GreenAsJade

Right now he's moving an MG out from behind P532 ridge to look down the valley and cut off my attack. That's OK - the same smoke that deals with the tanks can deal with the MG. Maybe I can get a bead on the MG with a mortar as well. It's definitely the case that I'm not going to be launching into an attack on the right till I have some clue what is on the left. This still remains to be seen: I think it's a turn or two before I get eyes over the crest... GaJ

I think that when the time comes for the main thrust forwards, if those guys are there, then I will certainly have to smoke them. I really want to be able to get a peek around behind with a scout to have some sense of what's waiting, before I make the main rush. My lookout high on the right hand ridge had to hide last turn (under fire from the Shermie). He is unhiding again this turn. If he sees that the coast seems clear from Shermie overwatch, then a scout will make a run for it up the right. If not, I'll hold off and keep trying to annoy him on the left... GaJ

Hmmm ... I'm wondering if Bil is a little hard up for a plan, in the way that I am.... His overwatching Shermies pulled back again this turn, as if to say "yeah, I'm here, come and get me if you dare". It's easy to get carried away with second guessing in cases like this. Does he have a mass-force building up in the valleys that I can't quite see into, and he's teasing me over on the opposite front with his Shermies as a distraction (plus continuing to deny me a view into the valleys)? Or does he know that I know that he's probably doing that, and so actually he's doing something else instead. Like waiting for me to make a push then wacking me over the head. Well, I'll just have to kinda stick with my plan. This means inching forwards ready for the right opportunity on the right: And probing as best I can on the left (hopefully the pulled-back Shermie this turn gives my scouts a bit of a clear run, enough to maybe see over the edge....) GaJ

FWIW, I tried out dropping "Heavy Medium Point" 81mm barrages on 3 shermies, and in all three cases all that was achieved was some track damage. So this is not the solution to my problem... GaJ

When I read the title of this thread, I thought it was going to be about scenarios in battered buildings... GaJ

OK ... now I have to "go slow" for a bit. Bil has set up tanks that are blocking a great deal of the "scoutable terrain": A Stuart has popped up making it very hard for me to get further and have a look into the left hand Bil-side valley... And the two Shermies are largely denying access up the right hand side: I can only think of making the push up the right at a time where I might have some advantage - either Bil is not looking there (clearly not the case) or I have him busy with something else. So I need to work on the latter. At the moment, the only opportunity seems to be to keep scouting up the middle-left, where the flattish peak of MonteP is shielding the scout from the Stuart, and the bushes may hide them from the Sherms. GaJ

Hmm - two Sherms have popped up on P523 ridge now, looking for all the world like they're guarding against my right flank press. I might have to go conduct some 81mm artillery-vs-Shermie experiments.... GaJ

Good stuff Ian. Isn't it fascinating that the average number of walls to Yellow, Orange and Red is less when you're moving Slow than Fast. I remember similarly unintuitive results about "how often does a tank bog/immobilise" depending on how fast it goes over given terrain - IIRC, the number of boggings for a given distance over each terrain was independent of speed. I can almost picture the screenies that the person who tested this posted, though I haven't been able to quickly find that thread just now. GaJ

Brief update: Bil pulled back his tank, and didn't keep firing at the scout. That's interesting. It makes me wonder if his tank broke fire discipline last turn, and now he's cursing that I know where it is. Well... it's nice if he didn't mean it to happen but not so nice that now I no longer know where that tank is. In a dream scenario that Shermie is being dispatched to move over to where he think's I'm attacking on my left. Hah - I wish. On my right nothing to report: scouts creeping still up the right, on hunt. Its oh so tempting to rush a bit forwards before hunting, but I feel like I better take it carefully. The Mortars & HMGs are reaching the overwatch locations. I'm trying hard not to get cold feet about this plan... GaJ

_This_ part of it was a blunder I think I will pay for dearly if things go at all well initially. I definitely should have at least brought ammo supplies. Of course, if I get myself wiped out in my first drive, then it will be academic! GaJ.

