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WW2 was Man's creation, not His. God doesn't interfere in humanity's wars; except for that battle story in the Bible about the wall's (of Babylon or something?) tumbling down because of God.
Oh yeah, there's this one story with Hitler on a stage during a speech, and a carpenter had placed a bomb right underneath. It didn't go off. Did God choose to save Hitler? And what right did God have to interfere in the Confederacy? They were all bible lovers. The Confederacy wasn't evil, although slavery is. Its economy was geared towards slavery since early 1700's, and people are always reluctant to change (like US today with your ridiculous recycling programs. Do you realize that the average US citizen generates 8 times the trash that a European makes? And a European generates 60 times an East Indian, and a 1000 times an Ethiopian). Your pigs, all of you
P.S. Canada is no better, but i'm living in Germany now, so I'm saved -
My two cents: There is no likelyhood, in any way, that Germany would have invaded the North American continent. Ever. Not later, not ever. It's a ridiculous historical what-if? Hitler might, *might* have held on to what he conquered in Europe had he won. Even if the USA were the only contender against a victorious Axis, they would easily have held up against any invasion. Do you realize how long those supply lines would have been for the Axis? It's not feasable. Perhaps a few commando-raids, Iceland, Greenland, ok. But taking on an remote continent? No. Never. US Navy was too strong, would have been stronger in 1950, Germany would have invaded a country with some 10 million (non-russian) soldiers, fully dedicated to stopping any invader. No way. If Hitler spoke of it, even he knew how seemingly impossible it would be. Hell, he barely wanted to invade England across a small channel.
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Evil begets Evil Liam. I am not contesting equal Japanese atrocities. My point is that we should be better than the simple 'Eye for an Eye' mentality. They (the citizens) weren't evil, they were mislead, at least to a large degree, on their governments' wrong-doings (just like today). Military targets, ok, destruction of civilian populace, not ok.
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Well, I think the international chess rating system should be used. It's very common among other games too. You get points for beating lower ranked players, but the lower he is, the less points you get. The reverse is true for beating higher ranking players. I don't know how Liam is number 2 in ICSL, with 1-15... does not make sense to me. However, you should sort the list by skill rating, not 'Top 50'. Top 50 my ass.
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"Yes, the U.S. dropped a couple of fattys on Japan, payback for Pearl Harbor & that ugly war which many don't even discuss. We lost alot of guys in the Pacific (had some stupid leadership in my opinion dying for worthless Islands)"
Interesting little fact, the U.S. killed more Japanese civilians in their B-29 bombing campaigns between August 1944 and September 1945 than all American dead from every war it has ever fought in (Revolutionary war -> Vietnam +). Now THAT'S payback!
Oh, and these numbers don't include Nagasaki and Hiroshima. -
Terif, if you want a challenge, play me or Rambo with the same bid, now that'd be a challenge, even for you hehe
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This game IS a drug... but, as said, a cheap one. Mind you, who here sits playing this game for 8+ hours not drinking or smoking some kind of drug or another?!?
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Ok, most of those previous points by DSEDS are hogwash imo. I don't need to rebutt them, they rebutt themselves.
Pearl Harbour? If you actually need to know, Roosevelt DID know about an impending attack by the Japanese. Completely, 100%. He wanted them to attack, obviously, to bring America into the war. A war he wanted to get involved in, for good reason. However, what you all fail to realize, is that he didn't know WHERE the attack was going to take place. All the top brass and intelligence officers assumed the attack would take place in South East Asia, most likely the Phillipines. It was thought impossible that a Japanese attack on Hawaii could happen, it was simply to far. Remember, up to that point, no similiar attack had ever occured from such a distance.
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Rambo, I believe you're refering to ideology. People often mistake it for a religion, for it has some resemblances, but it is something quite separate. Heavily religious Germans were by and large against Hitler, but had no choice accepting his regime. What most don't understand, is that once Hitler came to power, it was too late to stop it. Bush got into power for his term on shaky grounds, and Gore had more of the popular vote. Yet for even those who despise the man, we play out democracy and wait for the next election, like it should be. The Germans voted Hitler in fair and square (up to debate of course), and hence the whole country had to subjected to his rule. And let's face it, he appeared to be a man for all Germans (excl. german jews).... at first.
