Der Alte Fritz
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Posts posted by Der Alte Fritz
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I would like details of two 3000 point British force, one infantry, the other armoured for mainly 43 Tunisia but also for late 42 Western Desert and 43 Italy. Also how they are used.
thank you
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Hi George
The notes are the collected Russian Training Scenarios threads from this forum, edited with some notes by me and some useful articles like the artillery one. Originally written to train my brother in CMBB, I have sorted them into a more useful form. Really up to JasonC as 85% of it is his work. I am happy for my parts to be used.
cheers
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JasonC It would be a big help if you could give me the typical German forces to match our Soviet ones above. 3000 points with Infantry, PzGr and Panzer parent divisions for 1942 and 1943 and typical lines units rather than SS. Thank you.
I have got from other threads '44 Panzer 5000, 3000, 2000 and '44 infantry 3000 and 2000 point forces. Also Arm Recce force and PzGr (Mech) and (Armoured) 1500 point forces
Operation Uranus continues but I realised after playing 22nd Pz vs 5 TA that it must be an old version and have now downloaded the new one which looks winnable. Have posted results of OLD version on TPG.
cheers
[ September 16, 2006, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: Der Alte Fritz ]
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Hi
Yes it was just a test force with three different positions on the map that were engaged in succession. But the force worked well against them all. The recce forces were very good on a large map as the jeeps could rush off in all directions to find the way forward.
Am playing through the Op Uranus series again and am posting reports on TPG for the ones I have not done before.
Have almost finished the Russian Training scenario notes - just want to add a section that you wrote on JS-2s and I will email it to you.
cheers
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Just been experimenting with the Tank Bn forces discussed above. Used the map from Tankyoi Desant as it is 2km by 2.5km as the column is quite long when formed up and used the version of the November 43 Tank Bn. Costs around 4,500 points so put as defenders 2 Co German Infantry with 2x75mm and 1x50mm AT guns 2x Marder 2 pl PzIVH and a Panther and around 2,800 points.
Soviet force seemed to operate very well, all the infantry types found room on the tanks with the FO, leaving the support weapons to travel in the lorries. The recce forces spread out across the map to find the way and the enemy, main body moved up and did tank assaults on any defended position with the support units ready to come forward to help with any tough opposition.
Engaged enemy armour in sufficient numbers that the Soviets prevailed in the end.
So it looks like a very well balanced force.
cheers
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So we have two quite different interpretations of the force types given to the lead Tank Bn of a Tank Bde. Even within the Tank Brigade itself which I believe is a self contained unit and so should be close to the TOE with losses. I am fairly sure that the MR Bde operated on its own and was not split up, so I would go with 1 company of SMG troops per Tank Bn and not the 2 proposed.
There can be more differences about what Corps troops would be given out as this would vary from mission to mission but I think that troops such as recce forces, pioneers and 120mm mortar support are likely to have been split over the 3 Tank Bde while the MR Bde was pretty self sufficient in this respect. Not clear as to what the recce forces were. From Zladoga I have the Recce Co of the MR Bde in Scout Cars but I have the Corps Recce Bn mounted on motorcycles so I think the latter are more likely and depicted in jeeps in the absence of m/c.
I think that the Tank Destroyer (either guns or later SUs) were probably committed as full units like they were at Kursk but I am really confused about how SUs were committed. I take JasonC's point about them being committed as batteries (ie in groups of 4) and that they were assigned for particular operations so I would imagine 4 SU 152 being assigned to support the Tank Bde when needed. In Nov 1943 a Tank Corps has one SU Regt of 12 SU152s with Two Tank Destroyer Regts one of 21 SU76 and the other of 16 SU-122 (formerly 45mm and 76mm AT guns and later replaced by SU85 and SU100?) Is this right?
