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Rokko

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    Operation Luttich OOB

    in CM Normandy Maps and Mods

    Posted

    I only 1947 aerial photography and maybe some old maps I've found. There is a website dedicated to the 30th US ID (something with oldhickory I believe) that has a nice stash of original reports, maps, etc. from the battle, too.

    As for unit strengths, I'd think the Americans were mostly at full strength (I believe the 30th ID was completely fresh when they took the sector from 1st ID).

    For the Germans I think I had 80-90% for unit strength, with only the units involved that are actually mentioned somewhere.

    I could be totally wrong on this but I could imagine that when losses accumulated they would savage batallions to keep other batallions (of the same regiment) at a somewhat effective strength, or maybe savage 1st and 2nd company to get men for 3rd company or something like that.

    That might explain why sometimes you read something like "II. and III. Abteilung of 'Der Führer' regiment attack XY" but nowhere anything is said about what the hell I. Abteilung was doing these days, although it might have just been kept in reserve i dunno.

    As for AFV numbers Reardon's book might give you some ideas.

    Mostly information is given in the form of "PFC Smith spotted 15-20 enemy AFVs on the road to XY at 0625" or something and you get some idea how many vehicles could have been involved.

    As for 17th SS I quote:

    "SS-Panzergrenadier Division 17, attached to Das Reich, arriver in its assembly area as planned two thousand yards east of Hill 314. One panzergrenadier battalion, however, had remained in Vire to assist II Fallschirmjäger Korps. The remaining units of Panzergrenadier Division 17 were reorganized into two ad hoc formations: Kampfgruppe Fick, which consisted of several understrength infantry battalions, some engineers, and the divisional reconaissance battalion, and Kampfgruppe Ernst, which was composed of divisional antiaircraft and artillery units. Because most of the division's guns had been lost in previous battles, Kampfgruppe Ernst boasted a significant number of artilleryman fighting as infantry. SS-Panzergrenadier Division 17, reinforced by a company of assault guns provided by Das Reich expected to quickly secure Hill 314.

    SS-Panzergrenadier Division 17 was also assigned to provide a third battlegroup commanded by Hauptsturmführer Karl Ulrich of II Abteilung, SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 37, to reinforce the efforts Weidinger's Der Führer regiment. Kampfgruppe Ulrich was tasked to secure Hill 285 northwest of Mortain, and eight Pzkfw IVs were detached from SS-Panzer Regiment 2 to support it"

    p.95

    As I just read a bit again in the book I find that the battle around Mortain is described in much greater detail than the engagements further to the North and I'd definately recommend it for that part.

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    Operation Luttich OOB

    in CM Normandy Maps and Mods

    Posted

    Methinks Operation Goodwood was a larger armor battle. Just saying.

    On the composition of Schake, it really wasn't all that varied. It was just taking the freshest and thus strongest Panther battalion in theater - 116th hadn't been involved in the fighting at all to that point, really, being in army reserve until the counterattack - coupled with pretty much all available SPW infantry. Which was 1 battalion of PzGdrs and 2 of armored recon. Outside of Panzer Lehr, PDs of the era didn't have full PzGdr regiments in SPWs, but this ad hoc tasking effectively made one.

    Allied air power intervened famously in this fighting, in part because the Allies knew all about it ahead of time from Ultra intercepts. The pilots also famously overclaimed, and after action surveys on the ground show they didn't destroy anywhere near the count of full tanks they claimed. But the SPWs are a different story - those were highly vulnerable to tac air. In fact, strikes that did hit SPWs but claimed them as tanks are the likely cause of much of the pilot's overclaiming.

    There were three other major interventions on the Allied side. Several SP TD battalions ran to the action in precisely the way the famously derided McNair doctrine called for, and it worked exactly as he had hoped, successfully massing army level AT power right opposite the enemy break-through attempt. Second, a full US armor division flanked the attempt from the south and counterattacked into it. Which was more costly but did create pressure and shift the initiative, with the Germans soon rightly more concerned about how they were getting themselves surrounded than about reaching the sea and cutting off any Americans.

    And third, corps level artillery assets intervened in a big way, with excellent spotting by bypassed US infantry division elements holding out on hills and other tough terrain spots in the break-in area, after the initial break-in had succeeded, and from the ever present piper cubs in the skies. These proceeded to drench the entire effort in a heavy and non stop rain of 155mm howitzer fire, shredding the infantry and transport trying to stay up with the tanks.

    It wasn't just operationally that the attempt was a forlorn hope. Tactically it was checkmated several times over within 48 hours, and in ways that bypassed any concern about the superiority of the Panther as a battle tank.

    As usual, your input is makes for a very interesting read and is highly appreciated! ;)

    Which was the second recon batallion in KG Schake? Reardon only mentions the LAH recon batallion.

    Given that units from KG Schake came from 3 different divisions (2nd PD, 116th PD and 1st SS PD) and the Panther batallion was actually not from the same regiment as 116th Panzer IV batallion I considered calling this KG mixed or varied justified, at least in that aspect.

    I think any superiority the Panther tank had didn't play any role in the first day of the offensive.