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Quebec is the best place to live in the world, bar none. If you'd do your research, Canada was #1 place to live in the world in the 90's, alternating with Norway, Sweden sometimes. And, in the Top 10 list of best cities to live in in Canada, the towns of Kirkland, Beaconsfield and Pointe-Claire were the top 3, in that order. I grew up in Kirkland. So, technically, I grew up in the best country's best city in the world. Wow I say. Wow.
Yes, Quebec certainly has lived up to its reputation as 'La Belle Province', inspite of it's separation movement (which has some legitimacy).
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I'd just like to say that Afghanistan never 'defeated' the Soviet Union per se. Actually, if you read more about the 79-88 invasion, you'll see that the Afghan government actually requested that the Soviets come in. It was quite a complicated situation. However, the Pentagon saw this 'aggression' as a possible swing towards the Middle East. It was possible, but indications from Gorbachev later on indicated that that fear was unfounded.
Most of the Moslem world is backwards. The poor in the western world arguably still have it better than most of them. The question is, is it our 'duty' to bring them our technology, our standard of living. Western Ideology says that all people 'deserve' freedom, freedom from sexism, freedom of speech, freedom to vote.. etc. I personally think our philosophy on life is the 'right' one. It makes senses, it's logical. Moslems are by and large trapped in a religion that is restrictive in many ways. I'm not saying it's a wrong religion, but it is somewhat incompatible with the modern world. Any moslems on this board by chance? I'd like to hear them speak up.
AND, how the hell did this topic get to this thread! Who the hell hijacked it?!?
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Thanks Jersey
Actually, I would have made the thread more detailed than it was, but it's a long topic indeed. One can discuss a topic like this for endless hours. WW2 IS the most documented subject to-date. Ok, wanted to clarify the point about North Africa. I didn't write as much as I would have liked, so I'll say it now.
There was a plan to invade Malta, a very good idea, however, this plan was not a necessary prelude to taking Suez in my opinion. Rommel wished to pursue the Brits into Egypt while they were in dissarray, a solid idea for sure. However, he could not imagine the supply problems that he would have. He begged Hitler for more men, but most of all, more supplies, replacements etc. In much material i've read, Hitler claimed it was impossible to supply Rommel properly in 41-42 when Malta was for much of the time neutralized. These problems, however, were easily overcome once the Americans landed in Algeria. Suddenly, 200000 germans and 120000+ tons of supply became available, along with the newest batch of Tiger tanks. All this of course during a time of decline. Rommel wrote that he didn't understand the High Commands decisions and unwillingness to help him. Like he and many others said, Hitler had to but give the OK for all this. The Italians were finnicky, but again, if Hitler ordered Mussolini to obey, they would have followed. More supplies, and another 2-3 divisions (should be panzer, or motorized), and perhaps another Luftflotte would have made all the difference. The benefits of this small increase in support would have paid ten times the dividends in the future. One item I didn't mention was that USSR was being heavily supplied with equipment through Iran by the West. This being cut-off, and the whole of the Mid-east occupied, the Brits would be in a very dire position, even with American support. In effect, the meditteranean would be a one-front war instead of 2 (west med/gibraltar/Algeria/Tunis), east med/suez/Egypt,Libya). Italy might never have been invaded, and a much stronger Axis position in North Africa.
Was it pivotal? No, not in my opinion. Doing the above would only have bought the axis more time. However, it might have put them in position where a negotiated peace would have been possible.
Oh, and religion and war have zero to do with each other. Ppl like Osama use God to their advantage. God is not on their side, and neither was He on the Americans side. God imo, does not interfere with such things.
