Wartgamer
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Posts posted by Wartgamer
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A neat website that calcs frags from different data.
http://www.vy75.dial.pipex.com/toe.htm
This Kursk website claims that Panzer and Panzergrenadier divisions had 120mm but infantry divisions did not.
http://orbat.com/site/sturmvogel/mg.html
The Germans also had independant MG and Mortar units. 120mm were found in some of these.
schw. Granatwerfer-Batallion 18
10 May 43 raised at the Wandern Training Grounds, WK III, from elements of Gran.-Werfer-Btl. Afrika 1 and Glossner with three companies of 12cm mortars
4 Jul 43 XXXXVI Panzer Corps, 9th Army, Army Group Center
2 Jun 44 absorbed into 1st Ski-Jäger Division
SE: Jun I 43, 1x 1-8 Mtr II 18
[ March 16, 2005, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]
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The Germans made about 4800 75mm IGs and 1600 150mm IG in 1944.
The number of 120mm manufactured sort of lends itself to approximately a battalion level weapon. I do not think anyone has shown it was a Regt weapon.
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A Bridge Do Far?Originally posted by dalem:As far as the U.S. company 1:1 aspects WartyFred76, what other questions do you have? What have we left out do far?
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Who we? You are really speaking for anyone but yourself? And dalem, tom is the gee whiz guy here. Get another shtick.
But I digress.
The interesting part, at least to me, is that the actual 1:1 modeling of the whole company can be achieved if the non-line elements are modeled as 'activated units'. They are on map and will only get 'activated' under certain circumstances. The most obvious is the CP being threatened. So players can't abuse them during a scenario unless he is getting stomped.
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CW people are more like graffitti 'artists' than any Mafia.
I am currently researching communications. Did the CW really produce its own commo eqpt?
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There are so many reports of the 120mm being used in Normandy that it must mean that it was, of course, in some regt or below grouping. I have not read of it being in very large groupings like I imagine the Soviets probably used.
Some readings indicate rarity of ammo but that just mean they had more targets than rounds.
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I actually wanted to discuss the US Infantry aspect of this, but the CW pollution, like it is in many threads, feels free to dump, drool, titter and be prissy about anything and everything it can.
The main point of the thread was will 1:1 be for company sized units. I thought the designer said as much. But its apparent that many people do not know how a real WWII company was fought, or how it defended, in WWII.
I really do not care about CW weapons that much. Just as they feel free to come in here and mock and dump, well maybe they should get it back.
Its not my fault they fought WWII on the cheap.
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http://www.stormpages.com/garyjkennedy/Weapons/Mortarsandguns/Mortars%20&%20Infantry%20Guns.htm
This above source states the Germans did not start supplying them to infantry battalions till 1944
Panzerfaust website...
12cm - Granatwerfer
After germany attacked russia in 1941, they encountered the large russian PM 38 12cm mortars. Not only were any captured weapons immediately used in german service under the designation 12cm Granatwerfer 378®, the germans were so impressed by this weapon that they immediately prepared to produce their own copies. This design was called 12cm Granatwerfer 42. The tube had a length of 186.5cm and the complete weapon weighed 285kg. It fired the Wurfgranate 42 that had a length of 72.1cm and weighed 15.8kg incl. 3.1kg of explosives. The warhead was usually fitted with the Abstandszünder 41 ("distance detonator") extender fuse. With a Vo of 283 the maximum range was slightly over 6km. The weapon proved a very successful design, total production (1943-1945) was 8,461 12cm Gr.W.42; it was comparably cheap and cost the germans 1,200.- RM apiece to produce. Of it's ammunition, the Wurfgranate 42, a total of 5,373,000 was built from 1943 - 1945.
Link from Panzerfaust website..
Heavy Company (3 Officers, 202 men)
Company HQ (1 Officer, 19 men)
Company Train (17 men)
Machine Gun Platoon (1 Officer, 54 men)
8 cm Mortar Platoon (66 men)
12 cm Mortar Platoon (1 Officer, 46 men)
Heavy Mortar Platoon - the Germans had encountered a new threat on the Eastern Front, the Red Army's 120 mm mortar. They were suitably impressed and copied the weapon for German use. It was effectively a light artillery piece, and required a notably high concentration of motor transport to move. The Platoon served four tubes, each with a massive range of almost 6000 m. Production never met demand, and in some units additional 8 cm mortars may have been used, or even Infantry guns as described earlier.
