Terif

Well - counterattacks/offensives of the Russians and Britains were the reason for those high allied losses... A counterattack at Kharkov and therefore leaving the fortification lines would have caused perhaps a few german deaths, but also have lead to total destruction of the russian forces and pretty much game over for Allies (as Liam had to experience during various tries in different wars when he launched such counterattacks at Kharkov ), especially since the West is at the moment no real threat

...and allied forces the rest of the world

Meanwhile the land battles where not less exciting: It began with the now famous battle of Scandinavia in Summer 1941 – Allied forces assaulted Sweden without provocation...but in anticipation of the allied cruelty, Germany already prepared strong forces to counter this affront: In one of the largest combined naval-air-land battles the UK forces got completely annihilated – not a single soldier escaped the slaughter after both norwegian evacuation ports got bombed out of order by german and italian bombers: O´Connor, tank, 2 armies and countless corps surrendered to the axis liberators of Scandinavia – two third of the british airforce got destroyed. In Russia things were in the meantime more or less peaceful except for several small battles around Minsk and Romania when Russian forces tried to use the situation with the axis forces busy in Scandinavia for their own offensives in those areas...axis guard forces teached them this was a bad idea and so they had to retreat with some bloody noses... One year later after the situation in Scandinavia was cleared, Leningrad and the western part of Russia conquered, Axis main forces concentrated for the upcoming decissive battle in Russia...during the last months Russia had plenty of time to build a gigantic fortification system around Kharkov, several hundred miles deep with everything a soldiers heart can desire...4 russian lv 2 tanks...except for the front troops in the southern fortifications, armies and corps with Infantry Weapons 3...airsupport and several HQs for command behind the lines out of axis air range: Finally in July 1942 Axis high command gave the attack orders – careful preparations and reconnaissance flights paid off...the battle ended in the complete annihilation of the russian fortification system and half of their total forces destroyed or captured. The amazing thing: Axis losses during this battle: not one single unit ! We are now in August 1942 – Rostov, Vologda and Gorky have been conquered. Total land losses so far: Axis – 3 german land units Allies – 63 land units

Just playing another AAR worthy game against Liam with great battles in various places : The war in the West is played mainly in the water and the Battle of the Atlantic was quite historical in 1940/41 – nearly every turn german or italian subs were raiding somewhere....steadily changing positions not to be discovered....hunted by Royal and later also US navy...but until end of 1941 without success...no Wolfpack lost till then, thousands of merchant ships sunk... At Christmas 1941 italian subs were the first ones lost and the threat of allied cruisers and carriers became finally real – resulting in new orders to the axis fleets: Capital ships now had to leave port in order to protect the wolfpacks and escort them home whenever they got damaged or caught in battle against allied sub hunters....starting a series of open naval battles around the convoy lanes and several medium sized skirmishes all around the Atlantic between both surface fleets... We are now in August 1941 – naval losses so far: Axis: Graf Spee, italian subs and one german wolfpack – Axis shipyards from Portugal till Norway busy 24/7 repairing damaged ships coming in every day while german ports working to capacity building new subs... Allies: 1 carrier, 4 battleships, 3 cruisers...the other 3 allied carriers also lost already more than 20 strength points and got repaired several times, most of the remaining allied ships also heavily damaged, 3 of them only barely survived at str 1 : Italian wolfpack, unexperienced in sub warfare gets caught by allied sub hunters and sunk not much later – first naval loss of the war for Axis: Battlegroups Bismarck, Graf Spee and the italian fleet give cover to a retreating german wolfpack in the middle of the Atlantic: Skirmish around Faroer Islands between german escorts and the british home fleet: Last battle of Graf Spee – first loss of an Axis capital ship at all during the battle of Rio de la Plata: Because both sides are still fighting for the Atlantic and the convoy lanes, on the ground there were no battles so far (also because UK still had to recover from the scandinavian adventure – see below): [ October 06, 2007, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Time for battle - turn on ICQ when you are ready

Seems you are back from retirement Ready to fill up till your 100th defeat - since you already collected 83 there are only 17 left to go... [ October 02, 2007, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

