[Good books on Bagration]

Started to read both Ziemke and Milsom.

Are there any suggestions for other good Eastern Front books - any period not just '44.

cheers

[Typical German Force Makeup]

Noted. I was concerned about the balance of the Tank Corps scenario. Using the 5000 point force, armour forces are: 21 T-34 4 SU-122 1 IL-2. They are attacking against the StuG - PAK - Shreck option above with armour forces of 3 StuG IIIG mid 3 PAK 40 and 3 Shreck plus 2 50mm PAK instead of air cover. On a large open map, I would reckon to lose half the T-34s to this line up as the Stormovik would take care of at least one StuG. Does this sound balanced or should I swap the StuGs for Marders?

Infantry breakthrough scenario looks quite balanced. Used the "Dug in infantry" listed above against 1 green Russian Bn supported by 4 KV-1 and extra artillery. Russian has to be careful but once the AT guns are gone KVs can blast through the fixed defences.

cheers

[Anti Tank Guns and the AI]

A proverbial problem is that the AI opens fire far too soon with its AT assets.

Here are a couple of ideas that I have used to get AT guns focussed on a small patch of ground to replicate the fire control done by human players.

1) Put a terrain "hump" just in front of the gun. As it cannot fire over it, you can position it to fire round the side and hence get a cover arc.

2) place the gun in a gully of 2 heights depth but with a slope to the front of 1 height depth. Again cannot fire to the side but can fire down the gully.

Does anyone have any other methods?

cheers

[Typical German Force Makeup]

Just to clarify which StuGs we are talking about for '43 after Kursk. These are ones with long 75mm and 50mm or 80mm front?

cheers

[Typical German Force Makeup]

Hi JasonC

Have finished my scenario with a 5000 point force from a Tank Corps meeting a German infantry force of 3000 points StuG - PAK - Shreck (tank killing) version while driving across a big map.

Next project is a breakthrough attack same period post-Kursk. Rifle Division supported by heavy tank regt assaulting a German Infantry Division. Typical German defences are too deep at 5km so I am assuming they have already broken through the outpost line and this will be the assault on the MLR.

What would be good for a German force if the Russian force is 3000 points, Infantry KVs and artillery. Want to put it as reduced strength/weakened to simulate effect of opening bombardment.

Secondly mid 43, how common are 50mm PAKs in infantry forces?

many thanks

[Good books on Bagration]

On the same site there are two further good articles one on German defence techniques and the other on defensive tactics used by the Russian at Kursk.

[Best German HT mods?]

If memory serves me right there is a white HT with a red air recognition flag on the bonnet which I got from Blowtorch scenarios site. It was done for the Peiper scenarios.

cheers

[Captured Russian tank modeling]

John

INcluded info on short 75 Pz III so that you had an overall picture of the fleet, short/long 50 and short 75.

It is interesting that the SS had many more tanks than their Panzer Division counterparts. But although they had more standard tanks, a lot of the extra numbers are older models, captured tanks or assault guns. So you could have scenarios involving the ss where they have to fight in obselete vehicles rather then the usual uber ones.

cheers

[Good books on Bagration]

I had an initial look on Amazon but got a better price on many of the books at www.abebooks.com or .co.uk so have bought from there. If you do not know it ABE is a clearing house for second hand book dealers. For instance Ziemke was £29.50 on Amazon and £11 on ABE. So I have ordered that and Milsom for the tank info again £29.19 on Amazon and £11 on ABE. Dunn was £20 on boh Amazon and ABE.

Cannot find Hintze in english only german.

cheers

[Good books on Bagration]

Yes I know. Sorry to be cost driven at present but I have just bought a new kitchen and a complete make over of the living room, so cheap and cheerful is our motto at the moment! I will put it on my Christmas list.

