Shaka of Carthage
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Posts posted by Shaka of Carthage
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Number 3 and 4 are good ideas.
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Kunniworth
I agree that a editor would solve some of the issues we have. Then the debate would be about the type of editor, since some want unit mods, others want hex mods and even more want both.
But until one is issued or we are given permission to develop it ourselfs, we have to make do with what we have. So we develop House Rules, modify the campaigns or handicap our play. We don't have any other choice.
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When you attack London, does this increase the Russian readiness?
Please tell me that if its true, this was a recent change. I don't ever remember that being the case.
I had a condition where the Russian readiness went from 84% to "Preparing for War" in one turn. I was attacking London, Spain was Axis, Balkan minors were still neutral, Greece was neutral and Yugo was revolting (but one turn away from being crushed).
PS... Allies had attacked Portugal. Spain then declared for the Axis. That is how Spain became Axis.
[ August 24, 2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]
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My "wish list" for Version 1.08
While I haven't done it yet, Liam (?) and JerseyJohn (?) outlined some well thought out map changes and corrections to the existing map that I will add to my enhancement list.
Historically Responsible
(love that term, thanks JerseyJohn)
SC is near perfect as a game for two balanced sides to fight each other during WWII. Thats fine for Greys' fighting the Reds'. I want Germans fighting Russians. Here are the items I feel would accomplish that.
This is my attempt to have the economy reflect the importance of certain minerals and oil.
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Iron Ranger
Yes, I was referring to the topic you started. I think you are wrong that it wouldn't benefit anyone to explain why but thats your choice. Since I still want to know (and perhaps others do as well) and after reading your next post, I think I may have figured out what you feel the problem is. So let me try and state my deduction and you can tell me if I am right or wrong.
You believe that by the time Germany starts Barbarossa, the Axis will be equal or even exceed the MPP production of the Allies. If the Allies don't reduce the German production in the next 2 to 8 turns, its basically over for the Allies. Since the Siberian Transfer gives the Allies a MPP bonus, the smart Axis player will not trigger it.
Does that summarize it properly? If so, I agree with you.
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Immer Etwas
I'd suspect that my brain chemistry has been altered by the effect of reading this forum over the past year or so.
Jollyguy
You bring up a good point. If you can't see why there is a problem with the Allies doing a Dutch Gambit or the Axis invading Spain, then the DiploChit concept isn't required.
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You would think this is a true statement, but its not. I haven't looked at my turn yet, so I'll just deal in generalities (?).The USSR is at anti-tank level 4, giving their troops an advantage even over more experienced troops.Anti-tank tech increases your Tank Attack and Tank Defense factors. There are no tech advances that increase your Soft attack or defense factors.
That means a Army with Anti-Tank Level 4 vs an Army with Anti-Tank Level 0 have exactly the same soft factors, and those are the factors used for "infantry" combat. Its different when Panzers are involved.
You do get a strength point increase because of the tech advance. It allows you to take more damage, but it has very little effect in the attack.
If anyone is interested, I can post the combat factor numbers again. As part of the debate about the effectivness of Panzers and combat in general, a couple of people actually sat down and figured it out. Thats why most experienced players don't bother investing in Heavy Tank nor do they worry much about increasing strength points over 10 (unless the unit is suppossed to be a punching bag).
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August 15, 1943
Army Group Nordic reports that the 15th Army (Ge) has successfully run the Stockholm blockade and has arrived safely in Sweden. Waffen SS Corps has engaged an American Army in the Norway mountains.
Army Group Central and South have advanced into contact with the Russian defensive line, stacked with Shock Armies, with Luft flying support.
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ramboette
Sales background, hmmm.
I understand your point about complaining. I don't agree with you, but its a matter of style. If it works for you, do it. Just consider yourself "scolded" from me.
See 3), since sometimes you get the candy just to shut you up. I prefer to be given the candy store and told to have whatever I want.5) With women, who gets the prize? Those who stay with the plan.
This isn't about the Spanish Gambit. Its because Germany had very good reasons not to invade Spain, that SC doesn't represent. But its also because by Spain joining (either thru Sealion or invasion), you've just lost the Axis minors. That makes no sense. Same with Sweden. The economic benefits of Germany invading Sweden are just too good to pass up. A few of us attempted to solve that by manipulating the hexes, but we can't do that anymore. Having Sweden as a full fledged Axis member isn't right either. Same reasoning behind Turkey.
And by putting DiploChip penalties on certain Gambits (like Dutch or even Rome), you can still allow the Gambit but you have a way to counter it (ie Rome Gambit, Italy falls, but Turkey joins Axis).
