source: Here.
http://i.imgur.com/FJV0lZK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZqrHYek.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rxyRuEN.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2FHK1M0.jpg
There is also Fara-PV allegedly in in service, and Fara-VR with passed army and state trials as of 2012. Getting the regular SBR-3 first should be the first step though. As with any piece of equipment, there are pros and cons that should be reflected in CM. The major pro for doppler stations is the relative transparency of foliage and small landscape variations. The con is slow movement is very hard or impossible to detect depending on size of the object in question.9 - The are no weapons platoons in BTR and MTLB companies. MG squads were dropped in early 90’s due to sufficient MG saturation in line motor-rifle platoons. The proper term is Anti-tank squad.10 - In CMBS BMP battalions are missing engineer and recon platoons found in their BTR and MTLB counterparts. Considering this and point 7, the minimal IRL BMP count per platoon is 42 and not 34 like we currently have in CMBS.
11 - 2S34s have not made it to battalion level integration despite active internet rumour. However nice that might have been, 2S34’s need to be removed from mortar selection for battalions. There are no foreseen plan to introduce 120 or 122mm SP Howitzers to battalion organic support at the moment.
12 - Current motor-rifle battalion mortar support is comprised of 2S12 (120mm) and 2B9’s (82mm), both of which the latter is not present in CMBS. A general mortar battery is comprised of 2-4 platoons of 4 or 3 mortars in each platoon, and a command squad per platoon which is currently missing. Platoons are have homogenous equipment, but batteries are generally mixed between 120mm and 82mm artillery pieces. In difference to general perception, 4 mortar platoons are more commonly integrated into current formations than 3 mortar ones. To add, every mortar platoon has one RPG-7 as available kit. Soviet ORBATs sometimes had “driver-AT operator” MOS description as well.
13 - MTLB and BTR battalion recon platoon look differently IRL. It has four squads (1 command and 3 recon). First recon squad is a surveillance one, has 7 members including vehicle crew of 2 and is organised around a more powerful doppler recon station*, a laser designator and two RATELO operators. This squad is directly plugged into the C4 network wherever that is deployed. This squad is armed with AK-74M’s only, but carries an RPG-7 in their vehicle. Two other recon squads of 7 are organised more traditionally (like we already have in-game), except they also have a “senior-scout” role who by TOE’s should have a VSS or comparative weapon, and one RATELO operator.
*To note, if first recon squad of battalion recon platoon is riding a BRM-1K, then the doppler station is a more powerful PNSR variant requiring 2 operators. If any other vehicle is used, SBR-5 and derivatives are operated.14 - Engineer platoons have four squads IRL, with 1 command and 3 engineer squads. Equipment isn’t necessarily an issue here since CM handles engineering with a very high degree of abstraction.Part 2 - General equipment observations.- CMBS has over represented Motor-rifle NVG equipment. Night scopes, usually within 2+/3 GEN, are often assigned to AT gunner, MG gunner and squad leader. Currently there are no NVG sight and monocles in service with motor-rifle troops. We are not sure how things will change in two years.
- Perhaps a bit of an obvious one, but BMP-2M is not in Russian service, was never planned for it and there are currently no plans to introduce it in the future. It is in full blown Algerian service, so this vehicle might be best suited for future CMSF titles. If I had the choice, I would petition this vehicle’s removal along with ERA BMP-3. The latter being a late 90’s development which couldn’t even make it to army trials.
- With a high degree of confidence, I can say that BTR-82 with KPVT never entered service. MoD supply and procurement documents. Regular BTR-80’s with KPVT though, are in active service by both the Russian, and Ukrainian armies. I think removing the 82 and introducing the 80 would be a good move towards authenticity.
Naval Infantry BTR-80’s, 2014 caspian sea
Army BTR-80’sб 2015
- BMP-1P on the other hand still remains in service in fair numbers (around 500 reported). Potentially these are vehicles used for training purposes. Additionally, this is a vehicle still used by the Ukrainian army in fair amounts I believe, and while I am against bringing junk to a CMBS setting, I would still value this over BMP-2M. It is a similar concept with the BTR-70M which is fairly active use.