[ March 15, 2005, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]
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And the 2 in was at the corp level mortar brigades? Smashing good stuff.
Yes, the CW pollution level turbidity guage has gone off the scale yet again.
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So the 4.2 in was kept at the company level. Interesting. And the 3 in mortar at the battalion level. Crafty.
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Commonwealth Infantry Company's weapon platoon. Similar to the US Infantry Company's 1st LT led unit with 60mm mortars and 30 cal belt fed air cooled MGs.
The CW infinktry company is just 120 some guys isn't it?
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I have heard that the CW Infantry companies weapons platoons were invisible, but find it hard to believe that the company HQ could be invisible.
One good thing about invisible weapon's platoons is that you do not have to carry ammo for them.
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Since you like sharing websites so much, I'm surprised you haven't consulted a very comprehensive one run by a forum member that could provide exactly that information. </font>Originally posted by Dook:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wartgamer:
How many men were in a CW platoon? Is it 37? 3 ten man squads and a PIAT (2 man), a 2 in (2 man) and an officer, NCO, runner?
What about a CW company? 3 platoons? HQ 'section'? anything else?
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Keep it civil.
Were they 'sparse' in warm bodies?
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How many men were in a CW platoon? Is it 37? 3 ten man squads and a PIAT (2 man), a 2 in (2 man) and an officer, NCO, runner?
What about a CW company? 3 platoons? HQ 'section'? anything else?
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Ha! And then you have just stated the importance of wire communications, and the need for command posts.
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In a defensive posture, the creation of the company command post is vital to fighting the unit.
The unit is spread out, linked in with wire comm, mapped so that positions are known and defensive fires can be brought down/adjusted.
In many offensive actions, the Company commander (or his XO), leaves the location (so the command post does not go with them), and brings mobile communications, runner (s) and usually a non-com. But in CMX1, it does not matter as either side is modeled by the non-CP 'HQ' unit. Think of it as a 'fireteam' concept in the command realm.
The US probably excelled in offensive actions due to its excellent mobile communications. The SCR 300 allowed Company command, Platoon Command and even Battalion Command and supporting arms to communicate clearly. These FM sets were the envy of the civilized world. These were actually the 'Walkie-Talkie'.
The 'Handie-Talkie' is the self contained hand unit and is an AM unit. Its major contribution was squad leader to platoon command control.
Most nations had similar wire communications and would rely on them for most secure communications as much as possible. Messengers would be the last form of commo used. They would be more soldiers in teh line.
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I just enhjoy WWII websites and sharing them.Originally posted by DrD:Wartgamer, is that your site? It's a good resource.
Heres a new find for today. Very fun read. Very US Company Commander perspective.
http://www.tankbooks.com/interviews/arnold3.htm
Note how small the forward Company 'HQ' element is. Wheres the XO? The First Sgt? All the other non-cooks/buglers?In an attack position such as this, I always attacked with two platoons forward and one in support, and my position is always in between and slightly to the rear of the two attacking platoons, so I can keep abreast of what’s going on and if I need to commit my support platoon, I’ll know where to do it.In approaching Niederwampach, the two platoons split up a little bit, so the village in my immediate front had not been cleared. I entered this building with my command group. When I say command group, that was just myself, my communications sergeant, the radio operator and my messenger.
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Many wish they can dimly remember you I suspect. And, of course, you are putting words in his mouth. He said "I am reliably informed" which you seem content to twist into doubt. I guess we have to take your dim recollections as fact.I actually emailed Gary a couple of years ago, I was under the impression his bread and butter was CW stuff, but only dimly remember him. I also wonder what his own military experience has been. I think he is at least honest when he says "I don't know but someone told me once that...." Seems to me his communications with me were a search for better info than he already had.And, no thnks, I do not want to buy some cookies.