You've played boardgames before, so you know as well as I, that there are no perfect rules. Its kinda like the law. As long as you act in the spirit of the rule, you can solve any misunderstanding.
Yes I do. The bid isn't a balancing system, its a handicap system. And the handicap is based on the perception of the relative strengths. Golf is a balanced game is it not? So is SC. But you take a newbie against a golf pro, is the game itself not balanced? Its the same with SC. Why do you think the League has a "normal" bid, a 1:4, a 1:8, etc? Those are not attempts to balance, those are attempts to give replayability so people won't be bored.The best thing for balance is the bid system. Remember, when people didn't even want that?I prefer replayability by having different strategic options available to me and having to plan or react to what my opponent does. Plain vanilla SC isn't that way.
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Jersey John
Welcome to the wonderful world of being in a "niche". Unless its a Xbox or GameBoy or whatever the latest is these days, a wargame will never see a retail shelf in our lifetime. Marketing costs can never be recouped in the product life cycle. I'm not even sure if the money spent on advertising in computer magazines is worth it anymore.... that many, if not most, of the potential customers are unaware that this game exists. ... it's amazing how many of them shrug and say they don't do things through the Internet. It's also amazing how many of them don't read computer magazines and have no inkling of any computer game unless they see it on a shelf.
You're correct, DiploChits don't fix this. If we could fix that problem, then we wouldn't need DiploChits. Remember how when the Dutch Gambit first came out, some people started saying it should be outlawed because it wasn't historical? Eventually we agreed that it was a possibility, but one that wouldn't have been done lightly, because breaking treaties doesn't make your other allies feel very comfortable. DiploChits is an attempt to provide that diplomatic penalty.... one problem that doesn't seem to have been covered is suppose one of the actions bringing Turkey, Sweden or Spain into the war prevents Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria from entering the Axis?Example... Allies decide to do a Dutch Gambit. Axis still have to do thier normal defense and so on. They will lose the plunder. But they have now gained a extra DiploChit (Allies have 1, Axis have 2). Remember we talked about having some way of influencing the neutrals? This is a simplified way. Because now, the Axis are free to invade Sweden and be no worse off than before because of the actions of the Allies in the Low Countries. Assume after France falls, take Norway then Axis ready to take Sweden. Axis tells Allies wants to DoW Sweden. Allies say no, each one burning a DiploChit. Next turn, Axis uses his DiploChit to DoW Sweden.
Assume we follow a more "historical" approach. Poland, then Low Countries, then France. Now the Axis "happy times". Normally Norway, Minors join, then sometime Greece. DiploChits everyone has the same, and the historical invasions are done. During this process, any attempt to hit Ireland or Vichy or Portugal or Spain or Sweden has a political consequence. Not to mention Switzerland.
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JerseyJohn
I understand your original post. You were simply wondering if Mr H would address the issues you laid out. Its just that when those issues get into specifics on how to address it that it concerns me, because we end up drawing conclusions or recommendations from erroneous information. See below. I'd also bring up Iron Rangers conclusions about the Panzer, but I'm too tired to do that now.
Edwin P
You can't use the Norway operation to prove anything regarding amphibious operations. Norway was the equivalent of having a sea unit go to the port, gain control of it, then using the port to land ground troops. Thats not an amphib operation, nor is it something we can do in SC.
JerseyJohn is correct about the seasons. North Sea, North Atlantic and Baltic Sea were not very friendly to naval ships. Between the fog and the rough seas, amphib operations could not be conducted except in a very narrow time frame, and even then, it was not something to be lightly considered. Its the same reasons that carrier operations, like the ones conducted by the US in the Pacific, were not conducted in those same areas. The British carriers had obsolete aircraft because all they needed them for was recon and ASW.
The other thing that has to be solved, is the transport ships sitting offshore until its time to use them. I do it all the time, so does everyone else.
The best solution that someone came up with, was to limit an amphib operation to a specific range. I think it was three or four hexes. Otherwise, it has to return to port. Transporting a unit, from port to port, would work like it does currently, with no limit on how long at sea. It solves every amphib problem we encounter today, not to mention the fantasy "invasions" of Canada and the US. It doesn't solve Norway, but like I mentioned, Norway wasn't a amphib invasion. To reflect that one properly, by sending a German transport unit to the hex outside the Norway port, that should trigger something that makes Norway have some sort of "coup". Then the German unit enters the port, lands in the unoccupied city and just like Sweden, may or may not surrender. The two defenders (though there should only be one), could then act after the fact.
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August 1, 1943
Using midget submarines, borrowed from an Italian design, a penal group of the OKM has launched an attack on a UK BBBG, screening the UK CVBGs. With four (4) bars of experience, the midget subs are almost wiped out (loss 7 str), while inflicting 1 str point of damage.