Any views on Colossus Reborn? Or on these Nafziger books - seem to repeat what is in the 1944 Combat Regulations?

cheers

[Captured Russian tank modeling]

John Kettlers Tiger Damage Photo:

According to Zetterling there were only 34 75mm Pz III spread across 3rd 6th 7th and 19th Pz Div. Short 50mm Pz III appears in only one unit: 3rd SS Pz-Grn Totenkopf who have a staggering 59! Everyone else had the L60. Obviously the tank resupply officer had met some dodgy used car salesman in the remount department who off loaded his whole stock of our of date Pz IIIs!

cheers

[Captured Russian tank modeling]

John

Further to your breakdown of Das Reich, Zetterling has the complete unit breakdown day by day. This shows on 4th July:

PzIII 5cm/L42 1

PzIII 5cm/L60 47

PzIV 75cm/L45/48 30

PzVI 12

Marders 8

StuG 33

T34 18

so quite a mixture really.

[Captured Russian tank modeling]

There is a picture in Purnells History of the Second World War of two Russian tankers beside the turret of a Tiger examining 6 shell hits. One os sitting on the Tiger and the other is standing on the ground with his finger in one of the holes.

Is this the one John?

[Captured Russian tank modeling]

Good we seem to have reached a sensible arrangement on the 76mm gun.

What about the 85mm gun and its inferior ammunition in 1943? This affects the 85mm AT regts at Kursk and the SU-85 from Sept till 1944.

Principal use of this weapon was as a Tiger killer as detailed on Russian Battlefield site. "In September 1943, during the Dnieper crossing, there was the very first usage of SU-85's. This TD become a very popular in the Red Army due to its powerful gun that was able to penetrate German Tigers and Panthers from a quite long distances."

Since you cannot change the Tiger PzIVE, in a manner similar to JasonCs suggestion above, can you set the scenario designer to 1944, buy an SU-85 and then reset it to July 1943 and hence avoid the ammo penalty?

The scale of this effect is well known but to give an example, on a firing range against 3 stationary and empty Tigers and firng 3 SU-85s at 500m. On average in 1943 it takes two moves to get the first KO and four moves for all the Tigers to be KOed. Many hits but most have the shell break up. In 1944 all are killed in the first move and many with the first hit.

cheers

[Differences between the Allies. A Russian Arnhem?]

I was imagining a "what-if" scenario. At Arnhem, when 11th Armoured Division halted at Antwerp in early September, they failed to block the retreat of the German 15th Army, capture the north bank of the Scheldt or push on to capture the Rhine crossings. They had already driven 250 miles but Horrocks is quoted as saying that they had 100 miles of petrol left.

I just imagined if there had been a Soviet Tank Corps there and what they would have done. I bet they would have driven the 65 miles to Arnhem, dug in and hung on till the rest of the army got more fuel and fought their way up to them.

[Good books on Bagration]

John

Thanks for the tip, I think I will get this instead of Zaloga as I need info on things other than tanks, and my favorite vehicle is the SU-85 - had a Tamiya model as a child!

George

Looks good. Have added it to the list. Roll on Christmas! Have you seen :

Russian Tanks of World War II: Stalin's Armoured Might (Hardcover)

by Tim Bean, Will Fowler

Is this any good, as it gets a rave review at amazon.

cheers

[Grants/Lees - Hull down or no?]

The Russian called the Lee "a grave for seven brothers"!

Keep them hidden in scattered trees in pairs to engage the enemy when they come into sight or behind buildings and use short shoot and scoot moves to pop out, fire and reverse. MAKE SURE THAT YOU REVERSE ON EXACTLY THE SAME LINE otherwise the tank will spend ages turning before moving backwards. Difficult in this scenario but you can use keyhole techniques.

Make the Germans come to you while you are hidden and you can win this scenario.

[Good books on Bagration]

Great , we are getting somewhere. I feel a little amazon Bagration splurge coming on....

Have read "When Titans Clash" and have just finished "Tank Rider" which was excellent.

