Wartgamer
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Posts posted by Wartgamer
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To use hyperbole as fact is CW-Baloney. Served with a pinch of 'Salt' does not make it any more palatable.
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Most 'smoke' is noxious in enclosed spaces like buildings. And Shermans fired WP more than most other obscurants.
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Actually the point is that it was tested in a way it was not used. And I doubt the accuracy anyway.
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Yeah I guess a M16 could be put in a vise attached to a steel table also. Maybe some wheels with chocks?
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Ive fired a M16 at full auto at 20m, 50m and 100m. I really do not care what 'John Salt' extrapolates.
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A (single?) Panther on the defense is a single tank. It can readily be smoked/bombed/out-manuvered.
The correct use of armor is in groups and utilize thier mobility.
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I would mark up the overall poor performance to crappy leadership at command level and facing TAC-Air and Superior Artillery than any 'Green' factor.
Its hard to get past 'green' when you are bled Red from the get-go.
Panthers/PanzerIVs are not uber-tanks and any time they are used 'Tiger-Style' (outnumbered by many weapons), they will lose.
By mid-44, the whole uber-tank (armor across front/sides defeating AP) is a thing of the past. Most guns can hole most tanks in the sides. Only combined arms/use of smoke/concentration of force can offset an enemy. Driving a Brigade into the middle of a division is just bad command.
BTW:
Panzer Brigade 101,102,103 and 104 were all sent to the eastern front with 36 Panthers each in AUG 44.
For a short period, a sizable number of Panthers fielded were being sent to these PB. The most telling stat is that more Panthers are lost in September 44 than in July and August (All fronts). The Germans also lose 750 some Panzer IV during September 44. The German use of armor is suspect during Fall44. How much is because of Panzer Brigadom is debatable.
In another thread it was explored that the fielding of Panthers showed that the Germans actually had a buildup of Panthers since it was taking too long to get the Ist Panzer battalions trained on them. perhaps the Germans felt this was a way to get them out of depots.
A better solution may have been to just convert certain Panzer Divisions to all Panthers. The thought being that a Panzer Division that had one Battalion already trained on Panthers could expand its two battalions 'on-the-fly'. Its Panzer IV guys having traing plus experience making the jump easier than newly trained tankers from a school. The 'Panther' division could then be a major attack and counter attcking force.
Other Panzer Divisions could get Panzer IVs with a mix of Jagdpanzer/StuG making up the other Battalions. In effect, they become Super-Panzer-Grenadier divisions. They are really defensive in nature against heavy armored attacks but could still play a back seat counter-attack role or exploitation role.
[ May 05, 2005, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]
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Indeed. Nothing worse than CW baloney covered up with lots of CW malarkey-sauce.
Same goes for STEN guns firing full auto and hitting targets at 300 meters. Thats SAW capability.
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Actually the Panzer Brigades started with Hitler's suggestion about having small mobile fast groups to counter attack an destroy enemy armored attacks. They were supposed to be 'antitank' units and counter attacking units at that. He brought this up right before Bagration.
Perhaps that is why they were 'based' around the 75MML70 gun (Panther and JagdpanzerIVL). Tigers are too slow and other 88s (Jagdpanther) not available. The 'Panther' gun would give the units 'homogenous' ammunition/gunners and AT capability.
On the eastern front, attacking armored units would have greatly outnumbered them. They would have had some quick initial effect but in reality, given the dropouts from battle/breakdown, they would not have 'staying-power'. Just as the Panther 'brigades' at Kursk melted away, I suppose too would the 1944 Panzer Brigades. Any use of tanks like the Panther or the Tiger required centralized recovery/repair/parts/etc.
Supposedly there were two types of Panzer Brigades:
http://thingy.apana.org.au/~luddite/wargames/Type2PzBrig.html
http://www.fireandfury.com/extra/downloads/pzbrig1944.pdf#search='Panzer%20Brigades'
101st Panzer BrigadeOrdered formed on 11/7/1944, actually formed on 15/8/1944.
The 2101st Panzer Battalion was formed from the 1st PanzerJaeger Training Battalion. Rate them as Green, Morale 8 as they were most likely traing on assault guns and not tanks. Though the PanzerJaeger company can be trained.
The 2101st Panzer Grenadier Battalion was formed in Wehrkries III. Trained, morale 8.