Army Group Nordic reports that the 21st Army (Ge) has been shattered by the UK naval air and US air. The last of the Russian invaders have been captured, though it appears a few more are ready to land.
Army Group Center probes the Russian defenses in and around the Pripet Marshes.
Army Group South launches a successful rocket attack against Odessa. While there may be terror in the streets, AG South bomb damage assesemtents are inconclusive.
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July 18, 1943
Army Group Nordic reports two (2) Russian Armies remain, reduced to one (1) strenght each. Two (2) Luft units have been shattered by Allied CVBGs and a OKM CABG destroyed.
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I thought we put the combat radius issue of aircraft to rest awhile back? Granted, when Jets (tech level 4) come online, then it should be reduced, regardless of what Long Range tech you have.
Stacking... I love hearing people ask for this. This one deserves its own topic, but I will restate my position from awhile back. As a strategical level game, we have to be careful about what is allowed to stack. In SC currently, two (2) Corps should be allowed to "merge" into one Army, but not allowed to stack together. Look at the soft combat numbers, especially when anti-tank tech starts to kick in. Two (2) Corps will always be stronger on the attack than one (1) Army. No stacking for HQ either, since they are in effect a Corps all by themselves, just one that cannot attack. Naval? Well naval has problems that stacking won't solve. Air? Good case can be made for the ability to stack these with other ground units (Corp or Army or HQ). Thats another topic though.
Siberian Transfer... I'm holding my comments until the thread that was started outlining the problem is finished. I don't believe it is, since I haven't seen any additional posts in it.
Panzer problem... There is an old topic or two that covers the problems. If someone wants it, ask and I will summarize the issues in a new topic.
[ August 23, 2003, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]
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I'm not going to list the names of the people I'm responding to, since some of the comments are the same.
Allies controlling the nations that Axis can DoW on... The only three (3) nations that are effected by this are Spain, Sweden and Turkey. Its not really necessary for me to list why those three are a problem in SC is it?
Hack an editor... Thats not ethical. Even if someone did it, no matter how badly we could use it, I would be one of the first stating that the person should be banned. Hacking a retail product is equivalent to intellectual rape. The offer to produce a unit editor for SC has been made twice by myself. If given permission, it could be produced kinda like a shareware product, nothing fancy, but it will get the job done.
Impossible for Axis to attack Spain, Sweden, Turkey... That would be correct for either side. But it also opens up the diplomatic side of strategy, since not contesting it, gives you a DiploChit (aka DiploCard) advantage you can use later, as was pointed out. Now, Allies invading the Low Countries, Ireland and Portugal have diplomatic consequences, as they should. You need a three (3) DiploChit advantage, so unless Germany has invaded Sweden AND Spain, no way Turkey can be brought in until '43.
Low Countries .... Excellent point. By giving a DiploChit to Germany, it now has the diplomatic penalties everyone has always complained about, in addition to the US readiness drop of a few months.
Turkey .... Unless you know something I don't, no one DoWs on Turkey until after Russia is in the war. Same reasoning that would force Turkey into the Allied fold would be just as much of a reason to force Russia to get ready for war faster.
Other nations ... You don't gain or lose DiploChits against any other nations. So the historical invasions or lack have no effect.
bitching against Battlefront or Mr H. Its kind of pointless. They are running a business making business decisions based on information we are not privy to. We can critize the decision(s), but after that, accept it for what it is and move on by dealing with it. When they are ready to give us SC 2 information, they will tell us. Constantly asking them for it doesn't do any good. I don't think anyone here wants a Unit Editor worse than I do, since its gotten to the point I can't stomach playing SC anymore without limits. And my carrier tolerance is just about gone. But until we are given the ok to produce an editor, we either make do with what we have or use House Rules.
I know I am not the only one, they may just be part of the silent lurkers out there. When gamers are unhappy with what they are playing, they change the rules. We can't change the software code in SC, but we can sure be creative about how those rules are used.
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Good post.
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July 4, 1943
Army Group Nordic reports that the four (4) Russian Armies have been reduced to strengths of 4, 2, 1 and 5 in return for light losses.
Gibralter is abandoned by the French mercenaries. The Mediterrian is now closed to the Allies. The French mercs on Malta strike at the innocent civilians of Tripoli. We suggest they fly away to IndoChina.
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There are three (3) neutrals, that have a major effect on the way SC plays. Spain, Sweden and Turkey. For reasons that have been discussed, they don't work properly in SC. Since it appears we will have no more patches and adding one dimensional House Rules doesn't give alot of flexibility, how about this.