There is no risk involved at all with a LC turn 2 attack : Turn 1: - German corps with motorization operates to the danish border to take Copenhagen next turn - northern tank+army operate to LC border - Königsberg army transports to LC - both airfleets in the east move west and stay in range of Kopenhagen - Rundstedt and his troops destroy the polish corps in front of them, the tank reaches Warsaw Turn 2: - Denmark is conquered: success rate 100% (defender str 3, you have 3 airfleets that have expected damage of 2 each when you support them with a HQ (don´t forget to use auto-assist for your HQs) - LC is conquered: success rate ~98% (1 AF, tank, 2 armies, upgraded corps to attack LC and a normal corps ready to occupy Brussel...) - In Poland the defenders around Warsaw will be destroyed and 3 tiles around the capital occupied Turn 3: - Warsaw falls: success rate 100% - the first french army gets destroyed, german forces enter France. In the following turns the original LC forces can kill a french army each turn, if you want to fasten the process up, Germany can operate some of the polish forces west. Usually several of my armies/tank move westwards by feet to save operating costs - France is very unlikely to fall before the winter unless Allies make an aggressive counterattack or make the mistake to defend at the border - additional german forces don´t really speed that up so they can walk instead of taking the train. Nevertheless taking Poland first and marching west also has its advantages, especially if Axis have chosen to follow the historical approach as this delayed attack on LC reduces the allied mpps (readiness increase comes later).

@Col. Gen. Guderian: - if Germany attacks Low Countries in turn 2, then they will be standing in front of Paris until Christmas 1939. They only have to wait till winter is over and at least mud sets in to conquer Paris. So sometimes Paris falls in February 40, usually in April . Even if Germany concentrates on Poland first, it will take LC around Christmas 1939 and since in that case firepower is much more concentrated will also reach Paris around April/May 1940 so it will fall maybe a month later or so than with an early LC attack. BTW: every experienced player conquers France in this time frame, this is not limited to me only . - If Germany doesn´t invest chits into Spain (or Romania+Hungary), then Allies will most likely do it and this means that the minors (Romania+Hungary) will not join Axis any more (Spain <40%). So it is a must do unless you trust in your luck or the lazyness of your opponent...but usually you will then loose your allies . Investing in Spain may cost Germany some mpps, but has the advantage that it either forces UK to invest also 5 chits in Spain or if UK doesn´t, then Spain joins Axis which gives them much more troops/ressources than those few mpps for diplo chits. - North Africa: Only italians will never be able to hold off UK forces. If Germany doesn´t send troops + HQ, then Africa goes latest in 1941 to UK. But the question is in deed always if you as Axis are willing to send those troops or if you prefer to use them in Russia instead. Both options have their advantages and disadvantages.

Actually...this has been tested via Beta-versions - already in SC1 days . Coding is not the problem, but when ships can´t harm land/air units at the coast any more the effect is simply that invasions will be blocked since the land/air units have nothing to fear when they are standing at the coast and invasions can be made impossible - in other words this has a devastating effect on playability. Even more so as then ground/air units can do a lot of unhistorical/unlogical things without beeing punished for it by beeing bombarded from sea... Besides, like Liam already said: the naval units need a function. If they can´t do damage they are simply useless and the (naval-) war would become pretty boring . Btw, ships bombarding units at the coast is nothing to worry about - just don´t place your units at the coast, especially if they are already damaged (which is pretty much the only way you can get them killed by naval bombardment...) . It is even realistic that if you place half dead units directly at the coast, inviting the battleships out there to shoot them that they get actually bombed out of order . In history it has a reason why airfields etc didn´t get built in bombardment range (and when they did they got bombarded..) - so if you as leader of your nation now decide to make this mistake, then you can´t complain about the inevitable result . In the end the crucial thing is simply to use the own units in the right way and the current system encourages you to do so - if you do not, you pay the price in form of lost mpps. P.S.: After your first 1-2 multiplayer games you should have learned to keep your units away from direct water contact and then this whole discussion is pretty much redundant - like the discussions concerning this topic during the last years all proved... . [ September 30, 2007, 04:04 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

As foko said: Don´t move your army transport through a storm (move from coast to coast), then this can´t happen cause the army will have expected losses of 4, the corps has only strength 3 which means success probability to conquer Norway in one turn is 100% .