In August it was teamed with the SS Panzer Brigade Gross as a divisional sized kampgruppe under General Von Strachwitz. Here it took part in the first offensive to restablish contact with Army Group North which had just been encircled for the first time.
From September the various elements of Gruppe Strachwitz were used to cover the retreat of Army Group North into the Courland Sector.
In October 44 the brigade was absorbed by the rebuilding 20th Panzer Division, in East Prussia. With the brigade headquarters becoming the staff 21st Panzer Regiment. While the Panzer Battalion became the I/21st Panzer Regiment.
The Panzer Grenadier battalion is described as becoming a PanzerJagd-kommando battalion within the 20th Panzer. Though since the division was being rebuilt at the time, it would be unlikely that this was an extra battalion.
102nd Panzer Brigade
Ordered formed on 20/7/1944, actually formed on 15/8/1944.
The 2102nd Panzer Battalion was formed from the 5th Reserve Panzer Abiltung in Denmark. Rate them all as trained, morale 8.
The 2102nd Panzer Grenadier Battalion was formed in Wehrkries XI. Trained, morale 8.
November 44 absorbed by the 7th Panzer Division
103rd Panzer Brigade
Ordered formed on 26/7/1944, actually formed on 15/8/1944.
The 2103rd Panzer Battalion was formed from the Panzer Abiltung Norwegen. Rate them all as regular, morale 8.
The 2103rd Panzer Grenadier Battalion was formed in Wehrkries XIII. Trained, morale 8.
November 44 absorbed by the 5th Panzer Division. The headquarters of the 103rd brigade was used to command a Panzer Kampgruppe in early 45.
104th Panzer Brigade
Ordered formed on 18/7/1944.
The 2104th Panzer Battalion was formed in Wehrkries XI. Trained, morale 8.
The 2104th Panzer Grenadier Battalion was formed in Wehrkries XI. Trained, morale 8.
November 44 absorbed by the 20th Panzer Division
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Blue, what weapons experience (if any) do you have? Even at a 25 meter range, it would not be common with semiauto.
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Interesting that the Panzer Brigades were given Panthers. Many of the remnants were absorbed into PD after being destroyed btw. They were also used on the eastern front and accounted for many of the panthers lost during the summer.
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The screen is effective because it is in a valley of sorts (trapped). It also appears to be a favorable wind that is blowing across the front line. It would be interesting to see video of a 2 inch laying smoke. How long it takes to develop/etc.According to the caption, the troops in the foreground are 2" mortar crews, which just layed the screen for the infantry deployed on the slope. That appears to be an effective screen. Far better than anything I could have created in CM.The 2 inch smoke round was 2 pounds? What point is being made? That smoke in general is under modeled or that another CW weapon has additional uber-properties?
The US 60mm may not have had a smoke round till late in the war or not at all (till Korea). The US troops would have to rely on WP hand/rifle grenades or more than likely 81mm WP.
[ May 04, 2005, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]
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No, you do not understand. each BREN bullet will pass through the same hole +/-0.001". Happened all the time. So the CW was forced to issue extra caffienated tea so that the mighty BREN gunners would get the jitters and therefore introduce some dispersion. It was called BREN-BREW.
Everyone knows that.
The STEN was credited with 408 confirmed downed Luftwaffe bombers also.
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Learn spelling.
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Recent research has uncovered that the Vickers was a super-heavy indirect firing uber-machinegun. The BREN was a super mobile medium machinegun of mythical proportions. And the best light machinegun also too (Of course).
But its now apparent that the STEN was actually a SAW and a light machinegun and a SAW and a submachinegun in addition also too.
This, and the fact that CW troops ran around with WWI helmutts, shows the world how great they were.
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How much does it cost to treat you like Jersey scum? I am willing to pay.Originally posted by Akula2:Im unacostomed to being spoken to that way unless I'm being compensated monetarily.
Are you willing to pay me to be your friend ... you ****ing condescending windbag?!
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I think the 57mm may also have been somewhat rare during this time. This website says it was just starting to be delivered around Kursk.
The soviets did manage to produce SU 85 and SU152 in roughly equal amounts and in numbers comparable to the number of Tiger/Panthers showing up.
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The Panzer Brigades were not all green men. They were built around remnants of other divisions and would surely have some experienced people amongst the green loaders and other 17-18 year olds.
