SlapHappy

You also might try varying the vehicles type to see if that changes anything. All of these observations will help pull out the quirks and bugs in the game.

Emails fine with me, mines posted in my profile. This started out as a question about the RPG-40 which seemed to be pretty darn effective after looking at it for awhile. Then I saw some problems in the game data. 1. They cheated and raised the RPG-40 to a blast rating which will penetrate 20mm of armor by setting it's rating at 15000. Apparently 30000 is used to designate a 40mm penetration rating. It's in the comments section right below the code. 2. Meanwhile, the German grenade bundle is completely hosed. They give it the same blast rating as the single stick grenade. The only difference being they made it "APHE" ammo type. In any event, it is useless as an anti-tank weapon. Incapable of injuring even the smallest tankette. 3. They gave the Gammon Bomb a rating of "4050" even though it has a typical upper charge capability of 900 grams of explosive (at least according to what I have found from various sources). They also gave it a timing fuse, when most accounts say it typically (but not always) used an "allways" fuse. I've fixed that already, though. So, their is little consistency at all. And a little info: The timing on the grenades seems to be variable between two values: 3.2 and 4.2 seconds. I guess the value used is based on proximity of the target the nade is being launched at. A -1 value will achieve an impact fuse. Tracking vehicles: Tracks seem to have an armor rating which varies from 10 to 60 (mm, I suppose). Heavier tanks tend to have the heaviest ratings (Tiger and Elephant). Most models tend to have around 20. So if you find it hard to track a Tiger in the game, that's why. There is also a "health" value associated with different parts of the vehicles, but I haven't figured out what that does yet.

Jeff So any suggestions for "normalizing" the HE performance against armor given the fairly simplistic modeling used in the game. Is there one shell type that could be used to extrapolate the performance to be applied to other ammos types? Given that there is only one type of HE listed for each gun, does that seem like a reasonable approach? Sort of similar to the approach you used when modeling the 50L42 for Oudy's mod tank....

I'm sorry, GoodGuy, you were talking about the test range pic.

Well, that's my point, if I use the model for blast that they are using in the game, the best-case penetration would be around 5mm. In game, the weapon is more than effective attacking the top of tanks up to the PZ IV. It can also typically damage the gun on the Panther when more than a couple of grenades are deployed.

War Raven I would bet dollars to donuts it is some quirk to do with the drivers skill level (and the terrain). What level is the driver in the above example? Have you tried max-ing out his drivers skill to see if he still does the same thing?

yes, that is def. a problem. 20mm HE would rape light trucks in seconds. My guess is (I know this from another game), they gave the cars-trucks a little armour of 5mm, so they wouldn't instant die do a pistol or so. (The 7.92 MG is about 8 - 10mm at 100m) Solution is, increase 20mm HE to +-6mm. that would do the trick. IIRC, the brittish hispano 20mm HE did 6mm @0°@100m Germany didn't have any penetration charts under 75mm HE. Out of my head, the 88mm HE did 35mm @500m. </font>

So if I understand you properly, Jeff, you would suspect .2 or .3 calibers for most HE rounds or 100mm x .2-.3 = 20mm to 30mm penetration? But in the case of the heavy, higher than normal velocity OF-412 you would say .45 to .65 calibers or: 100mm x .45-.65 = 45mm to 65mm penetration? Or am I off by a decimal place? In any event, what it does make me wonder is how the RPG-40 (non-heat) grenade manages to penetrate 20mm of armor (at least by several sources) without having anywhere near the velocity of an HE cannon round and lower projectile mass as well? I'm trying to "normalize" the HE effects on armor in the game and am having a rough time doing so because of lack of available information sources.

My mistake, it takes 750 "blast units" to destroy to penetrate 1mm of armor. Big difference!

Based on the calculations the game is using it takes 750 grams of TNT equivalent to penetrate 1mm of RHA. This seems a bit high. According to this measure it would take 3.75 Kg to destroy a truck. Time for some more tests.

I've done some calculations and it seems that the game models blast at a rate of 4500 "blast units" per 1 Kg of explosive warhead. With the exception of the RPG-41 which has been tampered to produce a 20mm penetration despite it's warhead size. Does anyone have hard data concerning blast wave effects against RHA armor? I've looked in vain so far.

I have to agree they are pretty powerful units. The only thing that balances them is the toning down of the importance of infantry in the game as it stands. In an infantry heavy scenario, though, they could be very decisive. They should be expensive (or toned down a bit).

Actually when the mortars finally come around, I'd be pretty happy if they just included the 50's and 60's and left the 80+ stuff in the support menu. Still, an 81mm mortar makes more sense in this game than a 150mm mobile artillery piece that can't fire indirectly.