When France has fallen (standard April-May 1940) you can use the plunder to buy the missing research chits for 750 mpps (first thing is usually to buy all diplo chits) - often the plunder is enough to build already your first new units. After this Germany starts building units. Axis have no mpps problem as long as they avoid doing beginner mistakes like attacking ships in 1940/41 with airfleets, doing naval battles and repair the own ships, researching+upgrading the italian navy , placing units at the coast so the enemy can bombard them or operating unnecessarily around . P.S.: you can try to go for naval superiority, but this makes only sense if you can do a Sealion, otherwise you will have a problem as all those ressources you spent for your anti-ship combat will be missing in Russia and when you get no compensation in the west by conquering England. Against a beginner you can get through with a lot of things, but against a good allied player it won´t work in any case. [ September 28, 2007, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

- since you already got a mega-hit in Spain: put in 5 german chits + 3 italian ones and it will join nearly for sure now (P.S.: if you want something, never put only one chit into it ). Don´t attack Vichy France before Spain has joined. - Africa: either you ignore it and use all troops against Russia, or you send the proper forces to be able to conquer it: i.e. german HQ + minimum 4 land units (via Italy - the italian navy clears the seapath for them to Africa). If UK defends Egypt then send another 2 armies/tanks (or more if necessary) and your airfleets. Then you can conquer Africa + Middle East till long before Barbarossa - the forces you sent are needed to protect Middle East against the Russians anyway except for the airfleets, which means they will be missing for Barbarossa in any case if you go for Africa (that´s why ignoring Africa is also an option).

Next game with changed sides - Liam Allies: Aggressive axis approach – Vichy France, Spain and Africa conquered during 1940 which results in strong allied forces at Barbarossa time. After beeing forced out of Egypt, Allies conquer Sweden from Norway. Denmark is fortified and defended, the port guarded by german battleships – so no breakthrough of the allied navy into Baltic . Russian land forces are superior in tech during 1941 (Russia IW3 vs Germany IW2) and decide to make a full defence at Kharkov: Russian forces including tanks and airfleets are standing in a 3 tiles deep row behind river and city Kharkov to await the german invaders.... End of Summer 1941 the all decisive battle starts with the bulk of both forces standing face to face at the river line: In preparation of the largest encirclement battle the world has ever seen, german Heeresgruppe Nord already conquered the only lightly defended Leningrad and Moskow while Heeresgruppe Süd with all the heavy forces and advanced tanks moved into launch position. Heeresgruppe Kaukasus standing ready to approach by command the russian oilfields in the area.... And so the coordinated assault began...after heavy airstrikes and fortress buster bombing raids, fast german tank units break through the russian fortification line south of Kharkov while light corps units attack from Moskow towards Voronezh to encircle the russian troops...before the russian forces can realize what is happening, german paratroopers jump behind the line towards Rostov...destroying supply lines + depots and cutting of the russian forces (including all russian tanks) around the mines from leadership and communication with their headquarter... Simultaneously german forces enter Caucasus, destroying russian oilfields around Baku....forcing russian units to operate away from the crucial battle around Kharkov. The result of this gigantic encirclement battle is devastating for Russia: After beeing cut off for several weeks, 5 million russian soldiers surrender and go into PoW camps...approximately 75% of the russian total forces have been annihilated or taken prisoner...all heavy equipment lost to the advancing axis forces . After this battle where Russia lost in a matter of only a few months all its hopes, the rest was only clean-up for the german forces: during Summer 1942 all of Russia from Archangelsk till Stalingrad including Caucasus gets occupied without much resistance...wherever a few armies or corps appear they get crushed without mercy or surrender of their own as they recognize the hopelesness of their situation. In front of Urals at the last 2 cities before the mountains - Kazan and Kuybyshev that have been heavily fortified - Russia makes its last stand and in the second huge battle of this war they loose the rest of their units in August 1942: over a dozen armies, tanks and countless corps get destroyed as well as both russian airfleets in this last big slaughter. Meanwhile in the west Allies landed at Brest in the beginning of 1942 with all their forces...german units building a cage around them from Bordeaux via Paris till the channel coast...within the cage US and UK units running around like wild chicken while beeing decimated...4 carriers and lots of allied airunits flying uncoordinated attacks, not supporting their ground forces...so each turn 2 allied armies or corps bump into the electric fence around them and get toasted...no losses on axis side so far... September 1942: Russia is about to collapse – only 3 damaged HQs and 3 combat units left...german units 3 tiles before the last russian capital Sverdlovsk...the next 2 allied units got toasted in front of Bordeaux.....Allies surrender unconditionally September 27, 1942 .

