JP76er
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Posts posted by JP76er
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Some things to consider:
Explosive damage to infantry is reduced in CM:SF since they aren't as spaced out as they should be.
RPGs have HE-frag warheads which are much better at hurting infantry than a Javelin.
As mentioned above HEAT warheads are very ineffecitve at causing damage in the open, they need to detonate on the other side of something hard first.
Thanks for the information. That makes sense because of the HEAT. I was just wondering if the blast itself would take out a sniper team on an open roof. Another person posted that the roof looks flat in the game but all roofs have many things on it to give cover from a blast like that. That makes sense too. I have watched Javelin hitting targets on any of the internet video sites & know I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end.
Moving on to another question & probably another thread; how is the Aussie version of the Abrams? I'm interested in that & would like that POV. I'll start another thread if you are interested.
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zmoney,
An interesting perspective
Agreed. Now that we're done with this whole unnecessary mess, perhaps we can now get back on topic! Which, unfortunately, is me saying I can't give you guys a better estimate when the Brit Module will be out other than to say "soon". And by "soon" I don't mean months, but I also don't mean days either.
Steve
Agreed. Looking forward to the Brit Module. Now, I'm back to my thread on Javelins & on topic.
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I appreciate your opinion & I apologize that this has derailed the information on the Brit module.
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So, to be clear JP76er... you want to go with Choice #3, not Choice #1 or #2? Obviously we aren't afraid to post the whole thing because we keep asking you for permission to do so, which is why you've run our patience out.
I'll treat your next post as your final answer as to which Choice you wish to exercise. But understand that if you do not choose #1 it will be pretty obvious that you know you're wrong.
Steve
You posted while I was answering you back. Number 1 is out because of my personal information & you know that. It's obvious that I'm not wrong, I'm not backing down from that one bit. I just told you that #2 is fine by me. The rest is totally up to you.
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JP76er,
No, I didn't post them because it would be a gross violation of customer service policy and "netiquite" to post your private correspondence without your permission. Which is why we've asked you to give us permission to post everything so people can judge for themselves. Therefore, it is obvious that we feel your characterization of the exchange is incorrect. Your lack of permission to post clearly demonstrates that you know, deep down inside, that you are in the wrong here.
Now, besides all that you are in violation of Forum rules. You've made a rather strongly aggressive claim about something which has nothing to do with this thread's topic. This is considered "Troll" behavior. When you first posted your rather obnoxious post I gave you the benefit of the doubt, checked into it, and quite frankly was not surprised to find out that your attitude (as it has been shown here) is extremely unproductive. So I'm going to give you a choice:
1. Give me permission to post the entire series of emails, from the beginning and without edits, to let people judge for themselves how things went.
2. Don't give us permission, stop posting about the exchange. If you ever bring it up again, you'll be banished.
3. Don't give us permission, continue to violate the rules by attacking us without justification, and be banished for it.
If you REALLY feel that you're in the right on this one, then the choice is rather obvious. Opt for Choice #1 and let us shoot ourselves in the foot. Otherwise, the other two Choices are there for you to select from.
We may not be a democracy here, but we do bend over backwards to allow people to have their say in a reasonable way. However, there is a limit to our patience and you've reached it.
BTW, I in no way "bashed" our customers. I simply stated the facts that no matter what we do regarding a release date someone complains about how we go about things. I'm not angry or even annoyed by it, just pointing out that there's definitely no way to do it which will make everybody happy.
Steve
I've been looking at #2 ever since this started. Number 1 doesn't work because of my personal information. I'm not a "Troll". I responded to your post. I simply stated the facts. You answered, Martin answered & I have answered back. I have no problem in never bringing this up again. Read all of my other posts. They have all been about the game. I like the game & I like looking to others on the forum for help & their knowledge. You can ban me for any reason you want. I have lain out truthfully as what transpired & Battlefront knows it. We can agree to disagree or use any other cliché. I'm dropping it. It's up to you now.
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No, it doesn't at all. Please give me permission to post it in a separate thread, thanks.
Sure it peeves you. You're hiding behind customer confidentiality & rightfully so. You can't do that without giving away my personal information. Another smoke screen. Why don't you wrap up your defense of your actions, forward that on to me in an email, copying all of Battlefront's staff of course & we can continue our discussion? That way, I know who is reading what. Ask for anyone that can prove that I have let them read my saved documentation. You can't, I never have. Handle it professionally this time, please. I promise I won't post them. It really peeves you or new threads would already be provided here on your forums, for compliments & complaints. Your staff's complaints about customers too. If you do, just make sure you post them complete and uncommented, thank you. Steve bashed your customers. You bashed me. I bashed you back. I have the proof. You know & I know how you handled things. Read my first email again & your answer, then defend it. It was unprofessional. We can do this on your forums forever & it doesn't change how poorly you handled my customer service request. You could have given me the information requested in approximately 30 seconds & then expressed your thoughts of me privately to anyone at Battlefront you wanted. You chose your own misguided path to make it personal. For whatever reason, I'll never know.