Thanks for the wall info Vinart. It's interesting how different the experience a person _thinks_ they have in general playing is from the reality when you test it out eh? This comes up all the time. I can't think what I would have liked to sacrifice out of my force in order to bring wheels for the men. Too late now anyhow. And... his tank opened fire on my scouts. That's interesting: now he knows I know he know's that I'm here and I know he knows I know he's there And as if proof were needed, it proves what a disaster area that plateau is against fire from his impregnable-castle-ridge. Imagine trying to take that Sherm out any other way than going where I'm going, around the back. Unfortunately I goofed with the shape of the top of the hill - I thought my scouts were coming up just in the lee of the flat-peak of the hill, able to hide from the P523 ridge, but I "missed". Darn. Poor buggers... now they have to run for it: Still slow and steady on the right flank: No-one over there is much looking forwards to the next step: actually doing it, but ... no-one has a better plan... GaJ

I deliberately didn't bring transport. I figured that in a 1.5 hours QB with indefensible VLs, there's no particular rush to get the whole force anywhere. The usual QB rush is driven by the need to convert even odds (meeting head on) into superior ones (being the defender with the same force strength as the attacker). The opportunity did not appear to exist for me on this map. I know that soldiers tire quicker up hill, but for the scouts in particular, there appears to be little point in them arriving at their lookout locations all fresh. They will either be sitting doing nothing watching there, or getting shot at, and hopefully skuking away. The rest of 6Co took a bit of a breather last turn, and is either "ready" or "tiring" at this moment. 5/8Co is has tired units, but once again, they need to be in the right position, then they can relax if it's not an immediate fight. And if it is an immediate fight, then I needed that initial burst of rushing to be there... that's been my thinking. The 6Co scouts will stop and do some decent spotting when they have a view into somewhere meaningful The main objectives to spot into are the valleys behind MonteP. I agree it's dubious whether they should have a covered arc, especially since (on the left) I'm not really intending to hide my presence. That arc is just really left over from setup paranoia: give all units arcs to prevent accidents. The juicy sherm seems unfortunately too much of a long-shot to waste my precious 81mm assets on, for now. GaJ

Next turn ... oooh - more contact: ... the 6Co scout is doing his job already. And velllly intellesting: ... it looks like Gen Bil did fancy that ridge as a place to set up camp. That sure doesn't have the look of a Sherm that's going anywhere. Oh boy, I wish I bough 105mm or bigger now: look how nicely it's sitting on the TRP Ah well, I won't waste shells trying to damage it with 81mm ... must stay disciplined and use those on soldiers, if I can find some. Meanwhile, I really hope he's spotting my scout, and starting to think that the left hand side is where I'm moving. Actually, the rest of the gang are slowly making their way up the right hand side. For those interested in How To Move Your Tank Safely (If Not Ethically): you]'ll be interested to know that Braum took the wall on "Slow" and still copped the track damage hit. I have deja-vu about this: I must have tried that in the past, and concluded that you might as well go "Quick" over walls. Interestingly, I had the impression that Christoff maybe slowed as he came to the wall the previous turn, on Quick. I'm sure someone else fascinated by these things could check that out. Meanwhile, it's just slog along carefully on the right: GaJ

Not much to report as a result ... Bil did not come rushing madly at me through the right hand gap, so that's something Now 5Co scouts have been chosen and given their marching orders... 6Co scouts on the other side are a bit tired, but jogging on up the hill. Probably 2 more turns before they get to the top. GaJ

... the wait for next turn is a little nerve wracking, by the way. If Bil has decided he likes the look of the right hand side of the map as much as I do, then he could conceivably be rushing headlong into my own headlong rush. If he was really audacious and did it with recon-armour, it'd be a big mess for me. I'm not sure how far up the slope my guys will get in the next minute, so I also tweaked back their end-points so they are short of cresting the first rise, just in case nasty things are over there...

Contact! Interesting! The first sound contact I have is way off in the back left corner: something tank-ish. I guess I can't read too much into it yet, but it certainly borders on good news: maybe Bil is interested in that half of the map, and those attractive valleys of his. That might give me the space I'm hoping for round the back right. I can but hope, at this stage. Having typed the big explanation a bit earlier of my plan, I was forced to confront the question "why try to set up behind MonteG?". I can't find an answer, other than it looks cozy. Really, if I'm going round the back, then I should go with full strength. As a result, I've tweaked 6/8Co orders, preparing for the full force to go around. ... with just the Batallion HQ and a shrek going over to look round the back of MonteGoc 6Co are splitting up for the scouting phase of the mission: the short straws have been drawn, and the unlucky beggars who have to look over the top into that nasty valley behind MonteP have their orders. And ... Christoff managed fine, bashing through the second wall. Look, there's not even a dent. He didn't cop a second hit on the damage meter... fingers crossed the first little hit was just some grit in the tracks. GaJ