September 20, 1942: Allied forces approach in large numbers mainland Germany and enter the undefended Italy....in that last stage of the war Axis seem to possess more aircraft units than frontline ground units ...when british forces are only a few miles away from Berlin, Liam who has been forced by earlier airstrikes in his Führer Bunker finally signs the unconditional surrender. Allied victory, the war is over

Strategic Command 2 I am only playing SC2 now - much more strategical options and possibilites than in SC1 with better longterm opportunities to turn the tide and when you got used to the tiles it also plays fluid and intuitively .

When you click on the city you see how many mpps you get from it - without a connection to an own major capital it can only have max 5 strength (=5 mpps for normal cities, 10 mpps for capitals), with connection it goes up to 8 for conquered ones and 10 for liberated/joined cities. Whenever you have (re-)established a friendly controlled hex path you can build units in the city - so you can e.g. move your garrison unit from a cut off city to reestablish the connection and then you can build a new unit in the city (and/or operate new units to it).

Yep - having less tech has also its advantages as this results in mass unit production instead September 13, 1942: Russian anti-air at Voronezh is in frenzy, shooting down axis plane after plane when the 10 air units attack...even destroying an entire romanian airfleet daring to enter the death zone....half a dozen german ground units only manage to kill one single corps in the outskirts of the city suffering heavy losses during the venture...in return a german army gets destroyed. Russian offensive from Odessa towards Kharkov/mines. Elsewhere...Iraq and Vichy France get liberated as well as french mine and Valencia in Spain...Portugal connected to Paris...Madrid and Bilbao under heavy attacks, both cities and port bombed to ruins...no supply or reinforcements for the defenders any more...first combat in Morocco when US battleships open fire against Tangier.

You can still find all the SC2 updates at Panzerliga for download (1.06 at the bottom of the page) : Panzerliga - Updates

Yeah – Russians didn´t have the intention to march into their disaster – attacking during clear summer turns against in the meantime 10 axis air units is usually a pretty bad idea...better to wait till fall when the enemy air is grounded and can be simply overrun . Besides – Russians were busy in Middle East: just conquered Iran again, Baghdad is empty with only one last german army next to it and should fall next turn...German and italian forces get killed without supply in the region . Simultaneously Western Allies liberate France and Portugal via amphibious landings – Spain now gets entered from both sides... At the same time Axis launch their offensive against Voronezh – their 10 air units wreak havoc amongst the defenders, 2 of them lost including the engineers once again – but also 2 german armies killed in return...this combat week in total 5 german units bite the dust vs 4 russian ones....bloody war

August 1942: Seems Liam has overcome his rookie phase...:-D: - He stopped sending units on kamikaze mission against Hamburg and instead established a containment area around it with half a dozen units in their fortifications guarding the UK task force there (HQ, tank, 2 armies, 2 corps + air). - at Moskow the axis air and land forces finally start coordinating their attacks. So after Axis is now using combined arms, Russia can´t afford any more to fight in the open fields around Moskow and instead retreats back into the northern forests at Vologda and return to guerrilla tactics during the clear summer turns - Moskow falls to the enemy. Only in Western France Allies are advancing – conquering Bordeaux, destroying 3 axis fortifications in the area and cutting off Spain. Russian forces enter Iran again after bomber raids destroyed the enemy infrastructure in the area so Axis can´t reinforce or operate new troops in.

June/July 1942: Both sides retreat from the first Battle of Moskow to lick their wounds - pretty equal losses on both sides despite Axis beeing supported by 8 airfleets + italian bomber and having IW3 vs IW1 on the russian side . But now within 2 turns Russia finally catched up in Infantry weapons and is just using the cease fire to upgrade its forces to full tech level . Iran has finally fallen into enemy hands after the defending paratroopers received no more reinforcements - too many german IW 3 units made it too expensive, so the russians left the country to its fate. On the bright side Russian forces liberated Odessa and both mines at Kharkov - with one of it just fallen back to an italian army. Heavy battles around Hamburg - every turn a german army bites the dust...so far no total losses for UK . US forces under Eisenhower land via the conquered Brest in large numbers.