BMP-1P recent exercise application:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDCvTfuatYU
- http://i.imgur.com/ZLW8noa.jpg
- http://i.imgur.com/XtKEHsg.jpg
BTR-70M in recent service:*To note, older equipment is often used for training, so its proliferation in active formations may be overstated.- 2S24 isn’t a mortar per say, it is a self propelled base for 2B24 mortar. Together then make 2K32 complex which isn’t in service and there are no plans for it. I would consider removing this vehicle. They are in limited service by the ministry of interior - not the army: Source
Prepared, formatted and brough to you by BTR and Wieking. I hope this provides the Devs with enough information to make adjustements towards a more authentic, and more modern Russian ORBATS. I also hope that this provides a bit of a guide for scenario makers. -
If you want my opinion, this looks like a Shtora jammer was operational on the Ukranian side. Especially the second time where the missile loses guidance mid-flight. It is possible, since BM Oplot is equipped with Shtora-1. I don't know if BM Oplot is present in the scenario though. It is still interesting as to why the crew chose an GLATGM, range here seems permisive of a HE shot, even counting inferior ballistics and, therefore, accuracy.
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So multiple manpads can simultaneously track and engage multiple targets?
From what I gathered, the radar station collects target data, after which the software analyzes and selects the best operator to track and engage appropriate targets. Another key difference from Igla that I'm reading is that the guidance is now triple spectrum like on the Strela-M3. Theoretically that should mean that it is harder to trick the missile, and that the aiming is more precise.
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Still feels like an incremental advance.
The main improvement is the automated target identification and tracking system wired between MANPADS holders which wasn't there for Igla.
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Since this is a general Armor topic, a couple of my observations about T-90A's from Syria:
http://i.imgur.com/fA4k3Q6.jpg
Front mudguard has been swapped for a pre-89 design, possibly due to the original one being lost in combat. Shtora jammers are not in combat position (leveled), but are in illumination position, meaning some lower levels NVG's might have been used. Gunner's hatch suggests these are pre 2006 models, but are definitely post early 2004 since these are French thermals.
http://i.imgur.com/WOoyUyH.jpg
Interesting to see the fourth K-5 section is finally being mounted, but similarly interesting to see front-most K-5 section missing. This suggests that it is still to loose in urban combat and comes of too easily.
Perhaps the second image is the more interesting in terms of CMBS. There is a high chance T-90A's and T-72B3's would have full four side ERA sections in your hypothetical face-off with US and Ukrainian invasion.
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I am interested, how accurate are things for the US side? Is CMFS ammo retrieval modelling for M1 included in CMBS (I would imagine it is)?
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As of 2014, there were 2 brigade complexes (72 Launchers if memory serves me right) and 2 battalion complexes (24 launchers, as I recall) (source). That was fairly well covered in the media at the time so you can find more than one article about the Verba acquisition. Brigade complexes were assigned to the Army, while battalion complexes were assigned to the VDV. Allegedly the 98th Airborne Division got them (source), while it is unknown which Army formation had the luck to receive them first. Today the manufacturer reported that further 2 brigade complexes and 2 battalion complexes were delivered to the troops, so further 72+24 launchers in total (source). As you can already put together, a total of 192 launchers are in service as of 2015, most of them with the army. Therefore, adding them to CM:BS seems like an appropriate option.
Now, I am no MANPADS buff, and I do not know what variables are considered in CM. However, right off the bat Verba in comparison to Igla-S:
- has 400m more overall range;
- 1000m higher altitude ceiling;
- Can intercept targets with a 100m/s faster top speed.
- The system comes with a small, independent radar station,
- CnC integration and some sort of guidance automation system (I'm not clear on what it does).
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I figured I wasn't the first person to bring this up, but it felt like having this here for the record would advance overall discussion. I see why this is a gameplay decision, but I also feel there is too little penalty for bunching up infantry and tanks. I have tested APS damage to infantry and I couldn't conclude whether that was the blast from RPG's damaging infantry or the APS itself. I have also tested ERA discharges, and they don't seem to impact infantry behavior.
