VasFURY

Saferight, was that video supposed to show promotion of militaristic expansionist aggressive culture? If yes, im sorry, I didnt see it. I already explained earlier in this thread the significance of the Victory Day parade to the Russian People - it was also said during this video - that its primary aim is to remember the fallen. Same parade has been happening even when the West wasnt as opposed to Russia as it is now. The guy in the vid said that the Russians are wearing the same ribbons, as are worn by the separatists. He did not explain, that the symbol is a Ribbon of St. George, which has actually existed and been worn at similar parades Since about 2005 (the 60th anniversary), and it just so happens that it was the Separatists, who decided to adopt this as their symbol. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon_of_Saint_George The only anti-american words I can hear, are by old veterans, who grew up in the days of the Cold war, and who's blood drips with old Soviet propaganda, because they dont want to know or believe any other way. Oh, and Kim of course :-). I think "Expansionist" and "Aggressive" are the key words that we need to see as being promoted by the State. Russians have been militaristic since generations ago, so thats nothing new.

Sburke - how do you see this? Not calling you out or anything, I just want to see how you understand this to be taking place? (The other points you listed, yes, I can see some of them taking place). But this one is a big one. I havent seen it in my visits to Russia. How do you see it?

Exactly Agusto!

Ah! Awesome, so Huey drops can be 'simulated' if vietnam were to be built in the current engine.

@LaCroix, Come on bro, dont shy away from the posting. Those guys are expressing their opinion on how THEY see the conflict. You express on how YOU see it. Ultimately there is no right or wrong. Just because they dont agree with what you say, doesnt mean you shouldnt say it. If you hadnt inotially posted what you posted, and if the others hadn't responded, I personally would have never realised the severity of that situation (call me ignorant or whatever). Granted, you are not here to satisfy my curiosity, but it was indeed interesting to read the discussion stemming from your posts.

I was wrong, not 18%, just checked and its closer to 8% (I thought there were more, taking into account the Asian and African Population in the UK)

Holien, I have some arguments to make to your points, to back up why I have said what Ive said, but ultimately I think we both produced our opinions, on which others can base their own opinions and judgements. Otherwise we will just go back and forth - ultimately, yes some of my examples were liberal (I wouldnt say "quite", anyone having a deeper look into what I have written will find but there is evidence to be found out there on the net to support my words), but I was trying to get a point across, that for all the mocking that is done on the forum of the Russian state, ultimately it does a pretty decent job of reasonably looking after the majority of its citizens (apart from the factor of alienation from the whole world). And of course I pay taxes! This country gave me an education, a good livelyhood, and opportunity to travel the world freely (British passport is great for visa's, as opposed to Russian one!) and to see how people live elsewhere. For the most part, life is pretty decent here, despite all my rants and complaints above - better than most other places that I have visited (aside from Panama! I would freakin love to live in Panama City!) So, yes I complain, but ultimately i am blessed to be a citizen of the UK, having migrated here with my parents, who had nothing to their name 20 years ago. But I still do love my homeland and the people there. And regarding pussy riots church performance, sure, they can do that here in a church. What if they did that in a mosque though? And you had pressure on the government from all the Islamic groups, who actually represent what, 18 or so percent of the British population? You think that would have gone unpunished? Russians are very VERY serious about their church. There was a HUGE outcry in Russia after they did what they did. Im not a particularly devout church goer, but knowing peoples mentality back home, even I thought what they did was very crass and stupid, and offensive to a significant degree. Ok, im going to shut up now and re-read Moria's post.

@BlackMoira +1 Kinda makes me want to shut up now...

Holien, i earn just over 42k, im taxed 46%. Thats a very realistic salary figure for the majority of Londoners. And yes, its great that employees dont pay the company tax, but im a small business owner, so its effectively my dividends that pay the tax on behalf of my employees. And regarding the house value, youre right, its homes (or more appropriately ASSETS) over 325k that get taxed. But you do know that a single bedroom flat/apartment on the outskirts of London in a council estate, starts at around 250k, right? So for us Londoners, that 325k is reached very quickly, also considering the huge rise in house prices. My main point was that in Russia, they just pay flat 13% as individuals on their salaries, and companies pay 13% tax on revenue. Thats a very lucrative environment for personal wealth increase and business growth. ---- As for the planes, you are too right! Just read about the bears in todays paper.