So from Tank Bde Nov 1943 10/500 type:
21 T-34
1 SMG Co
4 DP LMG
2 Maxims
2 82mm mortars
0-2 45mm AT guns
1 ATR pl
2-3 AA HMG HT
from Corps level usually attached:
3 BA64
1 m/c recce pl (in jeeps)
1 pioneer pl
1-2 120mm 6 tubes FO
from Corps level attached for specific ops:
4 SU152
1 Rocket FO
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Allowing for the infantry to be the heavier SMG type with DPs that would give 9 sections 3 platoon HQ and 1 Co HQ with about 5/6 men per section. So about half the tanks have someone to carry?
If we look about 6 months later in April 1944 how many T34/85 have we got and has any of the above changed all that much?
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Right, so what does that give us in game terms?
By my calculations our lead Tank Bn of the Brigade gets:
19 x T34 M43
1 x T34 M43/57
1 x T34 M42
1 x Company SMG Infantry (at 30-50% strength)
2 x Maxim
3 x ATR
4 x 82mm mortars
3 x trucks
and from Corps HQ as we are the lead Bde of the Corps extra recce, pioneers and artillery forces like:
2 x Recce Pl
3 x BA64 ac
2 x pioneers pl
6 x 120mm mortar FO
12 x SU152
or other combinations of rockets, 76mm artillery or SUs
Does that look about right for your force?
cheers
[ September 09, 2006, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: Der Alte Fritz ]
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That is very helpful because none of my sources go much below Corps level. Have a few memoirs on order from Amazon such as "Tank Rider" which may give examples of how these units operated.
Wanted to understand how the TOE related to reality on the ground so that I can pick forces from other eras such as Spring '44.
Tried putting the 5000 force onto a map last night but it was way too small. What size of map am I looking at?
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Thanks for all that detail. Great Stuff!
Just to clarify, I am talking about a Tank Bde as part of a Tank Corps and not an independent one.
A couple of questions.
(1) I have been looking over at the RKKA site at maps of Tank Corps operating at the Battle of Kursk and they show Tank Corps operating each Brigade as a separate entity and as the standard element of manoeuvre. So the Motor Rifle Bde is not spread out over the 3 Tank Brigades but functions on its own. Likewise Glantz mentions an incident when a Tank Corps leaves its MR Bde behind and just sends the 3 Tank Bdes off to meet a new threat. Does the MR Bde get spread out over Tank Bdes or is this later on in the war?
(2)Given this the Tank Bde would have to rely on its own organic infantry - 1 Battalion of 2 companies Motor Rifle troops and 1 company SMG troops? Also the "Red Army Handbook" says that both the Tank Bde organisations of July 1942 10/270 and November 1943 10/500 have 1 battalion of infantry for a tank brigade with one company of SMG tank riders and two of Motor Rifle (1942) and two of SMG (1943) both these having 9 LMG 2 Maxims and 3 AT Rifles. So a Tank Bn ends up with a single company in support?
(3) July 1943 How many tanks in a Bde? Using 10/270 July 1942 I have one medium Bn of T-34 with 3 companies for a total of 31 T-34 and a light bn of 2 companies of T-70 for a total of 21. This changes in November 1943 to 10/500 which has a Bde of three Medium battalions each of two companies of T-34 total 21 with a brigade strength of 65 T-34. Were other organisatiosn being used alongside these?
(4) When Corps assets were sent to support a Tank Bde did they tends to send sections, batteries, battalions or the whole regiment? I know that Army level units tended to be committed as a whole unit presumably so that the Army could recall them quickly to redeploy elsewhere. So was it more common for all 12 SU-152 in the regt to be sent or were they sent section by section?
cheers
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I am putting together a standard force taken from a Soviet Tank Corps of up to 5000 points built around a Tank Bn but am a bit stuck with the TOE.
Based on Nov 1943 Tank Bde (10/500-506)heart of the unit is a Tank Bn of 21 T-34.
Infantry - The SMG Bn provides a company of tank riders split between 3 tank Bns so our one gets 1 platoon of 3 sections. Seems a bit light as it is 6 half a sections plus HQ spread over 21 tanks. Does another Company come along in trucks?
