Der Alte Fritz
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Posts posted by Der Alte Fritz
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The Eastern Front is a very different proposition from France and Italy as we have been playing before. Certainly the Soviet tactics, operational art and strategic methods were quite unlike those of the Western Allies and the Germans to a certain extent operated in a different way. It is noticeable that units sent to the East with no experience often had a rough time before they acclimatised while threadbare units often performed very well simply through experience.
So I want to start a thread where we can collect our accumulated tactical knowledge for use in the game and in designing scenarios.
In the Repository under CMBB is an article which I wrote called "The Russian Way of War" together with a map pack which goes through basic Soviet tactics and operations, the idea being that it would give readers a background knowledge in one place so that they could understand what was going on when reading battle histories and help them design realistic scenarios. The attack section is based around the attack during Operation Bagration by 11th Guards Army on the 78.Sturm.Div at Orscha and gives unit information and a short history of the battle.
You can get the "Russia Way of War" from here:
http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=314&func=fileinfo&id=131
http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=314&func=fileinfo&id=132
Another great source of information is the old threads in the CMBB section of the forums - try old grogs such as JasonC and John Kettler for a start.
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Sorry this has already been mentioned over in the "Possible Historical Scenarios" thread together with:
"In terms of lower level accounts see Foreign Military Studies:
D-276 Combat of 147.RID during Russian Winter Offensive 43
D-192 21.ID defence of Volkhov to Pskov Jan 1944
P-143c Selected divisional operations on Eastern Front Chapter 13 Defence on an Extended Front and Chapter 12 A Sustained Defensive Battle"
You can get all the PAM series of booklets from here:
http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/docrepository/
but since this is not very user friendly it helps if you know that number that you are looking for:
Department of the Army Pamphlet No. 20-230, Russian Combat Methods in World War II, November 1950.
Department of the Army Pamphlet No. 20-231, Combat in Russian Forests and Swamps, July 1951.
Department of the Army Pamphlet No. 20-232, Airborne Operations, A German Appraisal, October 1951.
Department of the Army Pamphlet No. 20-233, German Defence Tactics Against Wishing Break Throughs, October 1951.
Department of the Army Pamphlet No. 20-234, Operations of Encircled Forces, German Experience in Russia, January 1952.
Department of the Army Pamphlet No. 20-290, Terrain Factors in the Russian Campaign, July 1951.
Department of the Army Pamphlet No. 20-291, Effects of Climate on Combat in European Russia, February 1952.
Department of the Army Pamphlet No. 20-292, Warfare in the Far North, October 1951
there are other titles listed here as well: http://www.kingtigerebooks.co.uk/department-of-the-army-pamphlets.htm
The Foreign Military Studies are available from http://www.fold3.com/browse.php#251|hQ7exmc5x
For Russian sources see: militera.lib.ru which has a huge amount of material.
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Well Jentz gives figures for strength of 23.Pz.D as 31st May 1944 as:
10 PzIV (10 operational)
52 PzV (26 operational)
other than that it was a long serving Panzer Division on the Ostfront and had not been destroyed at any point, so it is not specifically mentioned in the 1944 reorganisation.
The standard Panzer Division 44 structure lists the Panz. Aufkl. Abt. as a Headquarters, 3 PzGr Kompanie in half tracks with an armoured car Kompanie (again in half tracks). This differs from the Sept 43 one that I posted by changing a motorcycle Kompanie into a half track Kompanie and dropping the wheeled armoured car Kompanie. So not a huge difference for our purposes. Perhaps the Divisional History has something to say on the subject.
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You can have a look here (using Chrome browser to translate the site for you) at the history of the 25th Tank Corps:
http://www.tankfront.ru/ussr/tk/tk25.html
and 1st Cavalry Corps
http://www.tankfront.ru/ussr/kk/gvkk01.html
The Two independent Tank Regiments I listed above were assigned to the 1st and 2nd Cavalry Divisions and they were equipped with Valentines (around 40) and Honeys (around 20). The Tank Corps was equipped with T-34, SU-85 and SU-76 and was certainly held in reserve behind the Cavalry who scouted forward. So I suspect that your action was between Cavalry backed up by Valentines (40mm or 6 pdr) and Honeys (37mm). Try initially with T60 or T70 until the Lend Lease stuff is delivered by BF.