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Good game Liam. I honestly did not expect Sealion, and, well, there it was. Could've gone the other way, but, it didn't
Russia was 2 hexes from Berlin on it's 3rd turn, and Koenigsberg-Warsaw encircled. Romania was going down the next turn before Liam surrendered. I figured even IF Sealion worked, i'd still fight on. Oh yeah, and Spain joined Axis, but it didn't make a difference.
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May 41:
Heavy fighting across the globe. Failed Brit attack on LC, although destroying a ger corps, brits lose an army. Jet level 1 against axis 0. Sweden being brutally attacked.
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Failed attack on Vichy France, RN strong east of Gibraltar. Italian BB, CL and Corp transport sunk with 1 damage to RN Carrier unit
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Battle of France over in August, Bordeaux and Brest being held strongly. Denmark capture 4 turns ago, RN hasn't lost a ship, no carrier damage. BoF ended with 1 UK army, 1 Can Army, 2 UK corps being destroyed. Only Fr HQ escaped. 1 Ger Army, 1 Pz Army, 1 Corp destroyed.
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December:
Denmark converted, Fr Corp destroyed SW of Brussels again.
March:
Blood Hex taken, Ireland DoW since turn 1, forgot to mention
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October:
- Pz destroyed north of Blood Hex. German retribution kill Fr Corps SW of Brussels.
- Hunting for Subs
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25 bonus 'bid' points to Liam. I'm allies, he bid 190, so I got 165. 1:5:20, standard house rules.
September 39:
Fr HQ bought, Poland running around as Pol Breakthru occured.
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Actually, Goering did order the Luftwaffe to concentrate on Radar Towers for part of the BoB. The strategy worked very well in fact. The Brits were in the dark whenever their towers went down. However, 2 things in their favor, 1, Goering (and the high command) were not aware at how much damage they were actually doing (a lot), and 2, they were going after the wrong targets. The towers themselves were quite difficult to pinpoint bomb, but the huts where the personnel running the radar towers, were not. Nobody thought to bomb them, and they were far more difficult to train/replace than a tower.
At the end of September, the Brits had much fewer pilots left, and could not continue replacing them. Same problem Germany had at the end of the war, enough planes, not enough pilots. It was the darkest hour of the battle, and moral was very low among british pilots. It came close.
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Although I am a practicing Catholic, bringing the Bible into other cultures is, well, un-practical. We need more tact. The peoples of the middle-east want and need to develope their own ideas. We can't and should not enforce upon them our version of enlightenment. They must find it themselves. I do believe, however, that an example is necessary for them. Iraq, if it becomes a stable, successfully functioning democracy, can provide this example.
The technological gaps between 'us' and 'them' are getting larger every year, not smaller. Germany was born out of western ideology, not islamic. Their resurgence out of the ashes of WW2 is a combination of many factors, but the most major of them, is that they are similiar to us in very many senses, racially, religiously and industriouly. Moslems are by and large, not.
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About the WMD's, there was evidence to suggest that Saddam had them, or was constructing them. However, this was not the sole reason for invading. In my belief, it was because Saddam would in the long-term create an unstable world oil supply. Many countries (actually, most) have quite a few human rights problems, and Saddam isn't the worst. However, he was a dictator in the wrong part of the world. Oil is a necessity, not a luxury anymore. The U.S. hopes to creat a long lasting stability in the region, through both the removal of Saddam, and the demonstration of its military might. This demonstration is often necessary, as other countries who wish to conquer their neighbor are often reminded of the worlds' police nation.
Is the US bad for doing this? Hard to say. We tend to force Western ideals on people who don't really want it. Who says these people want democracy? Democracy (apart from Greece) is a recent invention even for us, and it's usually only applicable in sufficiently developed countries. I can't see 20 or 50 years in the future, but it'll either go one of two ways, armageddon or world peace.
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Was bored, wanted to write something.
I'm tired of hearing accusations that Germany had no chance of winning the war, either against the West or against Russia. They are completely false, and most have little basis with reality. This is NOT a pro-german-theyresuperior-we'renot subject, but simply written to make all you who are not aware at how close the world was to changing. Superior german tactics won them time, but the war was lost on a series of dumb high-level decisions.