Magnetic stuff will be tough. You can model percussive (impact) grenades or timed but not both at the same time. At least I don't think you can. In the DETONATE value (the thing that controls this) there are two values listed side by side for timed grenades. For impact grenades you use -1 value. I just fixed my Gammon Bombs to be impact. They were originally coded to be timed. Turns out their real life counterpart could be either depending on which fuse you used. I'm having a heck of a time balancing the Grenade Bundle, RPG-40, and Gammon Bombs. They are giving the RPG-40 a blast effect of 15000 which was intentionally used because it represents an 20mm penetration effect. That's based on 30000 splash penetrating 40mm. You can see it in the code comments section. The RPG-40 used 795g of TNT for the warhead. The Gammon could be stocked with up to 900g of C4. Yet the Gammon has a rating of only 4050? The German M24 bundle is even worse, given the same penetration as the single M24?? But when I balance the Gammon Grenade to the RPG-40 using a value of 16,950, I'm able to top kill PZKWIV's fairly easily. Who needs a PIAT? Jeff, et. al. Any suggestions for balancing these values? Is the RPG-40 over-modeled?

Oudy Thanks. I got your email and replied. Thanks for the tip about the hier files. I'm feverishly working on trying to balance those grenade bundles as I believe they were inadvertently underpowered through an oversight.

Yep. Was it 350 tons of ordnance that went missing from one bunker? I was just reading an article about it that was from some time back......

Yes, I know . I was just curious if you were actually viewing the .msh files, since I haven't been able to open them in a viewer program to identify what part they represent in the overall model. If you're having to pick through all those meshes by trial and error, I could see how it could take you a while to complete a model transformation. Still looks promising, though.

OK....I just tested the grenade bundles in my "tank trap" ultimate proving ground scenario. Started off with a T-26 since I considered it puny enough to see what the bundles were capable of. Each soldier in the entire squad surrounding the tank with 2 bundles each. Most of the bundles bounced a bit as they were striking the tank directly at the close range. Still, some 25% of them went off directly on or near the tank. Result? Nada. Not one tracked tank in several tests, let alone a destroyed one. No gun damage. Nothing. Ran it like a dozen times. The T-26 has max 15mm of armor. So, assuming that tank was just too tough for these tank-killer bundles, I tried a T-40. Just a bit more of a pushover with even less armor rating. Nothing. No tracking, casualties, nothing. So then I switched to the homely BA-64. 20 grenade bundles more than KO'd the guy in the turret. But again, no wheels blown off, or other damage to the vehicle. That's the equivalent of SEVEN large defensive grenades and 20 of them couldn't take out an armored car. tain't right folks.................just tain't right......

Exactly. One of the reasons I think infantry is hobbled in this game is because the tanks can do just about every thing tanks can do (and then some) and the grunts can't do a lot of the things a person can do....like climb a seven foot wall. Or even more laughably jump over a four-foot wooden slat fence. Or enter a building...OK we've scratched that itch enough.

Battlefront is publishing ToW. They didn't develop it. Although your point is well taken......

I just checked the loadouts for the Germans in the editor. The grenade bundle is already in there ( I hadn't seen it yet). Interestingly enough it has the same blast and fragmentation ratings as the regular (single) m-24, but it is rated as APHE rather than HE ammo type. This will certainly help it's anti-tank capabilities, but won't account for the effects of six vs. one warheads when used against other targets. Needs some tweaking.

The Finns ingenuity seems to have given the Russians fits in the Winter War (for a while anyway).

These mod vehicles are great, Oudy. You should try Either the "Jumbo" or the Sherman 105 next. Although it would be difficult to make the Jumbo look right at this stage with the tools available.

I think slinging the weapon a short distance was done. Especially since the satchels I've seen had a strap to facilitate this. Although I'm sure you are right that they were more often than not carefully placed in position then armed. The grenade bundle would have been an early war blast-effect anti-tank weapon. Not a very effective one unless you are talking about use against lighter armor, but then again there was quite a bit of that in the earliest portion of the war. I'm sure it had it's other uses as well. I agree the gebalte ladung should be in the game as well. Quite common. It would give the early war infantry a little more punch as well.

From what I have been able to gather from some research, the US Army employed a satchel charge consisting of 10 pounds of C-4 explosives for an equivalent of 4.5 Kg. Since C-4 is about 1.13 times more powerful than TNT the equivalent resulting warhead is about 5 Kg of HE. That would put it somewhere in between the typical 122m and 150mm artillery shell for equivalent warhead capabilities. The resulting explosive model would be almost entirely a blast effect weapon unless otherwise modified. Or what the game designers designate "splash" range. What would be the desirable "toss range" for such a modelled device? At ten pounds, not particularly far I would imagine. Also, unlike the typical grenade, I would think any "bounce" effect would be negligible. This would (on the surface) one of the more easily replicatable weapons that is not currently modelled in the game. Although a more appropriate in-game graphic would appear to be the most challenging part of the equation, or so it would seem.