I think your action could well be represented by the Germans in the south scouting northwards and the Soviets with orders to move from east to west across the board with an objective on the far side of a large map. Make the map very large, fairly open but divided up into 6-8 'boxes', that will help your Germans with their longer range fire but still keep the mystery (if you keep the forces small enough they can occupy only one or two boxes at a time.) Give the Soviets a handful of T-34 and proper infantry as reinforcements at the end to give the Germans a bloody nose but not long enough for them to wipe them off the face of the earth and you should have a pretty good semi historical scenario. Remember to give the Soviets enough brownie points for getting from one edge of the map to the other so that they do attempt it rather than swinging round into a full scale battle. This will compensate them for the extra expenditure on the 'heavy forces' at the end which cannot be used to their full effect.
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Panzer Recon Bn in more detail (I hope)
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Krosno is in southern Poland around 200km to the west of Lemberg (Lvov) and its great railway junction and is just to the south of the great railway line that runs from Lemberg through Przemysl westwards to Krakow and then into Silesia and the German junction of Oppeln. It is just to the north of the famous Dukla Pass through the Carpathians and close to Rzeszów the largest town in SE Poland.
This places it firmly in the L'vov Sandomir Offensive by the 1st Ukranian Front. This particular area was covered by the Cav Mech Group No.1 (Baranov) who role was flank guard for the main thrust of the 1st Guards Tank Army which was several hundred km to the north and west and would arrive on the eastern bank of Vistula on the 29th July. To the east the 4th Tank Army, 38th and 1st Guards Army were trying to destroy the XXXXVI Pz Corps and XXIV Pz Corps of 1st Panzer Army to the south of Lemberg and pushing them back to the Carpathians. They would fail to encircle these forces who would live to fight another day. The principal loss would be the encirclement at Brody
Into this 300km 'gap' between the forces around Lemberg and the defenders of the Vistula drove the 23rd and 24th Panzer Divisions of LIX Corps who held positions about 60km apart, the 23rd was obviously guarding the Dukla Pass which if captured would open up the interior of Romania to invasion. German reinforcements would seek to close this gap which they would succeed in doing by the 8th August. But by that time the main Soviet force would be across the Vistula and forming the bridgehead from which the Vistula-Oder Operation would be launched.
So Soviet forces are:
CavMech Group No1
1st Guards Cav Corps (1st 2nd 7th Cav Divisions)
25th Tank Corps (111th, 162nd & 175thTank Bde 20th Motorised Bde)
58th & 61st Tank Regt
1451st. 1244th, 1253rd SAU Rgt
143rd 1497th AT Regt (plus another from 3rd Guards Army)
2nd Guards Mortar Bn
319th & 1702nd AA Regt
28,969 men, 366 guns and mortars, 74 At guns, 50 AA guns, 303 tanks and SAU. (133 T-34, 47 T-70, 50 Other (probably Lend Lease, captured, etc,) 1 ISU152, 3 ISU122, 20 SU85, 49 SU76, total 303)
The operation starts on the 12th July and ends on the 18th August so almost three weeks into the operation on 29th July the Soviet forces would be quite worn down and coming to the end of their strength.
CavMech Group 1 had orders to sweep along the northern edge of the mountain chain as flank guard for the main offensive
The 23rd Pz organisation - the closest I can get is from late 1943 (Kreigsgliederung Band II T78 Roll 407 H1/97) which is here:
source The Battle for L'vov July 1944 Soviet General Staff Study David Glantz & Harold Orenstein published Frank Cass 2002 (I am proud to say that I helped publish it.)
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I think i am going to make a splash screen / music mod for CMRT. All other splash screen mods i ve found at the repository for all other ww2 CMx2 titles were all in black and white. I feel that is taking the life out of the pictures, IMO it is much more immersive to have colored ones. I already started to collect appropriate pictures, examples below:
http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/3887/panzerivfarbbild2012pic.jpg
http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/WW2+Color+Combat+Photo+Whermacht_2c40a8_3803259.jpg
EDIT: btw, i would be very happy if anyone could point me to any eastern front high quality photograph in colour. High quality color photos of that period are quite rare, even on the internet.
Try here: http://www.ww2incolor.com/
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George Mc did a very similar CMBB scenario called "Tankyvi Desant" which was a reinforced Soviet tank company (acting as the very tip of the spear of a rapidly advancing Tank Army) bumping into German Recon forces. Very large map, very few forces.
http://www.blowtorchscenarios.com/Tankovyi%20Desant/Tankovyi%20Desant%20scenario%20details.htm
The key here is that the Soviets are not interested in finding the Germans and destroying them, they are interested in finding a way round the Germans to continue the advance, follow on forces will find and engage. They find them, fix them and go around. They only fight when they have to and Soviet reconnaissance is based on stealth rather than fighting for information.
You can make a really interesting scenario from this kind of situation - Germans are stumbling around in the dark, on the defensive, Soviets are trying to find their way forward and past any Germans, will fight against weak opposition if needed but do not have the time or resources to engage in a heavy battle, knowing that 50km behind them is a vast armada of troops.