If you are playing as Russia, you amass your Comrades a few blocks away into a group of about 300 or so heads, then with a collective "URA" you 'fast move' them into the building in question. Job done.

Hmm, would need a better/new engine to cope with the modelling of all the thick jungle. Also from what I know of Vietnam, a lot of the US deployment into missions, came from Helicopters. The current game engine doesn't model this. Is it possible for scenario designers to make reinforcements appear in the middle of a map? Say, they just hopped out of a Huey? Or all reinforcements come from map edges only?

SBurke: "Putin is promising "security" and showing that off in his little parade. Russians might want to spend some time figuring out what they are paying for it." Russians have never looked to the state for "security" from external sources - Russians fully understand that the threat of the West invading Motherland soil, is minimal to the point of minuscule. It was a parade, it has been happening every year on the same day for the last 70 years. Sure the state may use it for arms propaganda in order to obtain export orders. So what? They do that all over the world too. Britains Farnborough is a large Airplane parade/show, with the sole purpose of obtaining lucrative export contracts. The public display is just an afterthought/byproduct of the finances-oriented display by some of the major producers of combat aircraft. As for the figuring out what they are paying for, Im sorry buddy, but dont be under the illusion that Russian people are stifled with excessive payments, that they feel the need to ask where their money is going. In Russia, tax is set at 13%, for individuals, and for companies, no matter how much you earn. Healthcare is good. Pensions are rising. Wages for teachers are rising. People actually do live pretty decently there, which many of you on this forum continuously fail to accept! For comparison, here in the UK, tax band depends on your income. I'm somewhere in the middle class, so my tax is at 50% of my salary. Then, my company also gets taxed on the salary that I pay to myself and other employees, at 22% (or something like that). Then there is Council tax which I pay annually to my borough, for living in it. Oh, if my parents die, I have to pay the Government 30% of the value of the home that they spent all their life paying off, before it can pass over to me - as Inheritance tax. So, back to the point raised by you guys above: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Lets rephrase that (remember, Russians dont really care about "safety", the way you guys do, or think of it in the way you guys think of it). Lets rephrase that sentence to a common russian man's mindset (from how I perceive it). It would be along the lines of: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little economic freedom, do not deserve the liberty, and whatever else blah blah". Alright, so, would I give up my liberties/freedom of expression/blah blah (crap that I dont really have living in a democratic country, because really, I CANT express my views openly/freely - I have to worry about offending religions groups, or race groups, or sexual orientation groups etc.) - in exchange to live better ECONOMICALLY? You know what - hell yeah I would! Isn't that what countries and their leaders are supposed to be doing for their people? Increasing and improving the quality of life - which more often than not means economic welfare? In any case, my Liberty does not really count for much here in the UK. Whichever party I vote for (illusion of choice) - they all lie and in the end do not deliver what was promised. Taxes are going up, student fees are up, the National Health System is a JOKE with a capital J. Protests/political rallies? Please. 