OK, now that we've dealt with How To Get Your Tank From Here To There Safely And Ethically, and DvC's DOG, I've had a little time on the plane (I'm travelling on business this week) to reflect on The Plan (I didn't have the next turn to work on before I had to leave!). To recap: my thinking is that the Main Thing is that the VLs in is ME are too hard to take and defend. There's just no cover, they are wide open from everywhere, especially the two on my side of the map. The other thing is that the duration is so long that there aren't going to be many men standing at the end, at least on one or other side. So I need a plan to find him and wipe him out, that's all that matters I recall the advice of some gun who wiped me out one "Use HE for killing, use men for taking territory." The HE that I've chosen is mostly 81mm artillery. The two PzIVHs are more about fending off his armour than anything else. What I'm hoping to be able to do is to have Bil defending one of the areas lined up with TRPs, then hope that I can deliver enough damage with 81mm mortars to have the balance in my favour. This can be a dicey business, because its easy to waste a bunch of mortar fire without doing much more than suppress and inconvenience. If it's going to work, I'll need soft targets cramped up under the fall. From his side of the board, I was very attracted to the P523 ridge. It looks like an awesome place to set up a defense. The trouble with it, though, is that I can't think how I would achieve anything else on the map while defending it. So I'm more inclined to think that a great place for Bil to own would be the saddle with the ruins. He can get a big force up there, up the valley on that side of the map, and he can strike out from there in many ways. Interestingly, the most attractive way of trying to attack that spot is from Bil's side. So, this is what I'm thinking: - Try to enage him with the Main Force (5&8Cos) while he's on a TRPed location. - Push up the right flank, aiming to break right around behind his line. If he's setup on P523, then he'll get shelled. If not, then in theory he's over behind MonteP. We'll have to traverse through his whole setup zone and around behind to fight him there - again hopefully while he's being shelled. - Use 6Co to scope out whether this is in fact where he is, and if he is, then engage lightly to hopefully keep him there till the cavalry can arrive. I've got a bit of a problem that I can't see into the main/central valley at all. I'm going to need to send someone from 6Co to try to poke their head over the ridge and make sure there aren't bad things happening there to catch me by surprise. And of course, the big short term problem: can I really pull it off, getting through to the back? ... (As you can tell, I'm back on line now, waiting for the next flight at Changi airport. No turn yet: either Bil's having a great weekend, or he's already flustered by my outstanding tactics and unable to decide what to do next ) GaJ

Whoa, I better run, the Gaminess Police are in town!! Usually "Gamey" is reserved for sins like The Turn Zero Oppo-Setup-Zone Artillery Strike, The Jeep Recon To Trigger Covered Arcs or even Map Edge Hugging. I've never heard it applied to Driving Tanks Too Fast Off Road. Well, one thing we all know is that gaminess is in the eye of the beholder. In fact, this is so well established, that over at WeBoB theres's a whole scale of gaminess, figured out over the years: Dr Von Cool's Degree Of Gaminess. Fascinatingly "Driving Tanks Too Fast Off Road" doesn't appear there. I wonder how a gamey tactic "the highest order" was overlooked all this time? GaJ

I'll tell ya's what. I'll have Braun drive Slow over the next wall, and we'll see what happens! GaJ

Well, you guys have really hexed me now I have played about 40 CMx2 games H2H and never lost a track, rushing tanks all over the place. I bet the next thing that happens is I throw a track, in front of the whole of you lot!!! Doh! :eek: GaJ

LOL, I've never done that. My tanks always go quick or fast (except rarely when hunting). Out of curiosity, if I went slow over the wall, would I take no track damage? That'd make it worth slowing down On the other hand, if you _still_ take a hit of damage on the track going slow over the wall, then I'm not sure I would bother slowing down. Looks like this AAR is going to be a major learning experience GaJ

I just had an even worse thought. Maybe that's _not_ the stupidity that Seedorf was referring to. In which case.... OMG, what _else_ am I doing!? Anyhow, I did suggest to the TC's that they probably don't need to rush quite as much... afterall, there's still an hour and a half to go.... Fortunately, as you can see, Christoff took only one wall's worth of track damage so far, so no harm done by the initial over-enthusiasm! Not much else to report: 5 & 8 Co are rushing off down the first hill to their destiny: and 6Co are moving up the valley uneventfully... GaJ

I guess that's the blatant stupidity that Seedorf was referring to eh? (sigh) I guess that's what you get when you bring a flatlander commander into the mountains!

Like I said, the sun came out GaJ

Yeah! Rah Rah! And... arrows! And stuff! BTW, Christoff & Braun are both pretty pissed that the plan is to mess up their tracks driving through walls. I just couldn't risk them going the long way around along the road. ... after a long argument, Christoff agreed to lead the way, but Bruan owes him one wall...