A large board is a help here and an asymetrical placing of the opening forces, Germans down one side, Soviets trying to go ACROSS the board from one end to the other. Use dark, fog, mist, etc to increase the confusion and give both sides orders so that keen commanders will bump into one another but not press too hard. Perhaps give the German commander a number of objectives in front of him to defend (only one of which is likely to be used by the Soviets) if he chooses. You really want to push the German commander into finding out the situation in front of him so that he can take decisive action (perhaps by sending later reinforcements to the correct point) while the Soviet commander is using his FLANK SCREEN forces to delay and conceal his intentions while his main tank force roars off down the board and captures that vital river crossing.
A good way to confuse the Germans is to make it seem as if they have control over one edge of the map while the Soviets control the other 3 edges.
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I presume on the subject of cavalry that we are back to the old notion of providing them with jeeps to represent horses for tactical moves.
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While we are on the subject is there a basic idiots guide to modding in CMx2 Version 3 including the new 'mod tags'? Or a mod guide at all?
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And where do people prefer to post their mods, the Official Repository or GreenAsJades Warehouse?
Looking at
CMFI BF: 146 GAJ: roughly 140
CMBN BF: 687 GAJ: 371
And where do people post their scenarios, The Scenario Depot II does not have them.
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I'm still on the fence as to whether I'm going to buy RT, but if I do I don't think I could stop myself from doing something with/to that UI. Even if it's just to get rid of that hideous green color.
Please do....it is now a mature system and an interesting subject and it will be really good once we get snow.
Agreed about the UI - in CMBB Dark Steel was always my favourite but many of the others were very good such as GURRAS Eastern Front interface, especially the later ones for CMAK such as VOSSIE's that helped brighten up the screen with warning colours, etc.
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"Russian tank paint color is named 4BO"
I know, I have seen whole modelling forums devoted to 4BO and websites too:
http://www.4bogreen.com/colors
In an attempt to pin it down, people have used the original recipe and mixed it in real life, trudged round tank museums looking at old tanks (most of which have been repainted a dozen times since the war) examined ones pulled out of swamps, looked at the vehicles at Aberdeen Proving Ground (which travelling by sea had salt corrosion and had considerably darkened since they set off), looked at the original paint chips held on file at the Ministry of Defence...etc, etc.
The most salient point is that this was not a stable colour, on any tank it would weather quite quickly and the materials used by the Soviets in the manufacture of the paints were not of the best quality and not colour stable.
But I do like the old Uncle Tgt range of bluey-green (and I build my models in that colour too.) So if anyone has a few hours/days spare.........
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Also without wanting to open up the endless debate about the colour of Soviet tanks, the current ones look too olive drab for my liking and I would welcome the return of the old CMBB blue-green alternative
One thing that has changed since the original CMBB came out is the recovery from various rivers ans swamps of entire, complete T34 and KV-1 vehciles often in their original paintwork.
Examples like this one: http://www.diving.ee/articles/art035.html
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=114287
which shows the colour is quite a green colour.
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Destruction of Army Group Center series:
Battle Near Lenin HSG AG
Berezina Ballet HSG AG
Dangerous Information HSG AG (This one being JasonC's 5.PD meeting 5 Tank Army engagement)
Flexing their Claws AI HSG AG7
Flexing their Claws H2H HSG AG7
Krupki Rail Station HSG AG6
Steamroller HSG AG
The Crossroads HSG AG4
The Raid HSG AG5
CSDT scenarios:
Beating the Odds CSDT -
Flak Dance at Vilna AG3 CSDT -
Hill of Heros CSDT -
Sgt. Feibecke at Ozero AG1 CSDT -
Boots & Tracks:
Sword of Bagration (MP) B&T
The MOD Files:
The Road to Minsk
Return to Borisov
Historical:
Royal Opponent
Semi-historical:
5th SS PzGr Wiking
A Simple Attack
A Simple Attack, Comrade
Airbase at Mirlovsk
Cracking the Egg
PanzerBlitz Situation #1
PanzerBlitz Situation #20
PanzerBlitz Situation #4
Schwerpunkt Glowaczow I
Storm Tide, Poland
Storming the 78th
Stuetzpunkt Glowaczow II
Surprise party H2H
Swamp Cats
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JasonC
Well done that is a good suggestion. Picture of one of the Panthers attached to this post.