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Yes really.
This is completely off-topic to the rest of the thread, so if you would like to post my "condescending emails" in public in order to try to substantiate your claims, you have my permission to do so, but please use a new thread. Just make sure you post them complete and uncommented, thank you.
Before doing so, please consider that we're dealing with dozens of customers through our support each day; I wonder why are you not seeing dozens or hundreds of complaints about our shoddy customer support here? Instead will find a bunch of compliments, and we get even more via email and via the helpdesk, thanking us for speedy responses and good service.
Truth is, I don't really care much. While it's not nice of you to make the claims you do without proof, your posts here are already giving a good hint of what's "inside" so that I am comfortable with you not posting them, as much as I am with you posting them.
All well & good. I know how you handled it & you know how you handled it. I have all the emails, I never once showed them to anyone. I have dealt with several people on here & through emails & kept that up as a positive point on this game & the fans of it. I never once even hinted on how I was treated. I wrote it off as dealing with a person who doesn't have the stuff to deal with a customer on a competent level. That is still quite obvious on how you are now checking in. "Truthfully, I don't really care much." Believe me, I understood that from you when I sent in my customer service request & I read your very 1st reply. You know how you handled my request, not a complaint, & you think you handled that professionally as a customer service? Go back & read my 1st email again asking you for your help. I was courteous. I was not complaining. Read your response to the very 1st email. How many emails did it take before you finally gave me the information I had asked for? You could have gave it to me in 30 seconds, one email & then call me anything you wanted privately. Instead, you chose to be rude from the very 1st email. See how professional you handled it. Show it to everyone at Battlefront. I dealt with the public every single day in my career & not once did I treat them badly or speak to them in a condescending way. The largest job I dealt with was around 5,000 customers, not dozens. Sailed through that & that was only one project. You're right, this is off topic. Steve ripping people for “complaining” was very off topic as a representative of a company. Maybe you should post a new thread with all the compliments you're getting? How about even posting the complaints you receive? Just make sure you post them complete and uncommented, thank you. You personally & Steve are consistent on how you deal with your customers. Badly. Remember, I do have proof & I know that peeves you. Steve is the one who brought up posting emails, I didn't. He didn't do it for one really good reason & you know what that is as a business, but he also didn't post them because it would show exactly how poorly you handled a simple request. I will return to just a fan of the game & continue to post unless I’m booted. As I wrote you in one of my emails, I’m not going off & saying I’ll never buy another product from Battlefront. I enjoy Shock Force & will continue to do so. I will buy the Brit module when it’s released. It’s very easy to look past your faults. To me, people posting or complaining on updates for one of your games is a good thing. You know they like your product. You know they are waiting to purchase the new module. I’m sure it gets annoying; just remember they wouldn’t be here unless they were excited about your product. Bash them privately instead of a public forum. You avoid customers bashing back.
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JP76er,
Normally I wouldn't do something like this publicly, but since you just slammed us I felt obligated to research the matter and now feel obligated to set the record as straight as I can under the limitations of customer confidentiality.
I checked with the two people that do customer support and they provided me with a 90k sized transcript of all the emails back and forth. Since you've decided to slam us for that interaction perhaps you wouldn't mind if I posted the entire and unedited emails and let people judge for themselves what really happened? I'm confident that if people read the entire interaction they will have a completely different opinion of our customer service than how you characterized it.
Exactly. Please keep that in mind the next time you ask for help and people are promptly, and diligently, trying to provide it to you.
Steve
Really Steve?
I have all of the emails between me & Martin the self proclaimed "El Presidente". I really don't think you want to release those as I'm sure you don't want me to release mine. I also can supply them at anytime. All of them with the headings. His emails were condescending from the get go. I have every one of his. Every one of mine plus his answers to all of them. You need to be slammed for this. It was very poor customer service. I even grouped all of the emails & sent the entire conversations to every single contact you had/have on your site. After that I received a very short email back from Martin that he HAD NOT read my last two replies & considered the matter closed. I heard nothing else from any person in your company. It was poor customer service in the same mode that you were ripping your customers from complaining no matter what you said about the Brit module. I was hoping that my dealings with Martin were a bad one time deal then I read your reply in this forum. You're wrong & you know it. You're smart in expressing the rights of customer confidentiality even though releasing the emails would show how shoddy things were handled plus show that your reply in this forum is a smoke screen. I have never revealed my copies of the emails to anyone. I love your games & have dealt with many members here on scenarios, questions, etc. THAT is a good experience. Just remember, I kept everything & can prove it. I know you don't want me to release those to anyone.
