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Larry Thorne

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Posts posted by Larry Thorne

    Aircraft against tanks

    in Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin

    Posted

    originally posted by RAF74Buzzsaw_XO at IL-2 General forum

    Salute All

    Reading the claims by various posters that the P-47's .50 calibre bullets could penetrate the hull of Tiger tanks reminds me of the old urban myth about alligators in the sewers of New York.

    There's always someone who's ready to claim a friend of a friend of a friend really ran into a 12 foot Gator while he was doing his chores in the sewers, but when you actually try to nail down an actual witness, they are suddenly in short supply.

    I am the first to boost the P-47, and point to its real combat abilities, backing up my reasoning with real research, but I think these kinds of absurd claims just cast a shadow on the real excellent qualities of this aircraft.

    Let's look at some facts:

    There is no way a .50 calibre bullet is going to penetrate either the side, front or rear armour of a Tiger tank. The depth of the armour is simply to great for the penetrative power of the bullet. Anti Tank rifles were heavier calibre than the 12.7mm of the American weapon, and they were almost universally discarded as useless after 1942. The only way a .50 calibre round is going to do any damage is by striking the viewing slit of the driver, but that is unlikely, since the angle of the slit is such that a downward travelling bullet would deflect. No to mention that the slit is extremely narrow, and only a perfect shot would penetrate.

    Could a .50 calibre bullet penetrate the louvers over the engine compartment? Doubtful. The Tiger was designed to withstand attacks from both enemy Tanks, as well as enemy infantry, including infantry armed with Machine guns which were situated in buildings higher than the tank.

    Would the .50 calibre penetrate the armour on the belly of the tank? Doubtful again. The Tiger was built to withstand the blasts of anti-personel mines, and could drive over them with impunity.

    The only real chance a .50 calibre bullet has is in damaging the bogey wheels, or treads on the Tiger. And they only way that could happen is with continuous shortrange sustained and focused fire on a single part. Fire from an aircraft is by the nature of the firing platform, scattered, and therefore this type of damage is extremely unlikely to occur.

    There is also the issue of identification.

    From the air, it is very difficult to identify exact types of tanks. Even for stationary U.S. tank gunners looking through telescopic sights, the Tiger and Mk IV were very often confused for one another. The possibility that a P-47 pilot, travelling at 300+ mph is going to be able to positively identify the type of tank he is strafing is extremely unlikely. So how does the P-47 pilot know he is strafing a Tiger?

    Finally, how is the P-47 pilot going to be sure he has destroyed the enemy tank? In most situations, a tank will not catch fire when it is knocked out. The fact that tank is not moving, is not an indication that it has been destroyed. Tank crews were often hit by machinegun fire from enemy infantry, and in that situation, their first response would be to stop and search for a target.

    The fact is, and I don't mean to disappoint those dedicated ground attack pilots who love to fly the ground pounders in IL-2, but Tanks were rarely destroyed by attacks from the air.

    The US Army Air Force did a comprehensive study of the Mortain Counterattack Battlefield. For those who don't know, the Mortain Counterattack was launched by Hitler in a failed effort to close off Patton's 3rd Army Breakout from St Lo during Normandy Campaign in 1944. The Germans committed a large number of Panzer and S.S. Panzer Divisions. During the Counterattack, the Fighterbombers of the British 2nd Tactical Airforce and the U.S. 9th A.F. were credited with playing a large part in turning back the attack, and in destroying a large number of German tanks.

    There is no doubt that the Typhoons and P-47's who participated did do a lot of damage to the Motor Transport of the German divisions, as well as halftracks and self propelled guns. However, the tanks on the battlefield which were examined later were shown to have almost all either to have been destroyed by U.S. Anti-tank guns or Tank Destroyers, or to have been abandoned by their crews either through lack of fuel or poor morale. Very few were actually hit by rockets.

    However, that is not to say the air attacks were not effective. U.S. ground observers did report German tank crews abandoning their vehicles when under air attack. Undoubtably, the sight of a Fighter Bomber bearing down on you complete with rockets would be a terrifying sight for those tankcrew who were not aware that the statistical likelyhood of them being hit was small. If I was cooped up in a metal shell with 100's of aircraft taking runs at me with salvos of eight 120mm rockets, I would be nervous too. I'm not a soldier, but I have worked as a cameraman in a combat zone and have been mortared and shot at, and I know my immediate response was to head for the nearest hole to hide in.

    In any case, to return to my original point, the possibility of a P-47 taking out a Tiger with its .50's is so small as to be irrelevant.