In terms of lower level accounts see Foreign Military Studies:
D-276 Combat of 147.RID during Russian Winter Offensive 43
D-192 21.ID defence of Volkhov to Pskov Jan 1944
P-143c Selected divisional operations on Eastern Front Chapter 13 Defence on an Extended Front
Also
PAM 20-269 Small Unit Actions during the German Campaign in Russia
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Also without wanting to open up the endless debate about the colour of Soviet tanks, the current ones look too olive drab for my liking and I would welcome the return of the old CMBB blue-green alternative
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With the Soviet uniforms being fairly standard brown colour it would be good to get some camouflage versions for the Recon units (as we will not get any Airborne units until later with their camo uniforms.)
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It is available for PRE-PURCHASE download. So you can select the download/mail version and pre-order it but it is not yet released. If pre-ordered then you get an email when they are ready for you to download it.
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OK we will call it a semi historical scenario.
Taking suggestion two about 4 Armee, fine as far as it goes but where is the detail?
Where is the northern flank? It is the town of Vitebsk part of the Tiger Line
What date? The night of the 23rd/24th Jue 1944
Which corps/division/regiment/battalion/company? Vitebsk was held by the LIII Corps which was composed of four divisions, 206.ID & 246 I.D and 4.Lw.Feld.D & 6.Lw.Feld.D
Who are the Soviets - again which corps/division/regiment/battalion/company? Attack was made by 43rd Army in the north of the city and the 39th Army in the south. http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/maps/1944NW/1PF/39A_Vitebsk_Plan_June22_44.jpg
The 4.Lw.Feld.D was tasked with moving to the south west out of the city to prepare a break out but itself got cut off in the town of Ostrovno by the 39th Army.
This is depicted in a nice maps here: http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/maps/1944NW/1PF/39A_June23_44.gif
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/maps/1944NW/1PF/39A_tank_operations_Vitebsk_June23_28_44.jpg
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/maps/1944NW/1PF/39A_June25_44.gif
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/maps/1944NW/1PF/39A_June26_27_44.gif
and it is something that could be scaled down quite nicely I think.
See general references here:
http://www.flamesofwar.com/default.aspx?tabid=112&art_id=1062&kb_cat_id=35
http://www.ushmm.org/online/film/display/detail.php?file_num=0336
http://www.histomil.com/viewtopic.php?f=326&t=12178&start=10
http://zi.zavantag.com/tw_files2/urls_10/966/d-965046/7z-docs/1.pdf
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Here is a proposal for a series of scenarios detailing the different experiences of divisions along HG Mitte front during the day of 22nd June 1944.
1) Divisions defending Vitebsk - German defence of a surrounded town while Soviet forces bypass it.
2) Northern flank of 4.Armee - a forest landscape with a single small road running across it (representing a forest light railway track) Soviet forces must rush down this narrow artery while weak German forces from north and south struggle to close the gap.
3) 78.Sturm - Heavily fortified narrow position is successsfully defended against a vast armoured attack following a rolling barrage - the Soviets get mine roller tanks and flame tanks while the Germans have Nashorns firing from a low ridge at the rear of their position.
4) An infantry division in the south which finds itself defending alone against weak attacks while heavy Soviet attacks overwhelm the divisions on either side.(Rather like George Mc's End Game for Endemann scenario - one of my all time favourites)
5) While not strictly on the first day I think we should include a counter attack by a Panzer Division down a forested marshy road while the Soviets get their own back by sending a Cav-Mech Group through the forest behind them
6) The Soviets have to seize a railway bridge over a river by a rapid assault against an Infantry Division thinly spread along a river line.
I am sure that people could add their own ideas to this list.
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Hello John and Scott,
I think a lot of us moved over to the RKKA forum over at Armchair General.
Major Lukin appeared in at least two CMBB scenarios based on the Kalinin Raid, one featuring a U shaped road round round a lake and the other was simple a very long narrow map with a road through the forest.
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I have Hintzes books and never found much in the way of descriptions of the "smaller scale" actions, neither in Glantz I am afraid. I suppose on the Soviet side "Tank Rider" gives a few.
JasonC: Good to see all the old Ostfront Grogs reappearing. Where do these 5.PD accounts appear?
I found the Foreign Military Studies (virtually all the translated ones are available from Fold3 now,) to be a useful source of smaller scale descriptions.
Building Guderian's Duck (JPz IV) master's thesis
in Combat Mission Red Thunder
Posted
The problem is that the site does not allow links directly to articles. (Who said that this was a government funded IT project?)
Go to the home page http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/
and in the search bar at the top type in Guderian's duck (with the apostrophe) and you will find it.
I think the thing to note of course, is that Zeitler would never have been able to get this sort of change through the Nazi hierarchy, it took Guderian, both soldier, Panzer Mann, and with industry links and Hitlers ear and confidence. So the JgPzIV appeared much later than perhaps was feasible leaving essentially a gap between it and the earlier lash ups like the Marders.