Lets design a optional Diplomacy rule that we can currently use in SC to determine what actions the majors take regarding these minors.
This is just the rough concept to give you an idea of what I was thinking.
DiploChits
Beginning of each year, Germany gets one (1) Diplomatic chit (DiploChit), as well as the UK. In the case of the three (3) neutrals mentioned above, any DoW against one of them requires you to use a DiploChit. You announce it to your opponent, since he can counter by using his DiploChit. If you combine the ability to force your opponent to DoW on one of those neutrals, say if you have three (3) DiploChits, then taking action against Sweden, Spain or Turkey has diplomatic consequences, just like real life.
So if Germany wanted to invade Spain, and UK wanted to prevent it, they both burn one DiploChit each.
Germany wants to invade Sweden it would cost a DiploChit.
UK doesn't counter any of these actions, then in a few years, it can "force" the Axis to DoW against Turkey (making them Allied), since it has enough DiploChits and Germany doesn't have enough to counter.
This would reflect the real possiblity that if Germany hit Sweden and Spain, Turkey would be concerned about its own "neutraility" and would side with Russia.
Vichy France is a tough one. I think in this case, that Germany can DoW against them if they want, but UK gets a DiploChit as a bonus. Ireland or Portugal getting invaded by Allies gives Germany a DiploChit.
A simple manual Diplomacy system that adds some real strategical thought to the actions we take. Boardgamers use optional rules like this all the time to increase the playability of thier favorite games. Why not us, especially since we can expect no patch in the near future? There is enough brain power on this forum (though some of it appears to be naturally or chemically altered) to come up with something better than the above in the meantime.
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Liam
Your statement about the 109s being outdated by certain allied aircraft are somewhat controversial. The responses and comparision would be best as a topic by themselves if anyone is interested. The easiest way would be to post the various ratings those aircraft have been assigned and then compare them to each other. You will see some very revealing things. For example, granted that the P-51 was a great fighter, but its main advantage was its range. Fighter to fighter, certain models of the Fw-190s could hold thier own against a P-51, assuming pilot skill is equal, which by then it wasn't.
One of the reasons thier was reluctance to persue Jet aircraft was its short range and it was a fuel hog. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, SC doesn't really reflect these truths. Allies (US/UK) needed range to support the bombers and Axis had fuel problems. Not until the bombers were over Germany was it feasible to consider using Jets, but then other problems prevented that solution.
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Anyone want to make a bet how long it takes before someone has a House Rule that states "Allies cannot DoW Spain"?
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Thank you Mr B. That description I understood.
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My understanding has been that the German atomic energy program was for development of a alternative energy source, not as a weapons program. Along with the synthetic oil, it was an attempt to be self-sufficient since the British Royal Navy had the ability to cut off Germanies oil supply.
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BK6583
I realize that this isn't what you want to hear, but you do have the ability to influence the units that are attached to a HQ, because you control how close they are to that HQ.
The HQs and the influence they have on units is pretty straightforward, but there are quite a few people here who would be happy to answer any questions you may have.
There is a lot to absorb in SC. Its one of those "easy to learn, difficult to master" type of things. One of the most common newbie mistakes, is to think this is some sort of Axis and Allies type game, and not appreciate the subtle effects that terrain, readiness and supply have on units.
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June 20, 1943
Luft announces that it has put into production the Me-262 Fighter/Bomber. Designed as a multi-role aircraft, it will replace the functions of the Bf-109, Fw-190 and Ju-87. Its almost immiediatly put to use by AG Nordic.
AG Nordic reports that the 9th Army (Ge) no longer exists. Due to the sacrifice of the valiant U-boats in Stockholm port, the port was able to remain open, allowing the 20th Army (Ge) to disembark north of Stockholm and engage the Russians occupying some of the mines. 12th Army, moving in from Norway, engages the Russians southwest of Stockholm.
Army Group Southwest takes surrender of the last Spanish forces on the continent. Spain has fallen. Gibralter is assaulted, but holds.
Italian submarine pack sinks British merchant ships in the Med (5 MPPs).
Turkey has been given its last warning. The next notice will be by force of arms. The strategic importance of Turkey, in that it gives the Axis a port in the Black Sea (?), threatens the soft underbelly of Russia, forcing them to commit troops to a possible amphib invasion along the lengthy coastline. The mountainious terrain of Turkey provides a natural barrier preventing the Russians from exploiting the new front.
[ August 22, 2003, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]
We Know v1.07 is the last, but . . .
in Strategic Command 1
Posted
Edwin P
Good point about that North Sea transit hex. Forgot all about it.