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It's funny... if we give a date and we miss it, people complain. If we don't give a date because we think we might miss it, people complain. If we stick to a hard date and release something that isn't ready, people complain. So the only solution is to not give dates and to release it when it's finished
As I've said earlier, the coding, artwork, voices, etc. are all done. We're working on the Campaign and stand alone battles only. We learned our lesson with the Marines Campaign's glitches, so we're taking our time getting the campaign ready. We also learned our lesson about how long the TO&E takes compared to everything else, so as I've said before we've recoding the entire TO&E structures and tools to address that issue. Unfortunately, since nobody's done anything like this before (complexity is a major component) there's a lot of "learn on the job" stuff going on here. That despite the fact that we've been in this business for what seems an eternity some days
The great thing about how files are organized it's REALLY easy to have "multiple versions" on your harddrive. All you need to do is backup the primary EXE somewhere, rename it, install a patch, then put the older EXE back in the CM folder. To run the old version just use the older EXE. That's because the resources used by an EXE are sequential and separated instead of mushed together. If CM needs a newer version of x resource, then it's put into a later BRZ file and it simply overrides what was in any of the earlier BRZs.
The only complicating factor is with the Modules EXEs. That's because the primary EXE calls up specifically named Module EXEs. So what you do is make a duplicate of your MODULES folder and keep that aside with the primary EXE. When you want to run the older version you simply move the current MODULE folder outside of your CM install and put your old one back in its place.
Steve
You mean like the time I was moving all my files to a new hard drive & I contacted Customer Service for my email addys & password from games I bought from Battlefront over the past several years? I got a nasty reply complaining & reaming me that I should only use one email address for the user I.D. to get to my files. Used the slang "Duh" referring to me. Notwithstanding that I bought a couple under one email address then I bought one or two more under a new address because my internet provider was sold & email addys changed for everyone. Then we moved to Comcast for cable modem speed & once again my email address changed. I bought Shock Force under that email address. I have bought a total of 6 Battlefront games & I'm a loyal customer. We had to exchange several not so nice email messages before all of my information was finally given to me. A procedure that I'm sure only took seconds.
You mean that kind of complaining coming from Battlefront's Customer Service?
I am a loyal customer & will be buying all the Shock Force modules & getting ready to purchase the new TOW module. Respect is a two way street.
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First of all, in that mission all of the Syrian Special forces are wearing body armour which would help protect them. Secondly, although roofs in CMSF appear flat, they are abstactly covered in 'stuff' that provides some cover.
I don't want to say that it is likely, just that it is possible that a 2 man team could take only 1 casualty from 3 javelin hits in that situation. I imagine that in real life that the survivor would be pretty shook up and definately injured (hearing at least!) but might still be able to walk away. I would conduct some tests before calling it a problem in the game.
I am trying to recreate it. Last night, my squad on over watch took them out right away. I was just "wondering" if it was the game itself. That's why I came to the forum to ask. I also saw it take 2 Javelin shots to wipe out a 2 man sniper team hiding behind a stone wall, 2 Javelin shots to take out a command group in the open & 2 shots to take out a RPG team at the end of the woods. As far as body armor, a RPG can do a lot of damage to your Blue (American) troops with the best body armor available, if you are careless. That's why I questioned why the Javelins were not performing very well in my opinion. I have also witnessed buildings collapse with enemy units in & a couple of turns later some pop up again. Usually with a RPG shot to an armor vehicle. In my humble opinion, a building collapse would kill or incapacitate the troops inside. I am going to try again today & see if I can recreate the 3 shot scenario. I'm getting plenty of the two shots. Someone earlier in the thread posted on how the Javelin detonates & that's why some troops might survive a Javelin blast in the open. I'm still getting the "50 meter punt" Javelin shots where a missile travels about 50 meters & it nosedives into the ground. I have found that it happens in any type of conditions such as aiming at a target in cover, in the open, close, far, etc. That is definitely a bug. I have seen the missile miss where it travels towards the target & just keeps going. I think that type of an event is close to real life. I'm sure that happens in many different ways & the game reflects that correctly.
Thanks for the input!!
Jamie
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De Savage - Thanks for the link; looks like some rather detailed pages there.
JP76er - I was referring to real-world incidents I have heard/read about in which Javelins were used against snipers and/or non-AFV targets.