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The 50 cal seemed to be a jeep-mount addition that probably could be dismounted when disired. But it does not seem to be displacing the old water cooled weapons.Heavy Weapons Company Headquarters - this unit provided similar command and admin facilities as that of the Rifle Company, and added a .50 cal HMG mounted on its 3/4 ton Weapons Carrier.Machine Gun Platoon - each of the Machine Gun Platoons served four .30 cal Browning M1917 heavy machine guns. Each of the four squads was provided a Jeep and trailer, with a further Jeep at Platoon HQ. Two Bazookas were carried.
Mortar Platoon - the Mortar Platoon provided the Battalion with its real firepower. It served six 81 mm weapons, paired up into three Section, uniquely each commanded by its own 2nd Lieutenant with a 1st Lieutenant at Platoon HQ. Each Mortar Squad had its own Jeep and trailer, with a further Jeep at Platoon and two Bazookas. The mortar could fire up to 3000m, providing a long reach for the Battalion.
In terrain that would not allow jeeps, like fighting in Italy, Korea or forests, etc. The troops probably retained the 30 cals.
Defense of Battalion CPs alos calls for jeep mounted 50's to be dismounted. They seem to be a AA defense (rat patrol style) under most other circumstances.
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http://www.stormpages.com/garyjkennedy/UnitedStates/united_states_infantry_battalion.htm
The Rifle Company - the ultimate staying power of the Battalion was provided by its three Rifle Companies, the foundation of which was the Rifle Squad of twelve men.
The Squad was commanded by a Staff Sergeant, with a Sergeant as his assistant. They commanded an assault group of seven men, two of whom were designated as scouts, and an Automatic Rifle group of rifleman, assistant and ammunition bearer. On paper, the auto-rifleman carried the Squad's single Browning Automatic Rifle, and every other man an M1 Rifle. The BAR was a well liked but limited weapon. It could not be truly described as a light machine gun in the same way as a Bren or German MG34/42. Instead, it was what is was called; a rifle capable of firing short bursts of automatic fire from its 20 round magazine. The barrel could not be changed, and so prolonged use was not advisable. It had been designed for use back in the First World War, hence its designation M1918, and no replacement had been sought. That was because the US Army placed its emphasis not on a small number of light machine guns, but on a large number of semi-automatic rifles. The M1 Rifle, the Garand, was the weapon chosen to employ this doctrine. Each man could fire his eight round magazine in seconds, without pausing to operate the manual bolt action required by other rifles. This gave the US soldier an undoubted advantage that was the envy of every ally and adversary. The British No.6 Commando was issued Garands during Operation Torch. Following its conclusion, they declined to return them in favour of their Lee Enfields. High praise indeed.
The real scale at which Thompson and later M3 'Grease' gun SMG's supplanted rifles in the squad can only be guessed at. Such weapons tend to gravitate towards NCO's who are not necessarily needed to engage in long range firefights, but who do need to lead the close assault when the SMG becomes vital. One or two weapons seems reasonable, with perhaps a lightweight Carbine finding its way into the gun group. Certainly any greater issue would diminish the rifle power upon which the squad was predicated. In action, the assistant leader would control the fire of the BAR, while the assault group would manoeuvre towards the enemy. The leader could be found anywhere he was needed. The function of the scouts was to probe the enemy line, but they were also needed to add their fire to the assault group.
Platoon HQ was a simple affair; a 1st or 2nd Lieutenant, two Sergeants (one Platoon Leader, the other Platoon Guide), and two runners. The Platoon Commander was actually issued not a pistol but a Carbine, the lightweight M1 (no relation to the Garand). This self loading weapon was probably more use than a pistol, but I wonder how many officers swapped it for a proper rifle or an SMG? The other men carried the Garand. One man in each Platoon, at the direction of his officer, was armed with the M1903 Springfield bolt action rifle, fitted with a sniper scope. A radio, usually the famous 'walkie-talkie' was also carried.
