ChappyCanuck
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Posts posted by ChappyCanuck
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"Sburke ran a test, posted the results, and showed how it totally demolishes your stance. BFC relies on data, not "It is broken and needs fixing...now", statements."
Yup, I'm totally demolished bahahahahaha
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You want a real test? How about hundreds of hours of observation from many different gamers on this site playing dozens of different scenarios...and strangely enough we all have noticed the same observation. It is broken and needs fixing...now
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I'm willing to test this stuff...that is what I get paid for.
Why do you say the bren carriers protect their crews better than 251s?
Let's make a list of what's "wrong" and then go from there.
Within the game, they are better. A common tactic that a friend of mine and I use is to load the univeral/bren carriers with sections and use them as a swarming mobile reserve. We do this often, and while there are sometimes casualties of course, the rate is nowhere near the Sdkfz rate. Once I watched three replacement gunners get killed in one turn on a 251...they weren't close to the enemy small arms fire, and they were moving. This would make a great Monty Python skit as the 251 crew argues who has to sit in the gunner position next!
I am currently playing a CMRT Grossdeutchsland assault scenario that is all halftracks (mostly 251) - no tanks or other vehicles. And I have watched 20-30 gunners/replacements die. I suppressed, I prepped with arty, I flanked...I did all the correct tactical procedures, yet those Russian small arms were eliminating my 251 crews with ease...laughably so. And at distances over 150 meters. It was uncanny. It was wrong. So I hope that this thing gets corrected. The 251 was designed as a fighting battle taxi and was employed as such. It was not meant to be a truck, it was meant to deposit the soldiers on or near the objective while maintaining high protection against arty shrapnel and small arms fire. The game does not portray this well at all at this time.
Thanks for reading
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To be honest, my complaint isn't substantiated by any test. It's based on hours and hours (I own CMBN from the beginning) of playing the game.
I play German and US a lot, Commonwealth less, but as far as I know I use the same play style for everyone. And with US/Canadian/British/Polish halftracks I never experienced the hair raising horror that the kill rate of Sdkfzgunners gave me. Over and over again.
After some time one does try to be oh so carefull with those Sdkfz-thinghy's, but even with the greatest precautions those gunners get one in the head.
The title of this thread shows that I'm not the only one who thinks it's a Sdkfz problem, it specifically mentions the Hanomag. No other halftracks.
Totally agree Seedor....even the small universal/bren carriers (that I think have better armour than the 251, but as a passenger you are sitting well up in the air) have better crew protection in the game. Even the other Sdkfz models are not a problem - the 75, 37 and 20mms...just the 251 (not sure about the smaller 250).
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well if the player follows the same tactical advice the SS frequently took, the in game effect is gonna be yeah they will take more casualties. So in that sense CM is dead on. You drive forward in a car and yeah my guys are gonna kill you. You drive a hannomag near enough to my unsuppressed infantry and yeah my guys are gonna kill you.
My experience in CM is - if the enemy isn't suppressed, then I am dismounting. If the enemy is suppressed then I may consider other options. I have often used them to drive forward and drop off teams at a hedgerow once I know whatever is behind that hedgerow is already cowering. If they aren't a lucky grenade or zook is gonna deal me a whole lot of hurt. (hmm seems I recall certain truck in Bois de Baugin many years ago Jon.....yeah like that.)
If someone is contending here that the Germans willy nilly drove into the assault on halftracks as a regular practice, I'd need some actual evidence as I don't have much recollection of that. There were a couple incidents on the Eastern front, but those were few and far between. On the western front, there'd be so many flaming wrecks and it wouldn't be coming from aircraft. A 57mm eats halftracks for appetizers. I could as easily point to the US push to the Rhine where they just hopped onto trucks and blew through the German lines and say- Hey US soldiers should be able to ride into battle on a deuce and a half...I know how that would end.
If you want BF to change this you'll need to convince Steve that -
1 it was German practice and
2 that they were able to do so without sustaining significant casualties.
But you need to do more than say troops in a hannomag should duck and that the SS were stupid though individually both of those might be true.
Irregardless of what may or may have not happened in history...this needs fixing. It is blatantly broken. And if you cannot see that then no matter what training manual, historical document, etc that you, I, or someone else may quote, will make any difference at all. It's really, really dumb.
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JonS: you are missing my point entirely, and needlessly nitpicking Bozowans with generalities. This is a game mechanic issue that makes a crew member/passenger ridiculously exposed. I get it that casualties occur, and there is risk in riding lighter vehicles. But this vehicle was a platform for getting the soldiers as safe as possible onto the objective. It is not made of cardboard, and it should provide far greater protection against small arms/arty fire than it does. There is something wrong when it is FAR riskier to ride a fast moving, metal plated vehicle onto the objective than to sprint/walk/crawl/run. I mean really....what's the point? Just produce trucks instead! The Germans developed and produced these vehicles to do exactly what we CAN'T do with them now in this game. I would say that in itself is worth BF doing a sober second look at this issue.