2 million people in Britains largest ever protest took to the streets of London against war in Iraq. We still went to war there. Oh Oh Oh, lets talk about repression! When I first came to this country, there always used to be pickets and campaigns going on right opposite Parliament/Big Ben, about various things. Now? Nada. No protests. Instead there are constantly 20 or so officers stationed around the Parliament Square, quietly moving on anyone who has anything worth saying in opposition to what they do in that building. Have a read: https://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/human-rights/free-speech-and-protest/protest/protest-around-parliament Lets add to the fact that most of us are under a mountain of mortgages, or repaying back increased student fees (which went up from 3k per annum, to 9k per annum in most Universities), which make it physically impossible to leave work for even a day, to go and demonstrate one's opinion. So, to my eye (which may be wrong - please comment!), in Russia, Putin takes away some Liberties, but provides greater economic freedoms/opportunities. In the UK, I have many Liberties (again, questionable), but not so much Economic Freedom/opportunity. Thats probably why the Russians tolerate him/current State, because for the most part, they live better off than they used to 10, 15, 20 years ago. ================ Now, regarding the "touchy" subject of likening the current Russian State to Fascism. Personally, I don't like it when you guys do that. To me that is offensive. Lets just call it Dictatorship and leave it as it is. Would you call Syrian or the previous Lybian or Iraqi States as Fascist? Not really. So why apply that term to Russian leadership? I think its crude and inappropriate. ---------------------------- Other side of the coin (just so that you understand that I am not oblivious to what you guys try to point out) - back in college, I studied Hitler, Mein Kampf, post WW1 Germany, Hitler's rise to power, and WW2 Germany. The way Adolf gained so much public support, was by improving the general quality of life for the majority of the population. So, by economic methods first and foremost. Is this what is happening in Russia now? Hmmm. Kind of, yes. Is the State mindful of not repeating Adolf's footprints? Hmmm. I dont know if I can answer that with complete honesty - I am wary of certain things that have happened, but of course I always hope for the best, that peace/reason/morality will prevail above everything else (which, granted, may or may not happen). Why was Hitler 'bad'? Lets just briefly compare some of his major monstrous actions (that inevitably attached such a stigma to Fascism), to the current Russian State: (a) Severe repression and persecution (and extermination) of race/religion. - Doesn't happen in Russia. Probably wont happen - way of life is too deeply rooted in the Orthodox church, as well as in Islam for a large part of our southern countrymen. (b ) Repression of invalids and other non-able bodied individuals (mental illnesses and the like). - Doesn't happen in Russia. Yes, those groups could probably better off than they are now, but they are not actively repressed or persecuted. Homosexuals are a whole different ball game because the dislike that they feel from the public, stems from the Church/religions beliefs, rather than the State's impositions. (c ) Invasion of neighboring countries, "enslavement" of able bodied citizens to work in various industrial outlets. - Well, not yet! Hopefully not ever! Of course there is the touchy subject of Eastern Ukraine in regards to "invasion", but whether yes or no, I havent seen any signs of local population being in forced labour there, for the benefit of the Russian State. (d) Holocaust / Genocide with the purpose of wiping out whole populations, to repopulate regions with the Arian race. - Not even close! The above points are what comes to mind, when one talks of Fascism. So, to liken Russian State to Fascism, its a bit much guys, and I would prefer it if we stayed away from that term. Sburke did point out that the Russian State is accusing the Ukrainian Leadership of being Fascist. I think this is also inappropriate - that's a really distasteful and wrong way of doing propaganda. Politicians do really stoop to big lows some times - happens here as well! We just had our Elections, and in the run up to the voting period, some of the prominent Conservatives or Tories (I dont remember which now), were openly painting their opponents, the UKIP, as being a right-wing Fascist party. Really really crude.