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Another thing I noticed, is that a tank firing 2-3m away from an infantry squad doesn't really affect their suppression state. I think overpreassure and noise should factor in how infantry behaves around armor. Not to mention the muzzle blast does nothing for infantry laying underneath a 125mm cannon. I don't know if this has been brought up before, but here is a bit of a visual aid:
125mm guns have very similar danger zones I believe.
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Mmm, the front (unadjusted for angle) on a BMP-3 is
- Upper front hull 18mm
- Lower front hull 10mm+70mm (air)+60mm.
- Front side 60mm
Gomiryn O., Shumilov A., Armor news #5, MoD Published, 1991.
I don't see how M903 SLAP can do anything at 500, perhaps closer if it manages to hit upper front hull which is a lot smaller then it looks.
As a bonus though, NATO pen is calculated and rated at 50+1% chance perforation, USA I believe usually only does penetration depth into RHA for example, and the Soviet system rates penetration (and subsequently armor) at 70% chance perforation with 30% energy carryover as average value. So mm RHA values are very ambiguous.
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Things like this are very difficult for us to simulate. However, I will make sure it's being discussed.
Steve
I gave it a bit of though, I and I still think this sort of detailing is needed. While for the majority of the audience might view REDFOR vehicles as just part of the "scenery", ultimately attention to detail is what sets CM apart from anything in the operational-tactical bracket of PC land wargaming market. In other words, correct details equals a better product.
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Reads to me like BM Oplots maybe could have 3VBK-25 (although I am not sure any were supplied to Ukraine) and, more plausibly, 3VBM-17. The rest is solid early-mid 80's ammo tech then.
Off to BMP-3 based vehicles (still armor right
):- 9P157-2 has 15 rockets in storage (correct), but only 1 rocket loaded (while there are two tubes)
- 9P157-2 has 9M123 ATGM listed instead of AT-15 Springer*.
- 9P157-2 doesn't appear to have HE-T 9M123F ATGM as a viable ammunition type. Link.
*That's a little weird the game uses NATO designations as they are very ambiguous and lump together guidance systems and missiles. Actually the point about absence of all HE thermobaric ATGMs is an interesting one. BMP-3, T-72B3, T-90A and AM's could potentially receive some flavor.
- BMP-3/M has 22 100mm rounds, 3ATGMs, 195AP, 305HE and 2000 MG readily available. It's the same sotry as with tank autoloaders not being modeled. Link.
- BMP-3/M 30mm and 100mm total loadouts are correct, however a fully loaded coax MG has 2000 rounds, not 1K as CMBS has it. Link.
- BMP-3/M ammo stowage can store additional 18 100mm rounds or 250 30mm rounds. Some flexibility would be nice. Link.
- BMP-3K only has the readily availabe rounds (22 10mm rounds, 3ATGMs, 195AP, 305HE and 2000 MG), and does not have additional stored ammo. Link + BMP-3K operational manual 1998, Book 2, Page 16.
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I mantissed ammunition mismatches for Ukrainan tanks, before 1.03 was issued, but possibly already wasn't have a time to make something.
So, looking on T-HEAT abbreviation, this means that UKR tanks in the game have TANDEM HEAT rounds ? If yes, this is mistake!
Doesn't the Ukranian army have 3VBK-25? That is a tandem charge (with 3BK-29M charge). Some report it being available from as early as 1992.
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-best info found previously was that only T-90AK, not production T-90A, was equipped with Ainet.
-T-HEAT is abbreviation for Tandem-HEAT, not HEAT-Tracer.
-pretty sure the T-90AM HE can work as airburst or point-detonating in game, except in a few specific situations (walls and open roofs) where airburst is always used even though it might not always be optimal.
-Got it. The system is in relatively widespread service I believe. Perhaps the confusion came from Ainet being mounted on command T-80U's and command T-90's. T-90A's all have that as standard I believe. The tech itself isn't something groundbreaking either and has been around for nearly 30 years.
-Understood. Didn't make the connection in English
.-That doesn't make much sense considering how ainet system works. For airburst to work, range must be acquired via the rangefinder, then this information is passed onto the fuse before it is loaded and fired. As far as I managed to gather, the fuse doesn't work on contact, only on distance.