I can't say I approve of the concept if there were PD and PGD that could have used the weapons instead. The Soviets had figured out how to do things by late 43. Unbelievable that the Germans would futz around like they did.
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Getting back to what the Soviets did in Fall43 to thier armored formations...
So the SU85 and the SU152 were the cat killers during this time. A game like CM with its microscopic view does not always appreciate the bigger picture.After Kursk, the Soviets made one more major refinement to their order of battle; although no more overarching changes were necessary as in 1941-1942, the tank and mechanized forces received their final organzation at the end of 1943. As mentioned above, the Soviets then sought to improve their existing formations rather than create new ones, primarily through the use of specialist units and improved equipment. By August 1943, the tank corps structure was allotted two regiments of self-propelled guns, to add to its already not inconsiderable organic firepower.53 The 1944 tank brigade included 65 of the capable T-34 medium tanks, increasing the mobility and combat power of these units relative to the smaller, mixed tank brigade of 1941-43.54August 1943
ADD:
Heavy SU Regiment (SU-152s)
SU Regiment (SU-85s)
REMOVE:
(Separate) Antitank Battalion - to be replaced by the SU Regiment
Antitank Regiment - to be replaced by the SU Regiment
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On the eastern front, the Panther does not assume its parity with the Panzer IV till summer 44 (even thoughproduction of each vehcile has been roughly the same since fall43).
May 31 44 shows that the number of PanzerIV is equal to the number of Panther+Tiger (actually greater than 50% operationally). Replacements by June31 are only 123 Panzer IV but 265 Panther and 32 Tiger. This would appear to be the actual start of Panzer Divisions meeting the 1944 criteria. June and July show many 'First' battalions of Panzer Regts arriving with new panthers. Unfortunately, July, August and September are the worst months for Panther losses! They losses are meeting or exceeding production. From Sept44 to early45, Panther and Panzer IV on the eastern front are about equal (600-700). Tigers still are in the 200-300 range.
The Soviets are fielding T34/85 and JS2 tanks as well as better SU tank killers. They are maintaining better production and now fielding better tanks.
The Germans have dragged thier feet and now need to rely on LATW (which are becoming available in greater numbers) and improved jagdpanzer (Hetzer/jagdpanzerIV). StuG vehicles are starting to become second line AT weapons.
The Soviet and US 'policy' of sticking with a MBT design and improving it seems to be winning out over the German attempt to change horses in mid-stream.
[ May 03, 2005, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]
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German tank strength Kursk
PzII 108
PzIIIkz 121
PzIIIlg 532
PzIII75 169
PzIV
kz 60
PzIV
lg 756
PzV
Panther 200
PzVI
Tiger 270
PzBef
Cmd 126
Total 2,342
* Actually Pz38t (some PII are actually Pz38t)
** Plus 13 Flammpanzer
*** Plus 25 T-34
**** Plus 14 Flammpanzer
MINE AND COUNTERMINE OPERATIONS
IN THE
BATTLE OF KURSK
FINAL REPORT
A similar pattern was evident in military equipment. In 1943 the Soviets were outproducing the Germans in most categories of military equipment. In addition, they were receiving considerable quantities of equipment from Great Britain and the U. S. The table below shows the numbers of tanks and self-propelled artillery pieces the Red Army and the German Army received per quarter in 1943, including those the Soviets received through lend-lease.
Military Equipment Received in 1943
Type of Equipment
Soviet
(Average per Quarter)
German
(Second Quarter 1943)
Heavy Tanks
225
156
Medium Tanks
4,100
1,315
Light Tanks
1,400
100
Self-Propelled Guns
1,100
1,325
TOTAL
6,825
2,896
[ May 03, 2005, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]
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Yes. He was just counting turreted German AFV but counting that as total. IOW, he was wrong. I forget the author but I believe you were also in that old thread contributing.
Anyway, An interesting stat would be ratio of turreted to turreted AFV from Kursk onward in 43.
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http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/ael/pubs/300-007/B-GL-371/006/FP-001/B-GL-371-006-FP-001.pdf
This is probably the link he wanted to post. It is also, like his inane blast remark, not that relevant to the discussion on mortars.
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That old thread was not counting anything but German turreted afv.
Light Mortars
in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps
Posted
A test to find out a projectile is dangerous beyond its usable range? OMIGOSH! Lets break out the Noble prizes!