Need a good book on Soviet armoured vehicles as well and can get the old Zaloga "Soviet Tanks and Combat Vehicles" - a bit pricey - a bit dated? Anything better come along since then? Was looking at Fleicher "Russian Tanks" as an alternative maybe.

Was considering Glantz's Colossus series especially "Colossus Reborn". Any good?

thanks

[Good books on Bagration]

Found Niepold but it is £50!

I have read the Glantz book as I was one of the team that published it. Tried very hard to get a better jacket and illustration but there was no money. One my first day, I was shown an earlier one in the series and pointed out that the illustraion caption was wrong and SU-85s do not have hand rails around the back only SU-76s do.

Have been looking at amazon this afternoon and found the following:

Soviet Blitzkrieg: The Battle for White Russia, 1944 (Hardcover) by Walter Scott Dunn

Stalingrad to Berlin: The German Defeat in the East by Earl F. Ziemke

Bagration 1944 - Steve Zaloga

Hitlers Greatest Defeat - Paul Adair

Any of these good?

Also is it worth getting Zalogas Soviet Tanks and Combat Vehicles - is it still up to date?

thanks and cheers

[Good books on Bagration]

Having read my way through a lot of books on Kursk I am now moving forward to 1944. Can anyone suggest good books to read. I do not mind grand strategy but like it tempered with descriptions of local units and battles.

Suggestions please.

[Differences between the Allies. A Russian Arnhem?]

I have started to look into the differences the Russians and the US/British experience and methods in 1944 when they were in similar positions.

For instance the breakout from the Normandy bridgehead, Operation Goodwood, etc and the start of Operation Bagration.

It struck me that the British halt in Holland without capturing the major bridges in front of them would have been handled differently had it been a Russian force in that position. A Russian general would have rushed a tank division forward to capture the bridges and then dig in to wait for the rest to come up. So that rather than a huge airborne operation you would have had a tank force grimly hanging on while the German pressure built and relief forces fought their way forward. Perhaps there is a scenario in this?

Anyone else looked at this sort of thing?

[Typical British Force Makeup]

Does the force from an Armoured Division look pretty much the same only a company of infantry for every company of tanks?

[Typical British Force Makeup]

Hi JonS

I have been looking for your thread for ages and been unable to find it. However I did find a link in a previous thread that led me to it. As it was so hard, I have taken the liberty of posting it here again.

Excellent as far as it goes but how about the forces for Tunisia or Italy?

cheers

HOW TO ATTACK LIKE THE BRITISH

What follows is a very stereotyped, planned attack {1} by part of a British infantry division, using bog-standard formations, set sometime between June – October 1944. A similar attack profile could be conducted with the Canadians. After October the types of vehicles will change, and the ratio of Firefly to regular tanks moves from 1:3 to 2:2 {2} . Also, support vehicles such as Crocodiles and Wasps become more common.

Readers Health Warning: It should be noted that I haven’t tried this line-up as I tend not to play QBs. It is presented as a companion to JasonC’s pieces on “How To Attack Like The Americans”, and “… Like the Germans”

5000 Point Scenario (attacker gets 7500 Points), unrestricted force type.

Basic Force:

Inf Bn{3} w/MG plt (Reg) x1

25-pr. Spotter (Vet) x 6

5.5” Spotter (Reg) x 2

= 4215 Points

Armour Force (all Reg):

Churchills (9 x VII + 2 x VIII){4} = 1681 Points

OR Shermans (9 x V + 3 x VC){5} = 1557 Points

OR Cromwells (9 x CromVII + 3 x ShermVC + 2 x CromVIII){5} = 1760 Points

(Shermans and Cromwells work in troops of 4 vehicles; three of standard and one Firefly. Churchills in troops of three MkVII, plus a small troop of 2 MkVIII){6}

Attached Force:

