Wartgamer
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Posts posted by Wartgamer
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I disagree entirely. Direct hits on most ATG that are dug in is very dificult and the real target is the vulnerable crew.One place all the flat trajectory HE is undermodeled though is hitting guns "on the fly", especially when slopes are involved. Direct hits on guns weren't all that much harder to achieve than direct hits on vehicles. The game instead requires HE to hit at the foot of the gun, a narrower target in the vertical dimension - and then has only modest effects on gun crews. If you hit a 2 pdr's gun shield with a 50mm tank shell, directly, you'd take it out for sure. -
Depends on the grenade also. Japanese grenades were best used for suicide. German stick grenades were not particulary great either (without a frag band). US grenades were particularly dangerous (old pineapple type). They could chunk out large frags that would fly way beyond any throwers capability.
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Actually artillery striking the buildings on either side would rain down fragments into that shallow position.
There may be a building very close by to the left that they could crawl to. I do not think they are in the very middle of a road.
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I challenged Dorosh and he backed down. I now challenge Jason to be his 'AI'.
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Jason's Infantry Division theory seems to further fortify that Kursk was anti-blitzkrieg warfare.
Not sure if he is just throwing it in to further his 'German's didn't mobilize in time' previous theories.
One could just total up the German 'dumb' losses (Stalingrad and Afrika) and there would have been more manpower available.
The Germans could have realized as early as July 41 that they were being bled. They more than likely saw the losses early in Russia as falling in line with previous successes that would end soon.
But the Germans lost 54K KIA/MIA during July 41. They also had 'non-recoverable' WIA who would never fight again. Aug-Sep-Oct 41 showed similar bleeding but with a slight downward trend. Nov 41 should have been a decision month. They 'only' had 33K KIA/MIA this month. But Barbarossa had cost them about 25 divisions worth of manpower already. They still had the winter losses coming.
1942 saw a similar long bleed. More than likely the Germans had a heck of a time just getting replacement pools filled. 1942 capped with the debacle at Stalingrad (where panzer troops were misused by the way).
Could the Germans have really had 25 ID 'extra' by July 43? Given the way they screwed up till then? It would seem that they would have had to have raised them before Barbarossa and there was no real reason to do so. It would have required they put the war with the Soviets off for awhile also.
[ June 16, 2005, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]
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German Plans
Manstein pressed for a new offensive based on the same successful lines he had just pursued at Kharkov, when he cut off an overextended Soviet offensive. He suggested tricking the Soviets into attacking in the south against the desperately re-forming 6th Army, leading them into the Donets Basin in the eastern Ukraine. He would then turn south from Kharkov on the eastern side of the Donets River towards Rostov and trap the entire southern wing of the Red Army against the Sea of Azov.
OKW did not approve the plan, and instead turned their attention to the obvious bulge in the lines between Orel and Kharkov. There were three complete armies in and around the salient, and pinching it off would trap almost a fifth of the Red Army"s manpower. It would also result in a much straighter and shorter line, and capture the strategically useful railway town of Kursk located on the main north-south railway line running from Rostov to Moscow.
In March the plans were settled. Walther Model"s 9th Army would attack south from Orel while Hoth"s 4th Panzer Army and Army Detachment Kempf under the overall command of Manstein would attack north from Kharkov. They were to meet near Kursk, but if the offensive went well they were allowed to continue forward on their own initiative, with a general plan to create a new line on the Don River far to the east.
Unlike recent efforts, Hitler gave the General Staff considerable control over the planning of the battle. Over the next few weeks they continued to increase the scope of the forces attached to the front, stripping the entire German line of practically anything remotely useful in the upcoming battle. The battle was first set for May 4, but then delayed until June 12, and finally July 4 in order to allow more time for new weapons to arrive from Germany, especially the new Panther tanks.
It is worth discussing this plan in terms of the traditional, and successful, blitzkrieg tactic used up to this point. Blitzkrieg depended on massing all available troops at a single point on the enemy line, breaking through, and then running as fast as possible to cut off the front line troops from supply and information. Direct combat was to be avoided at all costs, there is no point in attacking a strongpoint if the same ends can be had by instead attacking the trucks supplying them. The best place for Blitzkrieg was the least expected, which is why they had attacked through the Ardennes in 1940, and towards Stalingrad in 1942.
OKW"s Operation Citadel was the antithesis of this concept. The point of attack was painfully obvious to anyone with a map, and reflected World War I thinking more than the Blitzkrieg. A number of German commanders questioned the idea, notably Heinz Guderian who asked Hitler Was it really necessary to attack Kursk, and indeed in the east that year at all? Do you think anyone even knows where Kursk is?. Perhaps more surprisingly Hitler replied I know. The thought of it turns my stomach.
Simply put, it was an uninspired plan.
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Manstein wanted to use a defensive/manuver approach to destroy the Soviets after they attacked.
Guderian is oft quoted as wanting no German offensive and wanted to compleat the German armor evolution.
Zeitsler (sp?) wanted a hootenany big blowout.