    There are great back and forth arguing about this subject there. Everyone interested about reading these subjects http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=search&reqWords=tiger&use_forum_scope=on&forum_scope=23110283 great "arguing"

    Finish this from my part I want to quote Shot2Pieces

    I would say that the numerous documented instances of tigers on the eastern front remaining combat effective after taking 50+ hits from shells ranging from 45 - 76mm just goes to show that, instead of going to 85mm for the later versions of t-34, they should instead have gone to .50cal.

    Next time I play Combat Mission, and my opponent takes tigers, remind me not to bother with anti-tank guns and to take HMGs instead.

    If he is around here maybe he has more data on this matter.

    Cheers

    LT

    0

    cmakmappack4theike

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Originally posted by theike:

    oh, cool, Larry... smile.gif

    and do you also play on some of them?

    and if so, how do you use them?

    (knowledge i can learn from)

    ...

    What I do is crop them for perfect size to fight ladder QBs as the variety in your maps is so huge that even on one map there are possibilities tro fight different type of battles. Also might edit the amount of flags.
    0

    Hi

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Hi,

    and welcome!

    I´d go with CMBB and CMAK as with CMAK you can also play ETO battles, or if you find the anthology it has the whole trilogy in it. And with CMAK you can play with New Zeland units too.

    LT

    0

    Sie Kommen is Released!!!

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Hi guys

    I am really enjoying all the updates and opinions on the battles. I cannot answer to questions about Waldam Beachead scenario as I have only experienced that agains ai. All I have to say. Murder...evenly. Haven´t hear from Fredrock for a week. I am sure he will visit here ASAP. Keep these post coming. I am sure your questions will be answered and your reports are highly appreciated.

    Thanks

    LT

    0

    Your opinion guys?

    in Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin

    Posted

    Der Kuenstler

    I once played a game and switched frim tcp to pbem only to have my opponent tell me (and i also saw it as they were visible) loose 4 shermans. As the next reinforcements rolled in he got those 4 back plus the reinforcements plus 4 more shermans that were not planned. I knew my opponent and he is a good guy I have known since we were kids so no cheating. He checked how his reinf. should arrive and thus the aliens abducted 4 they returned 8. Not bad. So we agreed that he didn´t use the 4 extra tanks and had a great fight in the end. So I can say they can dissappear but I think our game got twitched in the Matrix as we unaware of the reinforcements arriving stopped the tcp and changed to pbem in that decicive moment , and tehn on next reinf turns out all messed up too.

    Cheers

    LT

    0

    Sie Kommen is Released!!!

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Originally posted by Hiram Sedai:

    Thanks, gentlemen!

    I'll be playing it with a campaign mindset.

    Am wondering if this idea was also applied to CMBB.

    If you mean if there are campaigns like this for cmbb? Click on the RedBeard link on Fredrocker´s signature line. And also the CMC game is coming out...when its ready.

    LT

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    Sie Kommen is Released!!!

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Originally posted by GreenAsJade:

    Grim just whipped me with a precision offensive pretty much by the book at Bridges ... nice scenario, but I'll be curious to know what a winning defensive strategy would be.

    If anyone thinks that the Axis have a chance, I'd like to take you on as Allies and you can show me what I should have done!

    (I guess the medal table tells us that the allies really ought to win... they don't even get a medal for a draw?)

    Well ... on to the Beach!

    GaJ

    Well some of the scenarios are balanced out by the medals table. This thing should push the gamers to the limit instead of letting go they should fight hard to the bitter end to gain enough points to win the overall campaign. Even a loss can be good in SK if you loose and die fighting. Enjoy the beach. Thanks for the update.

    LT

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    Sie Kommen is Released!!!

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Great to hear you are enjoying the pack. All the hard work is right now paying off. smile.gif Very interested to hear how thiese battles come out to you as we have playtested them over and over again H2H and vs. Ai. As the battles were also tweaked over and over again it sure is interesting to hear how the campaign plays out to you guys.

    Cheers

    LT

    0

    Sie Kommen is Released!!!

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Ninj and TC_Stele

    Great to hear you guys are liking this. Also check out the forum for Sie Kommen. You can easily discuss scenario related stuff there too. Well eve though the score for you too is as it is currently. The game is far from over ;) Keep us posted if you could. Great to hear opinions about these battles after all the playtesting exhaustion.

    Vossie

    Great to see you are back, and releasing those wonderful mods again! Thanks for your work! smile.gif

    LT

    0

    Sie Kommen is Released!!!

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Originally posted by NG cavscout:

    10 turns into bridges for the 82nd as the allies, great scenario, has me on the edge of my seat, a real nail biter. I might pull of a minor victory, depends on if I can shift my forces fast enough. Great work guys.

    Unfortunately, I have to go on a 5-10 day mission tomorrow, and won't be able to finish it till I return.

    Great to hear our playtests over and over again were not wasted. Looking forward to hear more. Also you can post at the forum. Link on the signature.

    Lock and load!

    LT

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