4 x Wolverine (Reg){7} (SP AT Tp) = 408 Points

4 x 17-pr. + 4 x M5 Halftrack{8} (Reg) (Towed SP Tp) = 552 Points

6 x Universal Carriers{9} (Reg) (for bn. engr. pn. in half squads) = 204 Points

1 x Rifle Coy (Reg) (reinforcing coy) = 379 Points

13 x Kangaroos{10} (Reg) (enough to mount one coy) = 663 Points

4 x Sharpshooters (Vet) (one per coy){11} = 88 Points

2 x 25-pr. Spotter (Vet) = 442 Points

1 x 4.2” Mortar Spotter (Vet) = 111 Points

1 x 3” Mortar Spotter (Vet) = 141 Points

Take the Basic Force, one of the Armour Force choices, and as many of the Attached Force options as can be afforded and will suit your needs{12}. You will still have some points left over, so use those at your discretion.

So, for example, you could buy the following:

Basic + Churchills + Wolverines + Kangaroos + Carriers + Sharpshooters = 7317 Points, leaving 183 ‘spare’ for a few more Sharpshooters, PIATs, etc{13}, or to upgrade the quality of some part of your force.

The Bn comes with four rifle companies, and the basic attack formation is ‘two up’, with two companies in reserve. Each of the leading companies also goes ‘two up’, with one platoon in reserve. Each platoon again goes ‘two up’, with one section in reserve. Each of the lead companies gets one of the troops of tanks in support. The other support elements are held in reserve or cover the flanks as required. Instead of having two companies in reserve, one could be used to conduct a feint, or attack a minor objective.

Prior to the attack carefully choose an axis of advance that you will be attacking along. The attack will be conducted with the two attack companies side by side, on a frontage of approx 120-160m (30-40m per leading platoon). The artillery will flatten this attack route ahead of the infantry with a rolling barrage.

Pick a line roughly 2-300m ahead of your where your lead platoons are set up along the Start Line. On Turn 1 target all six 25-pr. Spotters along this line, at a spacing of approx 30-40m, to give an artillery-frontage of 150-200m. Don’t go too wide, or there will be ‘gaps’ between the beaten zones of adjacent spotters. Once the rounds start to fall, advance the infantry up behind the barrage{14}. When they start getting too close, jump the line forward approx 100m and repeat. With the dispersion of the falling rounds you should get complete coverage at each line of a zone 200m broad by 100m deep, and as the barrage advances this coverage will be extended over the entire area of the attack corridor.

As an alternative to stepping forward by 100m every 3 minutes or so, you could sneak the fire forward a little bit every turn, to avoid the long delay involved in retargeting.

This barrage probably won’t destroy too much, but it should cause sufficient suppression to allow the infantry to continue moving forward, as long as they stay fairly close behind the barrage. It is important to keep the barrage jumping forward, and not dwelling too long on any line. Each of the Spotters has enough rounds for about 10 minutes of fire, and you need to have the infantry on the objective within that time limit. The total depth of the assault covered by the barrage will be on the order of 3-500m, which is another factor to consider when planning your attack.

The other indirect spotters (the battalion 3” Spotter and the two 5.5” Spotters, and any others you bought) can be used to engage any stubborn positions, to smoke the flanks of the corridor, or to engage targets off to the flanks. As a enhancement, you can change the two flank spotters of the barrage to smoke for the turn before they step forward so that the infantry advance between two lines of smoke (sort-of).

During the advance the tanks will be supporting it with direct fire{15}, and the engineers can be used to clear any minefields that appear.

Once the objective is taken, get the reserve companies up to secure and defend it supported by the battalion 6-pr. AT guns, along with any other stray elements. What were the lead companies can go back into reserve, and/or secure the flanks of the assault corridor.

This type of attack telegraphs your intentions to the German player fairly early, but as long as you keep moving forward and stay in a fairly tight fist you ‘should’ be ok. A particular concern is that all your units are moving along a single corridor, and are therefore vulnerable to German off-board artillery. Also, units on the flanks are largely ignored, so you may get a lot of flanking fire. Smoke along the edges of the assault corridor may help alleviate both problems.

