Mr. Tittles

The 75mm Sherman APCBC round carries 1.7 POUNDS of high explosive, which would seem to be enough to rip the round apart. Are you sure you havent confused the AP with the HE? Why don't you research that?

http://www.geocities.com/jwxspoon/militaryalbum.htm Check out the pic of the 17 lbr AP stuck in the tiger armor from jwxspoons website. Its a fascinating image that really shows just how hard the AP round is and how elastic the armor is. Note the elongation of the armor and crack in the AP round. The armor has absorbed all the velocity energy as well as the rotational energy from this round. If a crewmens face was behind the armor, he would be severly injured to say the least. [ June 27, 2004, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

As far as what constitutes a radical physical change, skipping a round off typical ground cover at a steep angle is NOT as bad as striking 20mm of armor plate! G forces result from change in velocity/direction. Rexford talks like a 75mm AP round is going through a 20mm plate like its a sheet of paper.

Pzgr. 39 FES APCBC RDX 83 gm. 90% PETN Bd. Z. 5103 black w/red marking - Pzgr. 39 Kw. K. 40 APCBC Cyclonite 82 gm. 90% PETN Bd. Z. 5103 black w/red band/marking These 75mmL48 APCBC rounds carry 83 grams or so of HE. I HIGHLY doubt that the detonation of this HE in the back of a hardened AP shell would shatter it beyond the very small cavity area (if that). What is your source of a Sherman AP round having over a pound of HE? [ June 27, 2004, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

While it does offer excellent protection, it appears that turret hits are very damaging. Great for crew morale but many hits put tanks out of combat.

The real question is does the small HE charge in a APHE destroy the solid round? But the sherman HE was prone to predetonation, so for rexford to claim it is a benchmark is wrong minded. Striking plate is much more a G force shock than hitting soft ground and changing the angle of the shot. [ June 26, 2004, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

Did it fire WP in WWII?

The Panzer IV is sort of a showcase of limitations of the CM system. The generic hit location model, lack of gun depression angle modeling, odd hull down system modeling, 5 man crew advantage, etc. all add up to short changing the most common and important German AFV!

An interesting stat is that Panther units on the eastern front were about equal to Tiger Is till May 44. Only after May do the Panthers reach Panzer IV numbers (which were about 60% of Panther plus Tiger I numbers). During summer 44, the Panzer IV write offs start to exceed production (300 a month produced). Sep 44 sees deckine in production to 180 a month and Panzer IV starts taking a back seat till the end of the war. The funny thing is even in Mar 45, they were majority MBT in Italy and nearly equal on eastern front to Panther but minority against the allies on western front!

Actually I have read of accounts of skipping AP hitting tanks and KOing them. The amount of energy lost by skipping off the ground is not that substantial. Also, base HE in AP rounds may need a massive decel to set it off. [ June 26, 2004, 03:59 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

I doubt an AP round that struck close to a sherman tank could be that noticable given the noise/vibation in a running tank. A HE round landing close to the side of the sherman would have much of its blast force enveloped under the track area. It could be felt as a distict noise/force even when buttoned up. When playing Panzer Elite, I often just had the sights set at 600 meters or so. In close ranged combat, you develop an instinctual correction. In normandy, I bet many German tankers did like wise. I do think that it would always be better to guess short than long. Not only would these HV rounds skip up, they would be easily discernable from the 'splash' they would exhibit. A 'long' round is very hard to judge just how wrong and long it was. [ June 25, 2004, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891/pantherfibel.htm pantherfibel

A big factor is track width. Compare the Tiger II track width to many other vehicles.

An interesting side discussion is that hull down vehicles would be very difficult to get the range to. If the hull down target was a german tank, its even more difficult due to the many different types they fielded. This is probably something that the games modeling does not take into account. Similarly, tanks behind cover or heavily camoed would also be difficult to range on. It would almost always lead to very low chances on first round hits. If the observation of the first shot was difficult (and it was for US tankers due to smoke), then the tanks would be at a severe disadvantage.