    Very thick fog caused any fighting to happen at point blank range (American ATG gunners supposedly aimed at muzzle flash of the Panthers' hull MGs in Saint-Barthelemy). Panthers were KO'd from the front, from the rear, from the sides, often by bazookas. Fighting must have been beyond chaotic, and they pushed right into the village.

    In fact the LAH Panther batallion suffered horrendous casualties during the attack on that single infantry batallion in Saint-Bart.

    They were totally uninformed with the terrain and had absolutely no time to prepare their attack. Actually the whole attack had to be delayed because the Panther batallion arrived late at their destination and once they had arrived they were thrown right into the thick of it.

    The lack of corpswide reconaissance and artillery coordination was another issue that hampered the Germans' efforts.

    Also the terrain was much more hilly than in northern Normandy, migitating the Panther's range advantage even more. I think in my unfinished Saint-Barthelemy map height differences were some 60m heighest to lowest, I think I'll upload it for those who'd like to see for themselves.

    Interestingly, the Panzer IV's from 2nd PD made a much more effective contribution to the capture of Saint-Bart than the SS Panthers.

    http://www.file-upload.net/download-6718440/StBart_sunkenRoadXXX.btt.html

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    Operation Luttich OOB

    in CM Normandy Maps and Mods

    Posted

    Yeah doing everything is not a good approach, to much for one person to do and doesn't make a lot of sense actually. The guys fighting on the northern wing didn't have a lot to do with the guys fighting at, say, L'Abbaye Blanche.

    My own approach was much more confined actually. I planned to portray the battles of Kampfgruppe Schäke on the northern wing and their comrades further south fighting for Saint-Barthelemy. These two groups were mutually dependent and pretty close to each other. In fact, KG Schäke couldn't advance further not because of stiff enemy opposition, there was hardly any actually, but because their comrades in Saint-Barthelemy took so long to take the village and were hit so heavily they couldn't advance afterwards without reorganizing (also the fog wore off and Allied CAS restricted movement). KG Schäke was then counterattacked by American reinforcements and without help from the rest of 2nd PD and hat to retreat after heavy losses including their CO.

    That was pretty much the "interesting" part of OP Lüttich. All that happened on 6th and 7th August (or was it 7th and 8th I can't remember).

    All that followed was mostly pointless defensive fighting without any chance to achieve anything but further attrition to German forces.

    But then again, the whole offensive didn't have any chance of succes and only helped to seal the fate of 7th Army more quickly I'd say.

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    Operation Luttich OOB

    in CM Normandy Maps and Mods

    Posted

    Haha, I once wanted to do the same thing, even before the CW module, but as usual I lost interest somewhere along the road, probably when I lost my saved Google Earth data (for map creation).

    But let's see:

    One the German side there are essentially 5 divisions involved (though the term division can't be taken to literally anymore by that date).

    In the North you have 116th PD fighting around Cherence-le-Roussel.

    60. Panzergrenadier-Regiment being the furthest to the North.

    Then there is a strong Kampfgruppe Schake (Schäke?) attacking towards Le-Mesnil-Adelee (actually they're the ones who advance the most).

    Kampfgruppe Schake (he was CO of 304. PG-Regiment of 2nd PD) consisted of (at least):

    I./304. PzGr-Reg.

    Panzerjägerabteilung 38 (of 2nd Panzer-Division)

    I./Panzer-Regiment 24 (essentially the Panthers of 116th PD)

    SS-Panzeraufklärungsabteilung 1 LAH

    As you can see these are very heterogen groups which are strongly intermixed.

    Further South where the big battle for Saint-Barthelemy happened there were

    units from 2nd and 1st SS PD.

    From the North you have attacking Panzer IV's from II./Panzer-Regiment 3 and Grenadiers from PzGr-Reg. 2 (I'm fairly sure at least their 5th Company took part in the battle).

    From the South there were Panthers from I./SS-Pz-Reg 1 (the batallion was assigned to 2nd PD at that time) and SS Grenadiers from 1st SS PD.

    Some Eye-witness accounts speak of German halftracks involved, which gives a hint at which batallions from the many possible PzGr-Regiments could have been involved.

    Even further South at Mortain and Hill 314 there were 2nd SS PD and 17th SS PzGr-Division. Note that at the time the CO of 17th SS was also commanding the 2nd SS PD since their old CO had been killed during the Cobra breakout.

    I don't have too much information on those two.

    All I remember is that 17th SS was split up in 3 Kampfgruppen.

    Kampfgruppe Fick (sic)

    Kampfgruppe Ulrich

    and the 3rd one of which I can't find the name right now. On of these KG's was mostly made up by artillerists of 17th SS fighting as infantry.

    Around Abbaye Blanche you have "Der Führer" and "Deutschland" PzGr-Regiments of 2nd SS PD.

    Later in the battle, elements from 10th SS PD became also involved around Barenton south of Mortain.

    As you can see finding out the divisions involved is mostly pointless, since they are so badly shot up, widely dispersed and heavily mixed in strange ragtag Kampfgruppe-formations.