Yeah, read the original article http://www.kommersant.ru/doc/2725056 You are right, party 'Community Brothers' - best way I can translate the term - lock and load, help me pls - how would you translate "Дружина"? Basically, aim is to recruit strong but smart/polite individuals, to look after the welfare of their respective communities. Apparently there are loads of volunteers already. Hopefully not the Skinhead type. Newspaper says its likely just a PR stunt, because the police force tried many times to create such a volunteer communal protection programme in the past, all ending in failure.

Ah, right, I see your distinction. Thanks for clarifying. I think that I would need to see how the original article was worded (russian), the one the American paper reported on, to see if its indeed a "party" thing, or a "state" thing. You know how newspapers like to spin stuff. Let me dig around and revert!

Wargame European Escalation, Wargame Airland Battles, and Wargame Red Dragon my friend!

Dude, PCSO's are not the same as Police Officers. Whatever its idea was at inception, now its like a voluntary outfit, or lets more call it like a "contracting" facility, where you can volunteer to join the local police force's PCSO programme. Very popular with students and non-prospective individuals. Almost like an alternative to a homeguard army outfit. You get paid (not as much as a police officer, but something at least). You get some powers (not as much as a police officer, but something at least). There are prospects for a career (I think after 2 or 3 years theres a possibility to do exams/tests to become a police officer). It really is very easy to become PCSO - i have 2 friends that did it for a couple of years when they were fresh out of Uni, without too many prospects, having studied "Media Studies". They said they got in like a day after going to the local police station. You may be pointing out that I got the years wrong - yeh, that I can accept. Ive only been really noticing them alot more on the streets in the past 4/5 years. Before there probably didnt use to be as many. They are, in many ways, a Uniformed vigilante group (if you use the terminology of the article linked by Sburke), endorsed by the Government/police force, to render support to the communities. Most of their powers, for example an arrest or detention of a citizen, is EXACTLY the same as my power to arrest or detain a citizen, under the criminal law act. The difference is that they wear a uniform, and are on the State's payroll. Here is an article showing that they try to overstep their powers, but dont receive even similar state protection as Police officers do: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2098989/Police-force-apologise-YouTube-video-showed-PCSO-accusing-animal-rights-protester-filming-pet-store-terrorist.html So, how is this outfit not similar to what was reported in the article about what they want to introduce in Russia? Maybe in Russia, if you disagree with a representative of such a state-backed groups, you would get beaten/detained? Maybe. Too early to tell mate, so why make a jab with it?

LaCroix, i think I understand what you are trying to say - it is definitely difficult to express it in a foreign language. Ultimately, its as Panzer said (and Steve pointed out to me in a different conversation about a month ago): Sublime loves his homeland, you love yours. Its good that you both love the countries that you are from - to the extent that you both do. It also means that you both will disagree on some of the principal points in both your arguments, and to be honest I think most of us readers are not that qualified to judge who is right and who is wrong. I tend to sympathise with you, because that **** happened right on your doorstep, and it mustve been a hell of an awful time. Tell us more, but dont be surprised if the Americans counter with their own arguments - there may sometimes be something of value to learn in those comments. Or something that you can counter with your own knowledge!

Its too early to ridicule something that (a) hasnt happened, and ( we havent seen its effects. Interestingly - we have something similar in the UK - Police Community Support Officers (Simce about 2010/11) - they are not from the Police, but patrol the streets in a uniform, work with the police to identify wrongdoers in troubled neighbourhoods, and are there to generally reassure the public (or annoy the public - ive been stopped and asked for identification and explanation on what I was doing by them a few times for no reason whatsoever while out and about in the city). Generally they do a decent job. Sometimes they overstep their authority. Doesnt hurt having them ultimately. Maybe they will be of a benefit to Russian society too? You guys dont need to paint a 'dark cloud' over everything that happens in Russia. Of note - the British students and other members of the public for a while also likened the introduction of Police Community Support Officers to the Nazi brownshirts, at the time of their inception. I will try to dig up an article I read at that time, by one of the more 'outspoken' local newspapers.

This is what I meant about someone from the US camp/side taking a jibe at the russians. Ultimately it then leads to everything above, and someone in return villifying the yanks, and then back and forth like a seesaw.

