John1966

Not hidden, no covered arc and facing the right way. TBH they were just covering the road for anything as that's where the bad guys were coming from, rather than a carefully prepared tank ambush so I didn't feel the need for all that (and hide gets you into all sorts of bother if you're not careful).

But this is where I'm baffled. You get the contact icon for a dead tank often when no unit is selected. I appreciate individual units might not know it's KO'd (or even aware it was there in the first place) but the omnipotent (whether we like it or not) player does. So why bother leaving an icon there when no unit is selected? After all, that's the player's view.

Never really thought about it but I do wonder why it leaves a contact if the player knows it's been KO'd (ie they've seen it confirmed as a kill). Doesn't seem to have any effect on the game to then leave a contact after the confirmed kill. Does cause confusion occasionally when you think some new tanks have turned up but then remember there's a wreck there.

We've all been there. Last night's was particularly annoying. The 5-man para team with the PIAT lying in the long grass next to the road. The Stug drives up right in front of them little more than 20 foot away presenting a side shot. It's screwed. Except the guys with the PIAT haven't spotted it. In fact, they continue to not spot it for a minute. How long it would have taken to spot it we will never know because halfway through that minute the Stug starts to slowly turn, leisurely lining up a shot, before blowing the team to kingdom come. Their last words were, "What tank?" Now, I know there's little point moaning about one-off incidents but I'm sure we've seen this lots of times (something similar happened in my previous game). How do five guys fail to spot 24 metric tons of noisily slow moving steel right in front of them? It had even fired. They would have seen it, they would have heard it, and, at that distance, they'd have even smelled it. The fact that the buttoned up tank pointing the wrong way with multiple targets spotted the guys in the long grass just adds insult to injury. In isolation, I'd accept that. Perhaps they were a crack crew. Perhaps Wittmann himself decided to take a Stug on a jolly that day. But not when his tank is apparently invisible to nearby enemy infantry. I have no idea what goes on "under the hood" in terms of spotting round calculations, but would it not be reasonable to suggest that tanks should automatically be spotted by non-cowering infantry with a clear LOS if the tank is under a certain distance away? Would it break the game? Surely infantry's biggest advantage over AFVs is the fact that they're harder to spot than the AFV? If the AFV is on a distant hill, fine. Easily missed. Behind a building, fine. Intervening foliage? Fine. But in the open and a short distance away, it should be spotted every time.

And sometimes you get a contact marker for tanks that are ex-tanks. (Confirmed kills)

Blowing up suspected positions isn't gamey so shooting at a contact marker can't be gamey either. But whatever our opinions, it does, at times, seem strange to have large amounts of high explosive going off close to a gun and its crew for sometimes long periods for the gun only to emerge in a functioning state. I get the gun shield protecting from MGs. That's what it's there for. (Although I expect it to keep the crew's heads down) But HE can go off a couple of feet behind the gun with little apparent effect.

Yes, got another one last night with the first shot. No arty involved. Panther spotted it, fired once, knocked it out. It was in the open.

Yes. Main Armament. And yes, it is strange that the MA and MGs won't work when someone is listed as a gunner. If there was only a driver left, I'd understand. If a 3-man crew is less efficient, I'd understand. But I can't work out why the operable guns are inoperable. Why is anyone even listed as the gunner? He might as well man the radio (if it's working).

And the MA itself.

Well both tanks have a gunner listed. But, of course, I've no idea if he's the original gunner. Perhaps he hasn't had the training...

Is this one? Not seen it mentioned. Funny it's come up in two consecutive games but I've never seen it before though. Annoying as effectively I'm a tank down.

You'd think it'd have been spotted by now if it was. I'm thinking that it's to do with a 5-man crew being reduced to three. That, at least, is fairly unusual.

I also note this one can also still target smoke. This is odd. Don't they use their MA to do that?

It must be to do with the cover. The Gun That Would Not Die was behind bocage. While that was unfolding, one of my other tanks got another gun with a single shot. In foxholes but otherwise the open. (Although that had also been subject to arty so I think it'd lost crew already - possibly it was already KO'd before the shot was fired but the spotting info didn't confirm until after the shot)

Moment lost. The infantry silenced it.

Thank you for detailed response. I think I have it in my head that infantry like having friendly tanks around. Less inclined to surrender while they're there. Partly because that was what I'd read. But also because there was an optional rule brought into Squad Leader for "battlefield integrity". The idea being that a force that had taken a mauling could easily turn into a unleadable rabble. I forget the details (this was about 30 years ago), but essentially the rule meant that as the amount of infantry on the board dropped (you had to keep a tally), at certain points, your cardboard warriors' printed morale would go down in steps. But what stuck in my mind about it was if you still had armour on the board, the morale losses were offset (again I forget the details). In the rules' notes, basically it said because they'd read that in books too. Soldiers like a friendly tank. Reassuring presence. So yes, that presence of "gucci armour" was the thing that made me raise my eyebrows. Incidentally, I have no idea if "battlefield integrity" (or similar) is modelled in CM. I assume it's just tied up in C2 and auto-surrender. Edit: Worth mentioning that I appreciate we all play these games for slightly different reasons. Mine is a re-enacting history bent. I didn't actually feel "cheated" by the surrender because I didn't get to execute the "perfect" plan. I had no idea if it would work (winning was looking a taller order) and I normally greet the surrender screen by punching the air (which is a bit sad ). So it was more a case that I didn't feel it was a very "authentic" end to the game. The Tigers alone would have put up more of a fight. They only fired their MAs once each (to get each member of the scout team that didn't spot them).

Well, for all I was saying about the on-map stuff, just had a tank immobilised by an ATG (after it had survived the off-map arty), so it just area fired the damn thing until it was out of HE (20-odd rounds). Then suppressed it with target light to keep it quiet (an impressive over-1,000 rounds were expended) and when my infantry got there, it was still functioning.

Just had it happen again in another game. Churchill V(?), the 95mm one. Optics damaged but still working (yellow splodge), down to three crew, one of whom is the gunner.

Actually, I had a save. Churchill VI Radio damaged (but not red), optics out (red). Everything else is green (including weapon controls). Thought it could still fire inaccurately with broken optics (especially the MG). Curiously, it can still target smoke.

Churchill. Forget the mark but the 75mm variety. Pretty sure the Wpn Controls splodge was green (or at least I didn't notice if it wasn't). Think the radio was the only thing that wasn't.

But isn't that an argument for the AI not surrendering in such circumstances? Effectively the guys in the final objective zone will have noticed the radio chatter will have gone a bit quiet. But they haven't even seen an enemy soldier. Just heard gunfire not too far off. And as for the Tiger crews... Well they'd have been court martialled if it wasn't for the fact they were in allied captivity.

This is why all my games seem to descend into (unmodelled) HtH fighting.

I think the radio may have been out. Is there a splodge for turret controls? I'd assume that if it couldn't fire, you'd get a red splodge (or whatever colour it is) for the guns themselves.

Well in the example from the OP that caused me to post, the guns were greyed out for at least 10-15 turns (until the game ended). But I think the normally 5-man crew was down to three. One was the gunner but all it said in the bottom left thing (whatever we call it) was "spotting". I don't think he was bothering anymore.

Yes, I seem to get better results from on-map mortars. When tanks get them it often seems to be from a direct hit though.