For ‘assault’ scenarios you will have 8750 points available. Use these extra points to buy another 6 x 25-pr. Spotters (Vet) (to give 12 total) as part of the Basic Force. Use the extra spotters to form a parallel barrage line behind the first, to give a total beaten zone of 200m x 200m. When the infantry approaches the first barrage line, leapfrog it over the second, and so on. This extra line will give a much more effective barrage.

There will be less leftover points once the Armour Force has been purchased, and these can be used on items from the Attached Force list, and/or more engineer platoons, and/or another troop of armour, or possibly a pair of engineers tanks – Crocodiles or A.Vs.R.E.

2000 Point Scenario (attacker gets 3000 Points), unrestricted force type.

Basic Force:

In Coy (Reg) x2

3-in. mortar Spotter (Reg) x 1

6-pr. (Reg) x 2

Vickers MMG (Reg) x2

Universal Carriers (for Vickers and 6-pr.) (Reg) x4

Pioneer Pn (Reg) x1

25-pr. Spotter (Vet) x 4

= 2163 Points

Armour Force (all Reg):

Churchills (3 x VII + 1 x VIII) = 608 Points

OR Shermans (3 x V + 1 x VC) = 519 Points

OR Cromwells (3 x CromVII + 1 x ShermVC) = 510 Points

Attached Force:

2 x 6-pr. + 2 x Universal Carrier(Reg) (Towed SP Section) = 174 Points

1 x Rifle Pn (Reg) (reinforcing pn) = 127 Points

4 x M5 Halftracks (Reg) (enough to mount one pn) = 168 Points

2 x Sharpshooters (Vet) (one per coy) = 44 Points

Same mix and match as before. Same basic tactics, except on a narrower front, with one company up, and one in reserve.

For smaller battles, and you will have to forgo the barrage, as there simply won’t be enough spotters to make it worthwhile. Keep the 3-in. Spotter, and 2 x 25-pr. Spotters. Try to keep to the format of the Basic Force, centred on infantry with artillery and Armour Force support, fleshed out with Attachments.

For tactics, keep half to a-third of your force as reserve, and use what artillery you have in concentrations on identified targets.

Regards

JonS

Edit: Not surprisingly, John Salt took me to task on this , so I've included his comments:

{1} A nice Anglo-Canadian variation might be a night infiltration attack, either with armour (as per Ken Tout’s adventures on “Fly-by-Night”), or infantry alone (such as the KSLI’s night infiltration during “Bluecoat”). Unfortunately, CM:BO handles night combat poorly. I assume that we are dealing only with the formal attack or advance in contact here, hence the lack of recce vehicles; otherwise, there should be all sorts of light armour swanning around – and, as we’ll see, you can always use more carriers.

{2} Comet, obviously, has no 17-pounder or CS tanks mixed in.

{3} The CM:BO British infantry battalion as given is deficient in carriers, having only 10. 6 are needed to two the 6-pounders; 6 are needed for the mortar platoon, although these can be neglected as the 3-inch mortars are “off-table”; and the carrier platoon is authorised 13 of the things. The carrier platoon should have some 2-in mortars and PIATs of its own, as well, say 1 each per section of 3 carriers.

{4} This is an excessive proportion of CS tanks. There should only be 2 at SHQ, so 2 per 17 or so gun tanks. I don’t know what proportions of Mk VI to Mk VII are reasonable, but all VIIs is evidently a bit luxurious. I find it handy to mix VIs and VIIs to meet a particular pojnts value. An amusing game can be had trying to attack the AI with a “pure” Churchill squadron; at regular quality, 6 Mk VIIs, 8 Mk VIs and 2 Mk VIIIs make a full-strength squadron on almnost exactly 2250 points, which is what you get for a 1500 attack.

{5} If you have the points, you might buy all 4 sabre troops of a squadron, and the guns tanks from SHQ, which seem to be missing.