When I was an infantry officer, I much preferred riding in a M113 behind the tanks, versus running across an open "battlefield" to keep up - protection, protection, protection.
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Maybe the fact that practically EVERY sdkfz251 gunner gets shot immediately (even by stengun's more than 100 meters distance while they (the stengun shooters) are seriously supressed, and EVERY replacement gunner gets shot immediately, gives some players - like myself - the serious impression that something is wrong here.
Statistically SOME Sdkfz gunners should be able to survive, but it seems that in the game they have a 99,9% chance to get hit. Instantly.
That isn't believable to me.
Exactly.....there is no doubt, after playing this game for years, that there is something wrong with this game mechanic
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Back to my original post: I think that the crews/passengers of halftracks take excessive casualties in this game...it's almost like the small arms arms fire coming at them are heat seeking rounds. The fact that infantry soldiers, who are speeding along in a fairly well protected armoured vehicle, and presenting almost no target at all as they crouch down (exception plunging fire), really should have a much higher survival rate against small arms fire than illustrated by this game. And that is my opinion.
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I imagine they sent theirs away because of the dominance of allied air power in the western theater at this time...any strafing activity at all would kill them and their occupants quite easily
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While I agree that halftracks are NOT assault vehicles, their use was/is to accompany said assault vehicles. US doctrine was not German doctrine, and as you can see from the following passage on Hanomags, their design/protection was superior to US halftracks:
"The initial idea was for a vehicle that could be used to transport a single squad of 10 panzergrenadiers to the battlefield protected from enemy small arms fire, and with some protection from artillery fire. In addition, the standard mounting of at least one MG 34 or MG 42 machine gun allowed the vehicle to provide support by fire for the infantry squad once they had disembarked in battle. Later in the war, doctrine changed as they found they could fight the battle from inside the vehicle, and greater weaponry was added to increase firepower. Unlike thin-skinned US halftracks, the 251 could survive small arms fire on the battlefield.The armour plates were designed to stop penetration by standard rifle/heavy mg bullets (like the Mauser 7.9X57mm bullet) by using both metal thickness and armour sloping. The fairly vertical front-facing plates were 14.5mm thick; the sides were steeply angled, V-shape and just 8mm thick, saving weight. These plates were both safe against the normal (non-tungsten) rifle AP round which could pierce about 8mm of vertical armour. This German use of angled plate to reduce penetration, and on their similar armoured car designs, reveals that their military were fully aware of the benefits of sloped armour from early on."
Interesting stuff eh?
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I understand all of the game mechanics listed above, and I use the halftracks that way as well. But is it an accurate portrayal?
It really is uncanny how easily the crew members of these fast moving vehicles are picked off while they move during a game.
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I am surprised this hasn't been fixed yet.
The German halftrack, carrying a squad with gunner at the ready (behind his parchment paper glacis plate), travels quickly down a road. The soldiers in the rear have, at most, their heads and shoulders exposed. A tiny target, protected by a metal wall, and moving at fairly high speeds. They are suddenly engaged by small arms fire at over 100 meters, and one by one (or more) the gunner and the squad are cut to shreds....sometimes a new squad member moves to the gunner position and one by one they are eliminated.
How silly. So much for an "ARMOURED" personnel carrier. It would be safer to just walk, completely exposed, at slower speeds, without protection...at least then the soldiers could react and go to ground or something.
I play the Germans.....a lot. And time and time again this event has happened. But never so blatantly ridiculous as the CMRT scenario, "Counterattack at Wilkowischken". As the German player, you have several companies worth of mounted panzergrenadiers...yes, halftracks everywhere. And the unbelievable begins as your infantry move forward in their paper mache vehicles. It really is ridiculous. So ridiculous that once again I must repeat: I am surprised this hasn't been fixed yet.
Anyone else feel my pain?
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OK Commanders, your time is near......
Just some clarifications/reminders before things progress:
C Coy Comd (Ian) - note that all the attachments that D Coy currently has (ATGs, FOO, etc) become yours as soon as you arrive. If you choose to leave them under Stonecutter's command that is entirely up to you - but note that they are your resources for the next hour. Also note that you have 2 x Kittyhawk missions, one at 13:15 and one at 13:30. I have also confirmed with Koh that A Coy will arrive behind you at 13:15 hours. They are the Battlegroup reserve and fall under your command for the next hour. Use A Coy as you see fit.
D Coy Comd, Cbt Tm Stonecutter, Hasty P's (Frank) - Frank you have a lot of odds and sods to help C Coy achieve its mission. Once that mission is achieved (investing Casa Berardi) seek pursuit opportunities towards Cider Crossroads. For D Coy (with rolled in B Coy), have them follow up a tactical bound behind, but use your judgement if you need them for a hasty attack/pursuit. The Hasty P's do not arrive until 13:15, but their position may provide a flanking element of surprise, and may be the "can opener" for defeating the Germans in the next hour.
I hope you guys have lots of coordination and most of all, lots of fun. I'm looking forward to the turn files and AARs!