Hitler was a like a gambler on tilt because he went for the blow out. Stalin played it safe and listened to his generals.
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Hitler wanted to keep as much of Russia as he could. He also wanted the Kursk attack by the way. But he kept delaying the attack.
Surprisingly, Stalin also wanted an attack pre-Kursk. His Generals sold him on the defense for Kursk. Stalin said he would wait but not for long.
Perhaps Hitler should have delayed the attack even further. This is certainly what some of his Generals wanted (some did not want an attack at all). If Hitler did wait, he may have got the Soviets to attack. This could have led to a defensive victory (The Germans being at a zenith in mobile power) and a chance to follow up with a counter-attack on the Soviets outside thier defensive belts.
Kursk in many ways is anti-Bltzkrieg.
[ June 15, 2005, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]
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Yes its interesting. I would pay attention to the data.Originally posted by Barkhorn1x:Wartgamer:
That link has the same Prokorvoka BS that the article I quoted talks about - but they do go on to say that the description of the battle losses is totally contradicted by the data in their tables.
Barkhorn.
The Germans lost too many tanks in the first few days. At an unacceptable 'exchange' rate to soviet tanks lost (mind you many german tanks were lost to minefields, ATG, etc). The Germans could not afford to lose at a 2:1 ratio ever.
Later in the battle, it was the Soviets chance to get bled. But they could afford it.
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So if people believe a myth, its a real myth? If I choose to not believe a myth, is it a false myth?
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I believe the Germans fired off something like 2 million 105mm and 150mm arty rounds during Poland alone. I would guess that they also did up a likewise amount during France. It just does not seem correct that they could have fired off that many rounds in one opening barrage.
The Germans did move many units into the battle area including FlaK units. Theres a spreadsheet around somewhere.
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The story of Kursk really needed data from both sides. It was probably not till after the Soviet Union collapsed that real data could be weighed against what was 'known' up till then.
I wonder about reports of the German barrage being bigger than the Polish and French campaigns combined..
Ten minutes before the Offensive was to begin and the German artillery barrage was to open up, the Soviets launched their own bombardment with 600 guns, mortars and Katyusha rocket launchers belong to Central Front which lasted for thirty minutes. The German response was slow at first but by 4.45am had grown in intensity. In fact the weight of shells fired during this bombardment was heavier than that fired during the whole of the Polish and French campaigns. A second Russian battery opened up but was ineffectual in disrupting German assembly areas and after the war Zhukov, analyzing the battle admitted that both fronts had opened up too early as German armor and infantry were still under cover. However some of General Model's troops were caught in the open and could not start their attack until 90 minutes after their scheduled start time. The Großdeutschland division had made the best progress advancing towards its objective of Oboyan forcing the Russian 3rd Mechanized Corps back to the River Pena. -
I think the Soviets played the armor development and deployment game best of anyone in WWII. They did it under tremendous pressure also.
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I CHALLENGE THE LITTLE SEAMSTRESS!!!!
If I win, he has to sew himself a little bo beep dress and wear it and post a picture on his canadian website under the title 'Canadian Comfort-Girl'.
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Well Handled. And I believe that people are claiming that I am many people.
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Its apparent to me that Dorosh has his own rules to post by. Others have the forum rules. I know for a fact he even used the abusive term 'Fu*k you' on occasion. I have never used such vulgar language.
http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=010449#000014
Just do a search under member 4604 and sh*t and theres 4 such instances.
Again we see the untruthfullness. You DID edit it out and therefore you had SOME reason for it not to be here. If nothing else, its a funny picture. I do not expect you to be truthfull and find you to be contemptible. I will not be drawn down to use your gutter vulgarities either.As for my photo - if I post it on the front page of my website, what makes you think I'd be embarrassed to see it here?[ June 13, 2005, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]
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You're a moron. </font>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ExplodingMonkey:
blitz·krieg
n.
A swift, sudden military offensive, usually by combined air and mobile land forces.
[German : Blitz, lightning (from Middle High German blitze, from bliczen, to flash, from Old High German blekkazzen) + Krieg, war (from Middle High German kriec, from Old High German krēg, stubbornness).]
This is a silly and pointless thread. Here, if pointless discussions float your boat, try this one:
Did you know colors don't really exist? They are just a condition of what our eyes perceive. Discuss.
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Dorosh if thats you admit it and move on.
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Thats such a sad sack of nothing on the left. Its like a poster boy for masturbation.
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The guy on the left did look like a bed-wetter.
Evidently, that was Dorosh's sad image and he was embarressed. He looks like some poser in that uniform and helmet. He has since edited that pic out of his website.
[ June 11, 2005, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]
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Edit: Dorosh substituted out a pic from his website
[ June 11, 2005, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]
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But what would he suck if another man was drunk? Thats what I want to know.
HE Effectiveness
in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps
Posted
Not really. The US pineapple grenade would blow the top and bottom off in large chunks. Its really a defensive grenade.
http://www.rt66.com/~Korteng/SmallArms/grenades.htm