The Weapons Platoon helped to alleviate the deficiencies in the firepower of the squads. Its light mortar section served three 60 mm weapons, each with a range of up to 1800m. The light machine gun section served two belt fed M1919 Brownings. Platoon HQ added two Jeeps and trailers, plus a.50 cal HMG for local anti aircraft defence.
Company HQ was a vast unit, split between the usual command and admin functions. The commander was a Captain, a 1st Lieutenant serving as his Exec. What swelled the size of the HQ was the allocation of no less than seventeen man described as 'Basics'. Every other man in the Company had a task to perform, but the Basics were different. I am reliably informed they were intended to act as a replacement pool, to make good losses sustained in the Squads. Also, they could be detailed for the defence of the HQ if needed. In the previous Company organisation, they were split five per Rifle Platoon with the balance in the Weapons Platoon. Perhaps in up to strength units they were used to provide crews for the Bazookas?
Similarly to the British, the US Company had first three, and by 1944 five Bazookas for immediate anti tank defence. The Bazooka was I think the first rocket launcher placed in the hands of the lowly rifleman. It was ineffective against heavy German tanks, but could still engage the myriad of other armoured vehicles in service. It was perhaps best used as a bunker buster, able to lob a round into an occupied house or machine gun nest. There was no standing crew, and the weapons were issued by the Company commander as necessary.
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It would make life easier and reduce confusion if you were a little more consistent with your terminology and examples.Originally posted by gibsonm:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wartgamer:
A Battalion Command fights its way forward by moving its Command Post to the next site. Its a leapfrog affair and the reserve Company of the battalion is typically where they want to move to.
This post and the one before it mentions Bn operations whilst you are using them to explain Coy operations which is a lower level and a much leaner organisation (e.g. Defence of a Bn CP during an attack and how a CO fights his Bn). </font>
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Canadian ID tags?
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Canadian WWII Command Post example
This website shows how to construct a WWII Canadian Company Command Post (Northern Europe). Since Dorosh has authored many of these, it may be also his webpage.
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http://www.hardscrabblefarm.com/images/ww2/infantry_rifle_org.gif
another TOE perhaps earlier
This shows that each company had two jeeps with trailers. So its ammo resupply for the 60mm (bulky heavy) could be kept up as well as many other items.
[ March 14, 2005, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]
US Infantry Company 1:1
in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps
Posted
dale, go get the jeep and load all this stuff in it..
LMG Section (Weapons Platoon)
Infantry Rifle Company
The following is from a 1944 Fort Benning (Infantry School) student reference text. Among other things, it lists the doctrinal equipment load for the one (yes, one) Jeep and Trailer authorized in the LMG Section (Weapons Platoon) of the Infantry Rifle Company. Remember, there's ONE Jeep in the LMG section and everybody else gets to ride the "LPC" (Leather Personnel Carrier = boots)...
1 x .50 M2 MG
1 x M31 Pedestal Mount
1 x M5 Repair Chest w/Parts for .50
660 Rds .50 Ammunition
2 x M1919A6 .30 LMGs
2 x M5 Repair Chests w/Parts for .30s
16 x Chests of .30 Ammunition (4000 rds)
3 x M9 Bazookas
18 x 2.36" Bazooka Rockets (with 9x M6 carrying bags)
6 x Packboards (and you thought those things were worthless!!)
2 x 15'x15' Camouflage Nets
1 x SCR300 "Walkie-Talkie"
1 x M-1 Gas Alarm
1 x 12 Unit First Aid Kit
3 x AP-50A Recognition Panel Sets
4 x M1942 Asbestos Mitts (for barrel changing... Mmmm, Mmmm)
1 x .45 Auto Cleaning Kit (M1916 Squad Cleaning kit I'm guessing)
1 x Pr M1943 Goggles with Red Lenses
"Approximate weight of load: 1165 lbs".....
PLUS all the crap carried by the driver, the gunner (and whoever else jumped aboard), the vehicle gear (tools etc.)...
Note that the M-3 Tripod is missing. In fact, all of the authorizations checked in this pub that list the M-31 mount do not authorize the M-3 Tripod. That surprised me, but looking at this heaping load there probably was no room left!!!