Go get em!
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Good job nailing that halftrack, Frank. The second one doesn't have long to live either......almost H-Hour guys....
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D Coy has weathered the storm.....the Germans have lost interest in trying to pry them open.
Ian & Frank: your time is about to come...please have a quick refresher of the orders and let me know if you guys have any questions/concerns for the next phase of operations
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Great story Frank! The Germans have been hesitant after this turn of events. Buying time.....
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Hey Frank I just got caught up on the last 4 turns...good job smoking a MkIV and I see the Kittyhawk finally arrived and made a new well
He appears to have withdrawn in a defensive stance, placing a ring around D Coy. Your mortars are giving him no rest. I am looking forward to the one hour mark...... -
Nice work on the MkIII, Snake! I just finished watching the movie. Hold those buggers off - cavalry on the way.....
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Hey everyone, I am back from Finland! I had a blast eating reindeer pizza, reindeer steak and drinking Finnish vodka
I am very jet lagged, however, and will be back in action tomorrow hopefully, to catch up -
Hey guys....I am leaving for Finland today for the World Junior Hockey Tourney, and I won't be back until 7 Jan. I will be unable to watch any movies at all, but will have access to the forum. Have a good holiday!
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Appropriately, today is the Regimental Birthday for the Royal Canadian Regiment. It was also on this day, in 1943, that the Regiment was holed up at Cider Crossroads. The initial assault on Ortona from the crossroads went horribly wrong, and the Regiment, already bled, lost significant casualties. It was here, among the few surviving officers, that the legendary "Ortona Toast" was born. Major Strome Galloway (B Coy Comd, who would survive the war and go on to write several books) was one of those officers. The toast consisted of rum, water and sugar, and was drunk out of plain white mugs (this tradition is still done within the Regiment today). They toasted the birthday of the Regiment on a most bloody day for the Regiment.
Pro Patria
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Very nice coverage of the battle. Thanks for posting. It is tough still working this one with all the new toys in the CMFB site drawing viewers away.
Kohl probably has some ideas of pulling the audience back but he'd get in hot water like before...
Looking forward to the next installment.
Heinrich505
Thanks Heinrich! You are one of the few who read these and even fewer who comment. Much appreciated!
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2nd Battle of Dommelin
Minutes 6-(+3)
The 2nd Battle for Dommelin is over! The result was a draw....the Irish have maintained control of Deelshurk and the woods to the west, while the Germans re-took Dommelin and maintained a grip on Valkensgaard.
I am convinced that if I had not withdrawn my forces south at the start of the battle, I would have been defeated in detail. The Germans had way too many paras, vehicles, arty and they would have steamrolled over me as I would have tried to defend in small pockets. As it was, I forced the paras to advance a long distance in the open, allowing my arty, mortars and tanks to ravage them constantly from afar. The four Jagdpanthers were a problem though, and without doubt they won the tank battle portion of the battle. If you looked at the pictures I posted, I had peppered his panzers with 75mm shot that was totally ineffective at longer range - no surprise, but one can always hope for a critical hit. As it was, a combination of one APDS round and grenades from an infantryman killed one (see below)
Above: "Grenade!"
Above: scratch one Jagdpanther
In the final minutes of the battle, Cpl Noble and his 6lber crew once again displayed their skill in immobilising another:
Above: 2nd Jagdpanther out of the battle....immobilised
The RAF was a total bust. They arrived way too late to be of any importance. I was relying on them to knock out at least one of the Jagdpanthers. One finally showed up, and proceeded to target already dead paras:
Above: Pssst. Hey RAF...see those giant metal things a couple hundred meters away? Yeah we really needed you to hit them, and not the already dead guys....
This battle illustrated the point that sometimes you just have to withdraw and give up ground in order to survive and prepare for future operations. It was fun and I am looking forward to the 3rd Battle of Dommelin...
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I killed the first Jagdpanther with grenades after the crew bailed....the 2nd was immobilised
He appears to have withdrawn in a defensive stance, placing a ring around D Coy. Your mortars are giving him no rest. I am looking forward to the one hour mark......
Why ride the suicidal Hanomag halftrack when you can walk?
in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy
Posted
In March, 1945, the US War Department published a very detailed handbook on German military forces (of which I own a modern, printed copy). It not only describes how the Germans trained, but also how they fought AND modified their tactics in great detail. For example, on page 221:
"The coordination between tanks and Panzer Grenadiers moving into combat on armored half-tracks is similar to the technique employed in a purely armored formation,since the armored half-tracks are not only troop-carrying vehicles but also combat vehicles. When the terrain is favorable for tank warfare, the Panzer Grenadiers in their armored half-tracks follow immediately with the second wave (150 meters behind), after the first tank wave has overrun the opponent's position. A deep and narrow formation is employed. After the penetration, the main mission of the Panzer Grenadiers is to overcome the enemy positions which survived the first wave."
Like Bozowans, I have presented another reference to their use in battle