- Poland: Had Germany stopped there and not gone on to invade any other countries, it is most likely hypothesised that the western allies (france, uk) would have had to eventually make peace, as offensive actions into Germany were unsuitable, and arguably unattainable. In essence, Germany would already have 'won' had they stopped.
- Dunkirk: Hitler's and Runstedt's mistake of letting the B.E.F. slip away is arguably THE biggest mistake of the war. Those men were the cream of the U.K. and went to fight on every front for the remainder of the war. If the BEF was destroyed, the UK, after such a catastrophic loss, would surely have sued for peace.
- Sealion: Many books have been written on the subject that Germany had no chance succeeding with Sealion. Well, I've read many other books which contend that Germany had a reasonably good chance of succeeding. Many claim the Battle of Britain was 'won' by the British, but the fact is, Germany changed tactics mid-battle, and eventually withdrew most air units to other theaters in the early spring. At no point did the British own the skies above them. What they did is prove to the Germans that they would resist, and keep on resisting. Air Marshal Dowding contended that had the Luftwaffe pressed in destroying the remaining RAF airfields, there would be little to no Air resistance in a cross-channel crossing. Only the RN would be there, and losses to them were expected to be extremely high. Britain had lost most of it's stock in heavy equipment/tanks on the Dunkirk beaches, and the Panzer divisions would have a field day in the plains of southern britain.
- Russia shouldn't have been invaded, but even that they were, many times during the invasion itself were opportunities presented for the capture of Moscow. Guderians diversion to Kiev certainly cost the Axis the prize of Moscow. Stalingrad should never have happened. 4th Panzer Armee could have captured it in July had it not been diverted south. the double-objectives of Caucasus and Stalingrad should never have happened.
- North Africa. With 2-3 more divisions, Rommel would have won in 41-42. No problem. UK was hanging on a thread before they came back for vengeance. Taking Malta/Gibraltar=huge. Backdoor open to Caucasus, threatening India, making Turkey even more Pro-Axis.
- US entry into the war should never have happened. Hitler declared war on them, not vice-versa.
- Peace with the USSR in 1942-43 could have easily happened, and Stalin was considering it until the disastrous Axis losses at Stalingrad, and then Kursk.
- Arguably getting Spain on the Axis side could also have been decisive. The fall of Gibraltar would have made the British situation at Malta and the Suez almost untenable. This wasn't alone enough to win the war, but if the war was limited to UK alone, it would have been.
- The Jewish Question: Complete nonsense, this un-called for and barbaric systematic destruction of the jewish race ensured not only a braindrain from germany/german occupied lands, but also created a logistical nightmare in the later war years. Trains that were needed for war material were diverted, personnel to man camps, and terror squads to roam the country side. Also, this goes along with treating citizens of occupied countries like sub-humans, which caused equal harm.
We should be thankful that Hitler was not as bright as Manstein, Zeitzler or Rommel, because any could see the folly in his massive, grave mistakes that certainly cost germany the war.
[ September 04, 2004, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: Avatar ]
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April 40
Many units destroyed outside of Paris, LC finally taken. UK med fleet around Malta. UK still has 3 corps plus canadian army in france, risky move.
Oh, and these numbers don't include Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
Random Discussion #1
in Strategic Command 1
Posted
Rambo, now I've always always told everyone I know: Americans are all full of spirit, heart, and good intention. They fought on the 'good' side in both world wars, korea, vietnam, others etc. I think as well that it was America, this century, that saved the world from the dictators. As far as being canadian, I think of you guys as next closest of kin.
I think in the context of WW2 and the 'if germany could have..', i was meaning to highlight a period and course of time that could have radically changed our world from the one we know now. I believe (at least by the books i've read), that it was really a hair's breadth away from that moment. It's mind boggling! All said, America and Roosevelt were instrumental in the allies' final victory, but Hitler and others were more instrumental in their own defeat.