    I've been using the book "Victory at Mortain" by Mark J. Reardon as a source, but that book has a lot of problems (in my eyes) and often deals with the German side only very generally (at regimental level with no coherent OOB at any place). So lack of structure is the greatest problem with it.

    If you for instance wonder what the heck the Panzer IV's of 1st SS did during the campaign, the book won't give you the answer and never found out either.

    So finding out the German OOB is a huge hastle and I've never completed it.

    I believe there is someone over at Axis History forums who is very well informed on that matter but I never contacted him.

    What's also rather unsatisfactory about recreating Lüttich for CMBN is the lack of dense fog, which had a large impact on the battle and the lacking effectiveness of American 76mm ATGs against Panthers at VERY close ranges (they'll fire at the glacis instead of aming at hull-MG openings as they did at Saint-Barthelemy).

    But I hope I could help you a bit.

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    In Desperate Battle: Normandy 1944

    in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy

    Posted

    Thanks for putting things into perspective.

    Honestly, I have only skimmed the article quickly and went straight for the link at the bottom ;)

    On the other hand from the same article:

    The films were defended by a range of the world's top military historians, including John Keegan.

    (No source unfortunately)

    To be honest again, I didn't know about much of the stuff that was portrayed (i.e. what happened at the strategic level on the Allied side essentially), I just liked the calm style of it, compared to those modern History Channel or Military Channel documentaries.

    Obviously, most of the archive film material was wrong, as is true with most TV documentaries. A few minutes into "War Stories" I noticed the same thing, btw.

    Also, the praise for the German equipment and training and fighting skill was way over the top at times. I guess German fanboys really loved that thing at the time (oh my god does that make me one? ;) )

    I stumbled across it btw after reading of some other film that was supposed to be some kind of an "answer" to The Valour and the Horror and essentially claimed that it was entirely impossible that the Canadians commited war crimes as well, which I found rather ridicoulus. Got me interested though.

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    In Desperate Battle: Normandy 1944

    in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy

    Posted

    With most of the attention going to Sicily at the moment I thought this nice TV documentary might raise some interest in Normandy again

    http://www.nfb.ca/film/in_desperate_battle_normandy_1944

    It's a Canadien documentary from the early 90's but in my opinion it's clearly superior to many modern documentaries.

    What especially suprised me was how much it tries to really show both sides of the story. I understand it caused quite an uproar in Canada back in the day for being rather critical of the Allied armies actually.

    Anyways, I liked it a lot, so I thought I'd share.

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    Advantages of the new elevation system?

    in Combat Mission Fortress Italy

    Posted

    Hi,

    can someone explain to me the changes and advantages of the new way how elevations are handled? So far it seems like a step backwards to me. It appears you need many more fixed tiles to make contour lines than before. Where you'd place maybe one fixed tile every 5-6 tiles in CMBN you need to place literally one heightfix on every tile.

    Also it often seems actually LESS natural. When you fix a tile at, lets say, 45 the other tiles around that one don't get adjusted to that very well, while with the old system they pretty much did, even with extreme differences. Instead you get like these "pimples" in the landscape.

    Can be seen for instance on the first map of the Italian campaign around the building on the large hill.

    Also, when the 2.0 changes get imported to CMBN I'm kinda afraid this is going to deform or even ruin many of the older maps.

    Admittedly, the way the landscape bends looks more natural in general, but these pimples/anthills are somewhat annoying, so far I haven't found out how to annoy them without spamming height tiles all over the place

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    Allied AAR: Clearing the Niscemi Highway

    in Combat Mission Fortress Italy

    Posted

    Doesn't this video rather "proove" different? Looks like the guy survived to me, thanks to a pretty well dug foxhole.

    Also, generally, I was more implying if protection against artillery will be improved in this title. Artillery lethality is still one of my woes I have with the game.

    Didn't LongLeftFlank once conduct a test, were he meticulously recreated a German position, had the exact number of shells fired at that place and than compared the results?

    In reality, the position remained mostly unharmed (or rather, it's occupants), while in game it probably evaporated.

    I also remember mortar lethality was much less serious in CMSF.

    I once switched back to CMSF for a while (after having already played CMBN) and one of my teams was caught in Syrian mortar barrage (airbursts!) and, based on my Normandy "experience" already thought these guys were done for, but to my amazement, nobody was harmed.

    0

    Weird tank gun trajectories

    in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy

    Posted

    There's something I've a few times (it doesn't happen often to me) during tank duells for instance. Sometimes you see a tank round aimed at another tank go UNDER the tank and hit the ground behind it. I really can't imagine how this could be possible (given a completely flat surface, happened during a testing scenario once). I'm not sure at which ranges this will happen ingame, but it strikes me as fairly odd.

    Has anyone ever experienced something alike?

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    Map size restrictions

    in CM Normandy Maps and Mods

    Posted

    Another thing I noticed is that when you set the alignment of roofs in the editor, your selection won't be saved. Everytime you load a 3D view it gets chosen by random.

    I also wonder, if I write a bout issues like that here, does someone in charge of changing stuff actually read it? I mean I appreciate condolences, but someone looking into it and considering a change for a patch or maybe the upgaming 2.0 upgrade would help me and other people more.

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