{6} Yes and no. Fireflies are normally mixed into the troops, but some regiments ran a centralised Firefly troop. CS tanks were nominally on the strength of SHQ, although “Villers Bocage Through the Lens” shows that the Sharpshooters dished out CS tanks to sabre troops. Cromwells from squadrons of an armoured division’s armoured recce regiment should not have Firleflies (though I believe they should have Challenger when it appears); Shermans representing DD squadrons should not have Fireflies either.

{7} For shame! Make them higher quality just for being Gunners!

{8} Could also use a truck representing the Morris 30cwt.

{9} I am not aware of sappers being transported in carriers as a regular thing. Trucks would seem more likely to me.

{10} The other APC that one might see is the M5 halftrack, used by the motor battalion of an armoured division or “swinger” armoured brigade. Each company of a motor bn at full strength should have three rifle platoons each in 4 M5s, a scout platoon with 11 carriers, and Coy HQ with 2 carriers and 3 scout cars. They should not appear in the same battle as Churchills, which were found only in the independent tank brigades.

{11} Assuming for a moment that these represent snipers who’ve done the course and got the ghillie jacket, AIUI British sniper doctrine has always stressed operating in pairs. This is certainly the case now, and I believe it has remained unchanged for a very long time. It is also currently the case that snipers are authorised by the Bn CO, up to 8 pairs. They would probably not be affiliated to any particular company while sniping. If these do not represent proper “ghillie-jacketed” snipers, I don’t know what they represent, as I doubt anyone else could get hold of a scope on their G1098.

{12} This seems to me to be a good scheme that reflects the way British commanders handle “atts and dets”. You might also have a “funnies” add-on, including AVsRE and Crocs; unfortunately Crocodiles are so expensive that one is unlikely to see the advised minimum of a half-squadron, say 6 vehicles.

{13} I always buy PIATs and 2-in mortars as “makeweights” with left-over points. This strikes me as reasonable because quite o few of these weapons were authorised for people like the admin, AA, ATk and carrier platoons who might well be induced to “lend” them to the rifle companies.

{14} CM:BO’s artillery mechanisms don’t really let you do barrages terribly well. If you have a nice long battle and a big map, though, you might be able to advance down one flank and then turn through a right angle to attack across the table. I’ve done it a couple of times against the AI. The beaten zones then give a more barrage-like feel, and, if you have to fight to clear your start line, well, sometimes people did.

{15} Tanks might be in intimate support actually mixed in with or leading the infantry, or, especially if they’re not “I” tanks, jockeying along crest lines and shooting HE from up to 2000 yards away – as if ever see a 2000-yard LOS in CM:BO.

And similar comments for the smaller battles.

Lots of 25 pounder FOs, perhaps a squadron of tanks (15) for every infantry battalion, or a troop (4) of tanks for every infantry company? The tanks would be Sherman III or V, with every fourth one a Firefly (or 2 out of 4 being Fireflies late in the war).

After Normandy, throw in some WASP flamethrowers liberally.

[Typical British Force Makeup]

I was thinking along the lines of an infantry divsion force advancing down a road in Tunisia to attack German field defences or meeting German counter attack forces. Likewise an armoured division on the same mission.

Once I know a tyical force makeup, I will be able to see how it fits in with the TOE.

Not fixed on the points but 3000 seems a good round figure but it could change if need be.

thank you.

[Typical German Force Makeup]

It would be a big help if I could get the typical German forces to match our Soviet ones in the Typical Russian Force thread. 3000 points with Infantry, PzGr and Panzer parent divisions for 1942 and 1943 and typical line units rather than SS. Thank you.

I have got from other threads '44 Panzer 5000, 3000, 2000 and '44 infantry 3000 and 2000 point forces. Also Arm Recce force and PzGr (Mech) and (Armoured) 1500 point forces

JasonC

Operation Uranus continues but I realised after playing 22nd Pz vs 5 TA that it must be an old version and have now downloaded the new one which looks winnable. Have posted results of OLD version on TPG.

cheers