The Javelin may not be designed for use against infantry which are relatively in the open, but it still doesn't make sense to me that three Javelins hitting a rooftop would only cause one casualty.
I'm going to try it again & see if I can repeat it. I'll save the game for anyone to take a look at & I'll get some screen grabs. I really like this mission so trying it again is still fun.
I just checked on Live Leak & I did see some videos of Javelins being used against infantry & buildings. I'm retired due to Multiple Sclerosis but still do a lot of work with music. My family & a friend built me an office/men's playroom & I have a really nice sound system. I have 7.1 just for game playing with the Creative Sound Blast X-Fi Pro. It is a lot of fun to play a video of a fierce firefight & just drive the wife right out of the house. The game sounds sweet too.
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Check this webpage about Javelin's capabilities: http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/antiarmor/Javelin.html
The Javelin is not effective when breaching structural walls. The anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) are not designed to breach structural walls effectively. All ATGMs, to include the Javelin, are designed to produce a small hole, penetrate armor, and deliver the explosive charge. Breaching calls for the creation of a large hole. Firing ATGMs is the least efficient means to defeat structural walls. ATGMs are better used against armored vehicles or for the destruction of enemy-fortified fighting positions.
Javelin is not anti-personnel weapon. But I think it should manage to kill someone inside the room, if fired to the wall.
Thanks!! That helps a bunch.
Dietrich - Is that the real world or the Shock Force game? I just tried again & it took two Javelins to take out a command group that had run into the open. One MG unit & an entire squad was also engaging the unit at approximately 250 meters unobstructed. I also had one of the famous Javelin travels 50 meters into the ground event. I know this is/was a known problem. Anything from Battlefront on this? How about the AT-4? It seems in the game as very useful in urban fighting. How does it do as far as penetrating a building? Thanks for everyone's input.
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This time the sniper team was spotted behind a wall in the Farmstead area. Javelin #1 destroyed the whole wall but the sniper team was intact & raised up to fight once again. Fired Javelin #2 & watched it all the way to the target. Nice blast hole, part of the stone fence behind the team was destroyed but only one casualty!! Excellent death scream! Super Sniper lives on! Any changes upcoming for the Javelin's lethality? I hate to waste any more of our tax dollars, especially while the economy is in poor shape but I want to move with speed in this scenario. A Javelin is worth it to wipe out any targets lethal to my advancing squads. That is if it can kill a two man sniper team on a roof or behind a wall. Yikes!!!
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I was playing Just Another Day & had spotted a sniper team in the Farmsteads area. This is not the scenario's fault which I believe is quite fun but in Shock Force itself. Have the Javelins been reduced in strength & especially too much against buildings? I fired a javelin at the rooftop the sniper team was on thinking that's the end of that. Next turn, the team pops back up firing at a squad I had moving through the trenches. Both are unharmed & good to go. Fire Javelin #2 & the very next turn? The sniper, this time alone, pops up & gives my squad in the trenches two casualties. Fire Javelin #3. I start hearing the pop of a sniper rifle again & the heavily armored (New secret armor?) sniper pops up again. $300,000.00 (I believe they are around $100,000.00 per missile) & two casualties later, the mighty sniper is still in the fight. What gives? A Javelin should & usually does major damage to a building, let alone the roof top. Is this a bug or a quirk in how the Javelins are coded in the game? It was pretty laughable & I really wanted to award the enemy sniper, the Medal of Honor. He was doing his thing way above the call of duty.
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In further reading, I believe they mean the .50 mounted on the main gun barrel as an "anti-sniper" system. They are also talking on other variants of the M1 having the TUSK upgrade. More reading on that. I also found out there is a TUSK 1 & a TUSK 2 upgrade. Reading still but itlooks like a different type of reactive armor on the skirts in TUSK 2 over the TUSK 1.
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In research, they are referring to a mounted sniper rifle mounted on an M1 Tusk. That's pretty interesting, I'll add more as I find it.
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Info on TUSK Abrams seems to have grown exponentially since the last time I tried looking up that vehicle.
There's discussion on another thread about BFC not turning-around their titles as quickly as expected. THIS is one reason why, vehicle X gets all modeled & skinned then just before its finalized the Army goes and does an upgrade! D'oh! The game TUSK Abrams very nearly had a RWS .50 cal on the roof and a rear slat cage until the Army pulled those design features at the last moment! Up until the year 2000 it took about three years to change a bolt on any particular vehicle, now they're rotating vehicle upgrades like the Heer circa 1943!