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So, the full loadouts for Soviet-based and Russian tanks CMBS are the following:
- T-90A 21HE+ 8T-HEAT+ 4ATGM+ 14APFSDS+ 300AP-I+ >2K 7.62
- T-72B3 23HE+ 6T-HEAT+ 4ATGM+ 13APFSDS+ 300AP-I+> 2K 7.62
- T-90AM 21ABHE+ 8T-HEAT+ 4ATGM+ 14APFSDS+ >2K 7.62
- BM Oplot 14ABHE+ 4T-HEAT+ 8ATGM+ 10APFSDS+ 450AP-I+ >1K 7.62
- BM Bulat 14HE+ 4T-HEAT+ 8ATGM+10APFSDS+ 300AP-I+ >1K 7.62
- T-64BV 14HE+ 4T-HEAT+ 10APFSDS+ 300AP-I+ >1K 7.62
Conclusions are:
- T-90A's total ammo capacity is 47 vs real-life 42. Coax rounds are also more numerous that the real life vehicle (2K exactly IRL). Source.
- T-72B3's total ammo capacity is 46 vs real-life 45. Coax rounds are also more numerous that the real life vehicle (2K exactly IRL). T-72B operational manual 1992, Book 2, pages 47-52.
- T-90AM's total ammo capacity is 47 vs real-life 40. 7.62 rounds look fine, but then I can't really tell how many there are. Should be 2000 (coax) + 800 (MG). Source.
- BM Oplot's total ammo count is 36 vs real-life 46. Coax and HMG are correct. Source.
- T-64BM's total ammo count is 36 which is correct. Coax and HMG are correct too. Source.
- T-64BV's total ammo count is 28 vs real life count of 36. Coax and HMG are correct. T-64B and B1 operational manual 1983, Book 2, Page 15 and inlay 5.
Other thoughts on the matter:
- Why is a less funded military more outfitted with expensive GLATGMs on a tank per tank basis? Even if one was to argue that there are less tanks overall, supplying 8 guided munitions per tank makes little sense considering how seldom they are used. Perhaps there lies the answer to Ukrainian propensity for spamming ATGM's from tanks when it makes little tactical sense to do that.
- I am under the impression that T-90, T-80UK and T-90A had Ainet for quite some time now, and that this system was first trialed on the T-90S. If the T-90AM has ABHE, then the T-90A should have them too.
- Which leads me into the next random though. Why is it that T-90AM doesn't have regular contact-fuse HE rounds? Theoretically it makes the AM much less effective vs urban fortifications then the B3, 90A and pretty much any other tank.
- Last but not least, isn't it HEAT-T and not T-HEAT ?
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As I understand it the game is being too kind to Soviet/Russian tanks because the auto loader can only handle 22 rounds without a lengthy reload process. Likewise, using the ATGM rounds involves going outside. Yes?
Things like this are very difficult for us to simulate. However, I will make sure it's being discussed.
Steve
Partially yes. To condense the manual for you in terms of time values:
- Autoloaded rounds are reloaded at a normal rate.
- Regularly stored rounds are reloaded at around 3-1 rounds per minute.
- The last 3 or 4 rounds (depending on the tank) are reloaded at around 2-1 rounds per minute rate only when the tank is stationary.
There is no connection between using ATGM and going outside at all :). The ATGM is stored and loaded as a regular round. I'm not sure where you picked that up.
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All TOW's aside of 2B have a minimal arming range of 65m and that M2A3 crew knows that well
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Oh Steve, since you signed in this topic, can you comment on our autoloder discussion on the previous page?
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.![[1]](http://i.imgur.com/UacQFiA.jpg){kind=link}
![[2]](http://i.imgur.com/qbe5jml.jpg){kind=link}
![[3]](http://i.imgur.com/8Caqi7v.jpg){kind=link}
Modern Russian infantry battalion structure
in Combat Mission Black Sea
Posted · Edited by BTR
They are getting increasingly hard to find outside of Naval Infantry. Ah, ninja'd with pics, I'll add one more for reference from INDRA 2014 [1].