Stereoscopic equipment was also used by German tankers 9scissors scopes). By focusing the two images, a reading could give fairly accurate range information. German 88mm Flak weapons certainly had even more powerful stereoscopic devices. The precision needed would only be +/- 200 meters or so. Notice the featureless terrain and extreme ranges. The 88 crew is using a stereoscopic range finder with a wide seperation between the images.

http://tiger1.info/EN/Target.html This shows how the Germans would rough in the weapons alignment on a Tiger. I imagine the next step would be to survey a known range (1000m) and set up a target of a precise height. This would allow the firing of rounds so the weapon could be tweaked in. It would also allow the gunner to train with his triangles for a target height/range combination.

http://64.26.50.215/armorsite/Zeiss_Optics.htm worth reading tigerfibel download http://64.26.50.215/armorsite/TIGER-1%20FILES/tigerfibel.pdf [ June 22, 2004, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

According to Jentz (JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; op. cit.): "These accuracy tables are based on the assumptions that the actual range to the target has been correctly determined and that the distribution of hits is centered on the aiming point. The first column shows the accuracy obtained during controlled test firing to determine the pattern of dispersion. The figures in the second column include the variation expected during practice firing due to differences between guns, ammunition and gunners. These accuracy tables do not reflect the actual probability of hitting a target under battlefield conditions. Due to errors in estimating the range and many other factors, the probability of a first hit was much lower than shown in these tables. However, the average, calm gunner, after sensing the tracer from the first round, could achieve the accuracy shown in the second column". Accuracy: Gun 88 mm KwK 36 L/56 Ammunition Pzgr. 39 Pzgr. 40 Gr.39 HL Range 500 m 100 (100) 100 (100) 100 (98) 1000 m 100 (93) 99 (80) 94 (62) 1500 m 98 (74) 89 (52) 72 (34) 2000 m 87 (50) 71 (31) 52 (20) 2500 m 71 (31) 55 (19) 3000 m 53 (19) As the excerpt says, the range is determined. This is the biggest wildcard in the equation. But as others have pointed out, range estimation errors are both reduced at closer ranges, AND have a further minimal effect since the high velocity weapons do not exhibit appreciable shot fall due to gravity/time at short ranges. And, again, Mikeys example is out of context and means nothing to the discussion. Its like two gunslingers who bump into each other in a doorway. Niether will be the best shot because teh immediacy of the situation does not allow SOP to take place.

Actually it seems to imply that the tiger (and sherman) were moving or had come to a short halt. It also seems that the Tiger may have had a HE shell in the breech at the time and needed to clear it out quickly. An AP 88mm would not have a concussion that would lift a sherman at all if it did not hit it. The topic is really what are the first round chances of hitting a target. I would assume that means a stationary firer AND target. At shorter ranges (200-600 meters), I dont think that anybody would aim at the bottom of the target vehicle. They would aim for the center (after dialing in estimated range) and the reduced range estimate error would be forgiving. That is, any error in range estimation would still result in a hit. [ June 22, 2004, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

In reality, shots that landed short would skip off the ground and present a real danger to the target. These shots could even get under the targat and penetrate the belly armor in some cases. At 400M, I can hit a tank sized target with an M16 with iron sights 90%+ of the time. Do you really think a 88mm would do any less?

I imagine the nebels could send one 6 rocket launcher to a deserted firing area, and fire all 6 rockets, one at a time. The strike could then be observed for a center of effect. The launcher would immediately skidattle but this site could be used later. The effect on the recieving end could sow panic if rounds impacted. The fear being that they would get a larger concentration soon. It would make little sense to fire one rocket and then try to adjust in the next one. They are not accurate enough (not repeatable really) to bother. The accuracy of a sample of 6 or so WOULD show the beaten area and THAT could be dialed in. Once a barrage was selected, ammo could be delivered first, the launchers arrive second and given the pre-determined co-ords, a mass fire launched and the nebels could scatter afterwards. Fire into towns with tall buildings would catch the longs (due to the height of the building) and the shorts could hit mines and wire. Its ellipse is then shortened by the buildings height. It really is a blast weapon and its destructive effects and secondary missiles are its main feature. They were not much of a fragmentation weapon. Against dug in troops in an infantry line, it is more a terror weapon. Direct hits being needed and its longs and shorts would be very wasteful. [ May 22, 2004, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

Thats indirect arty command? target wide? But if the area fire had something similar, it would be OK also.

I would like to see multiple area targets in one turn. So a player could target a treeline by putting three area fire commands at three parts of the treeline. The unit would then divvy up its firing for 20 seconds on each assigned target.

At 8000+ yards, a single 6 rocket nebelwerfer can place them onto a football field? Considering the heavy payload and the range, thats pretty good chucking. I dont think the larger rockets were as accurate though. The soviets katyushas were not that accurate if they were fin stabilized. They would be very susceptible to crosswinds also.

Does that data show that they have less deviation at longer range? These rockets were spin stabilized? In Tigers in the Mud, the author gets caught under friendly nebel fire. Hes in a Tiger but his supporting infantry is demolished. He said it was an almost perfect hit on the jump off point. Perhaps the rocket guys mixed up coordinates.