Corps units would provide 1 battery of 6 120mm mortars (out of 6 available)and some SUs 12 SU152 21 SU76 and 16 SU122 available so allowing most of the SU76 and 122 to the MR Bde that would give our Tank Bn 2 SU152 (12 spread over 9 Tank Bns)
Rocket support for an attacking force.
What do you think is the correct level of support for a Tank Bn?
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Hi George
Just finished Tankovyi Desant. Immense fun! It really is a pleasure to have a big map to drive across and you really have to go for it to finish within 45 moves. Really tempted to have a go as the Germans.
cheers
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Thanks! I had forgotten that part.
cheers
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In this scenario, the 122mm Howitzers are supposed to be targeted on the main woods on move one and to use the 'Q'button to delay and to land about the time you expect your infantry to arrive in the area, say about move 15 to 20. The 120mm mortars is supposed to be used with LOS (and hence a shorter delay) on perhaps one or two infantry concentrations.
cheers
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I have two scenarios were artillery is the main arm. One is a German company position that you can pound with a variety of different guns. Rather dull really. But the other is a small Russian unit on the far side of a river that will be over run unless the artillery can stop a German attack by company sized forces and tanks. Only plays vs AI but you could make your own with different play balance for H2H.
cheers
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They are available from www.blowtorchscenarios.com and if you get stuck you can ask the forums, search the forums using "Russian Training scenarios" for answers, or I have a lot of them in a single document that I can email. The author JasonC is very good at giving quick answers so often the best way is to simply post here.
cheers
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Hi George
am giving Tankovyi Desant a go as Russian vs AI. Have found a village with some half tracks in it and am merrily blasting away!
cheers
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One question on dates. When did the Red Army first start using its Mech force type attacks? Was it in April '42 when the first new style Tank Corps appeared?
cheers
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Can't wait to try Kutuzov but will play Uranus right through again (inc the Germans vs AI scenarios).
Since there are a couple more people playing through the training scenarios again, I will edit the collection of posts that I made. You have a copy.
I want to add at the end some standard 1500 and 3000 point forces. I have 1500 point ones for Motor Rifle Bn in 43 and Tank Bn - so the two arms of a Tank or Mech Corps. Could you post an idea of a 1500 point breakthrough Infantry force, the 3000 point versions and any variations for 42 or 44.
Also I will add a list of good scenarios to play at the end.
cheers
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Victory! Finally managed to play one of these scenarios and win it first time around.
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Following sage advice, I put all the tanks on the right flank and drove forward to assault the wood, blasting likely looking cover along the way. Killed a shreck team that way. Sent the tank riders forward at a run to spot the enemy in the wood and then blasted them with the tanks. Lost two T-34s to an AT gun in the woods but the rest killed him. Meanwhile the SMG and pioneers went and cleared the woods beside the road to protect the left flank of the armour and got into the village. Sent the second platoon of tank riders forward to clear the houses at the edge of the village, moved the armour forward and starting blasting anyone that fired at the infantry.
The support group of MG mortars and ISU-152 set up in one of the central woods and blasted the left hand side of the village. Lost 2 HT to MG fire but we killed him in the end. Drove a ISU-152 and the Co HQ and 82mm mortar forward to just behind the infantry with the remaining HT.
Panther appeared at this point and one ISU fired at him, bounced a shell off his turret and retreated. Later the other got a keyhole shot and fired but missed and was killed by return fire. Panther unable to see T-34s firing from shelter of wood so worked round to the left straight into the keyhole sight of the remaining ISU-152 who blew him apart!
Infantry now well into rubble around flag, so final assault went in around move 12 with T-34 firing in support. Cleared flag house and also woods on left by move 14 so offered a ceasefire.
The firepower from my 4 T-34-85 was incredible and the speed of the assault was always at FAST with the tanks driving forward to keep up. Anyone who got pinned recovered quickly because the tanks killed the firer almost immediately. Main problem was keeping the support forces up with the infantry which left them vulnerable. The main casualties were from an artillery strike which caught resting pioneers and the HT mortar team on the edge of the village after we had taken the flag.