@ Panzer: Thank you for taking the time to formulate your answer - having read it, I respect your opinions and your approach to the arguments alot more. Ultimately, it comes down to this, what you said: "Your point is to indicate both histories are bloody. Okay. That's not what we're debating though. We're debating that the Russians stand up to their chin in blood, and deny they're standing in it " You are right, Russians would never accept their own dirt. Its a mentality that needs to change from the top of the pillar, down to the general public. ------- @ Sublime You do make some good points. I will disagree with you on the comment about everyone villifying the U.S. Lets be honest, in the few months that ive been on the forums, the only time I have seen people raise issues about the US in a negative way, is AFTER someone representing your Nation, has laughed or ridiculed poor Ivan, or his crappy mechanised toys, or a party related to Ivan, amd so forth :-) . ------- Thanks to both of you for the examples of the Russkies and their integration. Im actually quite surprised that they would talk about Russia as a "****hole" - probably due to the experience of their parents in USSR/post collapse 90's? I personally grew up there from 85 till 94. Now have lived 20 years in UK. Integrated fully in the local society, consider it my home, dont have any Russian friends (all my Family is in Ukraine), but I still cant help but feel defensive when someone talks smack of my homeland, or judges it or points out whats wrong with it etc. Would never call it a ****hole or any other derogatory term. Do find hard to accept some of the wrongs it has done. Is it Patriotism? Dont think so. Nostalgia? Nah not quite. Love for a country, and more so for its people - no matter if many of them are misguided/bullish in their way of life? Yeh, probably a little. Would love to see a "better" Russia. But to be honest, for the most part, I dont think its really that bad. I can see a tonne of things wrong with the way things are done here in the UK, the stuff that doesnt get reported, how freedom of speech is repressed and basic human rights are ignored. Best way to avoid problems at home (UK), is to point at a villain (RF, IS, Syria) abroad, eh? --------- @ Aurelius and Lacroix - im sorry that you had to experience the situations which you describe in your homelands. I really dont know much about the conflict, so cannot comment, but will continue following the discussion closely. ----- @ Raptor You are so right about that! I look forward to all the discussions that go on here. One - it lets me learn more of the world, people and opinions as a whole. Two - sometimes through discussion you learn that some people are not as ignorant as I may have initially thought, and do raise good/valid points. Three - you get a reasonable forum to express your own opinions and possibly sway the mindset of others. Plus, some of the stuff I have read from the guys in this community, is of a real top standard. Should get put together in a work of literature of its own.

Thats what Russia needs, a few generations that have integrated into Western society, have served in respective respected forces of those nations - to then return back home and provide an example, because a good example is what my homeland lacks (change must happen from within, rather than from external pressure/influence, otherwise nothing will work)

Finns! My bad - got caught up in trying to express the feelings across - wrote down a completely unrelated nation! The nannys village was on the northern border, she and her family were mutilated quite gruesomly, ive seen all the scars and held her hand that was missing all fingers apart from the thumb. Second - umm, the brits raiding french villages and vice versa (the early American Citizens)? The forceful taking of land and extermination of whole tribes of native indians? Slavery? The raids into Mexico? The treatment (enslavement) of the Chinese labour force? The lootings and pillagings during the wild west era? The gangs of new york (lol)? Your country's history, in the short 300 years that it has existed, floats on just as deep a bathtub full of blood, as does Russia's, within and without your own borders. Third - yeah I know, its weird like that huh? I think is mostly because they are the closest 'proper' "Western" country to Russia, (apart from the nordic ones to the north) and over the past 10 or so years thats where many russians have had chance to travel on inexpensive holidays, and see how well and 'harmoniusly' the people live there under Democracy. --------- There's quite a fair amount of Russians in the States. Do they integrate at all into the local society? Or do they keep to themselves. Actually, interesting question - has anyone here from the US military had a Russian (like, one who's family emigrated a while back, and he grew up in the States) serve with them in the forces? If yes, how did they act? How did they tell you of back home?

What is the deal with the military forces not allowing any other types of Camo to be used, apart from the one that is on all these vehicles? Anyone know why that was decided? I really really do not like this Green...

Okey! Thanks to all for their opinions and reasons!