The bloody Battle of Moskow has started with heavy german airstrikes...russian army and 2 corps destroyed...Russians strike back: 2 german tanks annihilated as well as an army at Kharkov....romanian airfleet under attack..in a pincer movement russian forces approach Kharkov and mines from the south, another task group attacks at the north from Leningrad towards Minsk into the open axis flank...trying to reach the german air there behind the frontline and to cut off the german forces in front of Moskov :

We are now in May 1942: In the west the italian fleet is history after a last heroic battle at Brest and in the Atlantic. Only one cruiser is left guarding Malta – one last battleship is surrounded in the middle of the Atlantic and will be destroyed next turn as reminder for the italian admirality never to mess with the allied navy again . Nevertheless these naval battles prevented the allied navy from supporting the Brest offensive, so the city is still italian held – but should fall now next turn. Further east the offensive with UK tanks and armies from Denmark is more successful: Hamburg conquered, 2 german armies and a corps destroyed in the last couple of turns there. Yugoslavian partisans took back their capital and liberated the country half a year ago – after holding it through the winter Axis now reconquered it and subjugated the country again. Iran is still successfully defended by russian paratroopers. In the east Axis was approaching Moskow with light skirmishes during the winter...now Axis have the first clear weather turn and the Battle of Moskov is about to start...Russian defences are prepared, with heavy tank forces ready behind the frontline to strike back at the right moment . Older Screenshot:

Yep, Axis advanced unusually fast in Russia and were also able to throw the russians out of Middle East despite heavy forces there. But without combat techs the russian units were only cannon fodder - russian scientists were on strike for 2 years despite now 5 chits in IW - we are now in 1942 and still only IW1, AT1, HT1 for Russia . It also helped Axis a lot in this war to concentrate their forces on only 2 points to reach their goals: One strong task group with Paras, several armies, half a dozen corps and heavy airsupport of half the axis airforce cleared the Iranian mountains from russian armies and tanks in heavy battles...despite the lack of combat techs russian units stroke back, having heavy losses themselves, but destroying several axis units before they had to retreat back into Russia...Tehran is still hold by russian paratroopers . The other axis task group with the second half of the axis airforce, all german tanks and heavy armies attacked Kharkov and mines directly, overrunning also an engineer unit fortifying the river line... But this came at a cost for Axis: since every available unit was concentrated at Kharkov and Iran there were no forces left for other areas and so Allies started to collect these places one after the other : - UK took Sweden from Norway as well as liberated Denmark - Russia conquered Finland to use its ressources for its defence efforts - USA occupied Ireland as base for its troops and airfleet transfer point and is just jumping on the continent, laying siege to Brest... ...and at Brest the last naval battle of this war just started in February 1942: the entire italian fleet attacks to clear a path for a new (now italian) defender of Brest – the hungarian corps nevertheless gets sunk by US cruisers on its way back. The german Kriegsmarine is already completely at the bottom of the Baltic since half a year Due to the lack of tech, Russian forces implemented for its defence guerilla war tactics against the german Blitzkrieg instead of massive frontlines...destroying several german units that moved too fast forward...including a lone cut off german corps that tried to connect Finland east of Leningrad....the depth of the russian territories were the best defence in 1941....now in 1942 lots of russian units are arriving from the production queue and also Siberians arrived, so there will be seen a return to more massive battles...so far Axis only were able to conquer the 4 front cities and Kharkov with its mines despite massive superiority in numbers and tech . Here an older Screenshot from the conquest of Kharkov (the corps at Smolensk got destroyed, city still russian - tank at Rostov also had to retreat):

@Iron Ranger: Sorry, doesn´t work - disbanded units have to be built at 100% cost, not 60% . Only if a unit gets destroyed in combat with supply >=5 you can buy it back at reduced costs (which btw is still more expensive than just reinforcing it).