These were a great series of scenarios and I have learnt so much from them. I think the only thing they need is a scenario(s) at the end to show how these tactics fit into the history that one reads. For instance a scenario(s) set in late 43 that shows the sequence of the infantry breakthrough, the armour tactical use to defeat reserves and the use of armour in the operational hinterland. Perhaps the Operation Uranus series could be adapted to show this?
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Quite true as far as it goes. But this strongpoint is just one part of a defensive system that might be 30km in depth. A heavy artillery barrage (or even modern guided artillery) will blow apart individual strongpoints but you cannot move your artillery forward quickly enough or supply it rapidly enough to destroy the entire system and the enemy artillery will also play its part. See JasonC other posts on how these individual positions were individually overwhelmed but the casulatlies they caused and the sheer depth of the defences ground the heaviest German attack down. Mobile reserves would interveen when the attack was slowing and along the flanks to further damage the enemy.
cheers
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This is the list that I have so far for Soviet vs AI games. Does anyone know good games that were rescued from the old Scenario Depot?
cheers
Good Scenarios to Play as Russians
Soviets v AI
Operation Uranus series JasonC TPG
Iron Roadblock CD
TSD
HSG T-34 Threat vs AI By: MAD RUSSIAN
SB Beginning of the.. By: HANS
POS-Duck Shoot By: POOR OLD SPIKE
SB Small Day in Schwedt By: HANS
HSG Ksk Knights of Old By: MAD RUSSIAN
POS-Tiger Stalk By: POOR OLD SPIKE
SB A Simple Attack By: HANS
HSG AG Berezina Ballet By: MAD RUSSIAN
TPG
HSG Kalinin Raid By: BERTRAND DOSSMANN excellent
David Vs Goliath By: STAMASPAMA
Elefant Charge By: STAMASPAMA
ATS-PL2 Ripping the line By: STEELWHIP2001
Roadcut By: PAVLOV
Bokachevo, July, '43,V2 By: KENFEDOROFF
Korsun Salient By: KIPWATSON
Nikitinka Station By: KENFEDOROFF
Pebbles in the Stream By: STEELWHIP2001
Rear Guard (AI) By: BANNON DC
Counterstroke E1 by DEY
Andreas Biermann
A Gift from Afar
A visit at dawn
Bringing it on
FD Kutuzov
RAS The drama begins
RAS Turning East
RAS Small assault
SP Waltzing Matilda
The sideshow
Boots and Tracks
Hitlers Son
Odessa Reprive
SP Antonescu Kaputt
SP Hollow Legion
SP What might have been
Pershotraneye Ridge
Richie
Battle for Reichstag
Across Moltke bridge
Blowtorch Scenarios
JasonC Training Ones
Stuetzpunkt Glowaczow
Born Again at Prokhorovka
Tankovyi Desant
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Looks good. So I shall start digging my trenches right away.
My other project was to put the 3rd Bn 1241th Regt 375th Rifle Division on a map following the RKA map. On that map it is marked as occuping position bNTY No6 and has the big AT position behind it with 20 AT guns. The infantry position is described as having 2 76mm AT guns (NTP) 4 45mm AT guns and 9 ATR. Looks like the Bn is spread over about 1000m front. When you put this onto a CMBB map the company defensive positions are pretty spread out. What sort of defensive positions would they be occupying?
schematic
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/maps/1943SW/Kursk/1241Reg_375RD_Kursk_s46reg_Jul05_43.jpg
topographical
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/maps/1943SW/Kursk/375th_RflDiv1943.jpg
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I see. I assume that you mean that we are looking at a flattened diamond shape with a depth of around 400m and width of 600m? So to put one of these positions onto a CMBB map would require the bulk of the defenders side of the map. I will have a go at constructing one soon based on the 375th Rifle Div map that I have of AT defences at Kursk. The NTP No1 position has 20 76mm guns and 23 ATR.
I have put one of the first line Bn of the 375th on a CMBB map and was suprised by the amount of "space" there was.
Pacific War
in Combat Mission - Scenario Talk
Posted
There are mods available over at CMMODS for the pacific and even a few scenarios. Search the forums as this topic has been raised before.