Panzer wrote: "Contrast this to the Russian army which can give locusts a run for it's money, if locusts could rape and install puppet governments. That's actually rather another reason I strongly dislike the Russian military, it's like having another company that does what you do, only sans morality, decency, and gloats about how it gets away with a lack of either. Which almost loops back onto the topic, it's why I hate the Russian "victory" day parades. They're in effect celebrating the nightmare they brought through Eastern Europe, the Stalinist oppression of thousands of innocent people, and the systematic rape and looting of anything with a correctly sized set of holes, or that could fit on a train back to Moscow. It's like if the US Army had a "Wounded Knee Victory Parade" or the Brits held a festival to celebrate the first use of the maxim gun on indigenous people. Then pair it with being a celebration of a return to Russian militarism and it just honestly gets sort of sick in that regard." Panzer, you just gotta look at Russia as a country that is going through the cycles that all other major countries went through 100-400 years ago (sort of, delayed evolution). What you describe, is exactly the same as what the British or the French did to their colonies. Or what the young (first founded) Americans did to the Indians or the African slaves. Russian people themselves are people who have been enslaved for hundreds of years by the Mongol-Tatars, then by the Imperialist Tsarism, then by the corrupted "freedom" of Communism, then by the Mafiosi of the 90's, and now by the current dictatorship. This, and the huge population losses of two world wars and the subsequent Stalinist repressions, has really made the people "bitter". I know its not an excuse, but Russia (well, certainly Russian mentality) has not evolved as quickly as the rest of the civilized world. You can still sort of consider it as a, maybe not 3rd world country, but definitely 2.5 world country. I feel that for my homeland to reach similar levels of Morality as is exhibited right now in the West, it will take about 50-100 or so years, and a few regime changes. HAVING SAID THAT, I believe that Russians actually need a strong Dictator leader at the present moment, because without one, the country will just return back to the 90s, with various fragments of society all vying for power through dubious means. Regarding the Victory Day parade celebrations - you got it wrong mate. Its like saying that you guys celebrate 4th of July Independence day as a celebration of all the pillaging your nation did in its birth, and then got away with it by cutting ties to "civilized" european "motherlands". Russians celebrate Victory day, because 20 or so million people died in WW2, and about 2million in WW1. The looting/raping/oppression of Eastern states is a by-product of a harsh and severe attitude that was exerted onto Russians during the Nazi advance. My Grandmother on my Father's side was raped by Fashist Poles (she is from Western ukraine). My Nanny, from when I lived in St. Petersburg in my infancy, was captured by the Norwegians and mutilated during the 300 day blockade of Leningrad. And there are MILLIONS of stories like that. How do you think the Husbands, Fathers, Brothers of such women would react, when bitterness is deep in their soul and they are finally pushing back into the lands of the invaders? There you go. You Americans have never experienced such loss/terror/anguish, because all your wars of the last 100 years are far away from home. Don't judge Russians for their attitude, because there is A LOT of history that got them to this attitude. Of course, the flip side, is that - this was 70 years ago, Russians should move on, let go of the bitterness, forgive and forget so to say, act more "honourable" etc. like the rest of the world is, become friendly with neighbours, etc etc. I dont know. I see that the African population of certain cities in the US is definitely still bitter about certain circumstances that used to happen more than 150 years ago (before slavery was abolished in the States). I mean heck, they BUILT your country and its economy, but yet probably more than half of them live much worse off than a poor Russian family currently lives (and I have been to the States many times, so I do know what I'm talking about). So, not to take a bite at you or anything with the above, but Russians are a proud people (maybe not noble, but definitely very proud), who respect their past/history, celebrate the memory of the forefathers, like to flex their muscle (even when its made out of cardboard), think the rest of the world is out to get them (not just because of state propaganda, but because of the lessons taught by history), and will continue to do whatever the hell they want until either (a) they are knocked on the head (internally or externally), or ( throgh the years they travel west more, see how the rest of the world lives, and try to bring good moral principles back to their homeland for improvement. They definitely do not view the Americans or the States as anything that should provide them with a good moral compass (you guys have been ridiculing Russia waaay to much in the past - Hollywood et al, which just adds to the Russian's "bitterness"). They do view Germany and the UK in quite high regard, as well as Finland/Sweden. Oh, almost forgot to say, regarding the behaviour of the current Russian Military - you gotta remember that the RF military has not fought alongside any of the Western militaries against a common enemy in like, ever? I think for the Russian Military, in order to act in the "morally correct" way that you describe, would need to be deployed somewhere along side Western forces, so as to learn from their behaviour, emulate it, and garner respect from their comrades in arms for emulating such behaviour. I mean, isnt this how you guys became so "polite" while waging war? Because you did it alongside the French and the Brits, who would say - Oi, you there Sir, why are you acting like that to those poor farmers? It must be a psychological thing - if you are criticized for your behaviour from the OUTSIDE, then the Russian troops are like - whatever, youre not here, dont tell us what to do and what not to do. Whereas, if your troops are next to theirs, pinned in an arty bombard, losing comrades in arms equally, and then if the Russians start abusing the residents of a village that you both have just stormed, and you say - dude, thats wrong - they may listen to you closer, because they wont want to look bad in the eyes of their comrades in arms.