After looking through the book, so far it doesn't show the rear slat armor. I'm leaning towards that being scratched too. Going to read more plus look on info about the M151 RWS being used or scratched. On the 1/35 Dragon M1A2 SEP Model kit, they include the infantry telephone on the rear. I'm just waiting on the Eduard Photo etched set for the Dragon Abrams SEP. I will begin construction then & it looks like it will be a lot of fun.
Any M1 tankers out there that can supply information?
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Info on TUSK Abrams seems to have grown exponentially since the last time I tried looking up that vehicle.
There's discussion on another thread about BFC not turning-around their titles as quickly as expected. THIS is one reason why, vehicle X gets all modeled & skinned then just before its finalized the Army goes and does an upgrade! D'oh! The game TUSK Abrams very nearly had a RWS .50 cal on the roof and a rear slat cage until the Army pulled those design features at the last moment! Up until the year 2000 it took about three years to change a bolt on any particular vehicle, now they're rotating vehicle upgrades like the Heer circa 1943!
I hear that! I've been reading all the projects for upgrading the M1 & it's fascinating. I have found that the TUSK is being installed on either the M1A1 SEP or the M1A2 SEP. It's in reference to a soft cover book from Tankograd Publishing. It's the "M1A1/M1A2 SEP TUSK" written by Carl Schulze. I just received it & I'm poring over as I type. It comes in under 70 pages with tons of photos & background information on the M1 series. It is written in German & English languages, all in one book. It's definitely worth the price, around $20.00 USD. I will be building a 1/35 M1A2 SEP TUSK model & look forward to doing that. There are several after market kits for the TUSK conversion. I have received all of those but none have covered the infantry phone & the slat armor on the rear of the tank. I'm keeping my eyes open for that, I'm sure those details will be out soon by a manufacturer. Has the rear slat armor & the .50 RWS been scratched? I am still seeing pics & info that they are still being installed & used. The Legend TUSK kit has the .50 that is aligned with the main barrel. AFC Club also makes a separate kit for the M151 RWS. Thanks for your input, I really appreciate it. I'm still researching & I'll report more as I find it.
Thanks!
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Here's a link for anyone that likes to build armor models. Legend has a TUSK Upgrade Set & here are some pics:
http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4831
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Here's a good link detailing all (I think) of the M1 variants, including the TUSK:
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I'm still digging. Here's a nice link that shows some detail & pictures of the Abrams Tusk:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:OCPA-2005-03-09-165522.jpg
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I love the Tusk in the game & have been trying to read as much on it as possible. I haven't really seen whether all M1s can be fitted. They say either the M1A1 or M1A2. Is it the HA, SEP and/or the AIM version(s)? I would assume that the Army is going to have it, but are the Marines going to get this upgrade? They definitely should because of the urban battles they have had or are having in Iraq. Any help is greatly appreciated. Very cool upgrade. When I make enough money to buy one, everyone is invited to my house for a wild game BBQ, cold beer & we can terrorize the neighborhood. That would be some fun. The new LAHAT sounds fun too.
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C3K Isn't that stuff from V1.10? Whatever I find needs to be found in V1.11
I won't get around to this until tommorow. I plan to use my "sidewinder" map to do the test...it's a elevation intensive map that should give us an example of the failures described above. Hopefully some save files will come my way to more clearly define what these guys are seeing.
I'm getting ready to play a bit now. I'll see if I can get it to do it again & save the files. I am at V1.11 too. It just happened again last night. Hey, I need the "sidewinder" map so I can get into a hull down position. I'm getting better but I get my rear shot off when I'm not quite there. Still learning.
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As a quick reply, I too have noticed what I feel as just 'strange' behaviour with the javelin as of late.
Several occurances where the javelin will launch and then travel maybe 20-30 metres before impacting. Clear LOS with unsupressed AT team.
In one case I watched in amazement (in the MOUT training scenario of the training campaign) as a HQ unit managed to fire 2 out of 3 javelins into the same patch of dirt 30 metres away (2 almost identical crater's) before getting the 3rd on target.
Again, I want to yell 'bug!' but I am wondering if anyone else has seen similar cases.
David
Ditto. I posted right after the Marine module came out about the trouble with Javelins. I had & still have some go around 30 to 47 meters right into the ground. I did a clean install on both the main game & the marines & I still experience it. Wide open LOS, an unsuppressed AT firing & armor well seen. Not a good way to get the enemy's attention.
Javelins - Just Another Day
in Combat Mission Shock Force 1
Posted
I have seen that several times. It scares the h$$$ out of you when it happens. I first started looking around to see what large object was launching at me. I know it's been brought to their attention, it probably will be addressed with the Brit release.