laxx

just to close the loop on Sharpshooters and russian tanks. tested 3 platoons of russian light tanks: t-60/t-70 of the 1943 variety of tanks. used about 6 veteran sharpshooters in ambush locations. the t-60/70 are only manned by 2 persons (driver, turret TC/gunner). once the TC is shot, the whole tank is "shaken" and remain that way for the duration of the whole game. also, if there is no visable threats, the shocked tank remains static and does not move at all. that way, i was able to finish off the 3 regular platoons with my sharpshooters. too bad the t-60/70 cost as much as a sharpshooter.

bwahahahah! i'm for it.

same scenario as above, except for: - Sharpshooters instead of ATR - Use Trucks to transport troops to location Sharpshooters. I suspect Sharpshooters can cause the russian tanks to go into shock, when the Tank Commander is shot. Very often, once the hatch is closed, you can hear the cussing in russian, and the tank will stop moving for at least 10-20 seconds. I used half-tracks, trucks and Gun tracker. Trucks are the fastest But you will need 3 trucks to move the 2 antitank squads (2 x sshooter, 2 x thunters, 2 x flammers). during setup phase, embark, click vehicle waypoint, click troop waypoint (where to go once disembark), click go. It is possible for short distances, the trucks can reach the destination, disembark the troops and the troops start running to ambush locations. Allinall, in 3 turns, my troops where hidded and waiting for the tanks, the trucks went off and remains hidden. cheers!

Infantry vs. Russian Tanks --------------------- Scenario: 400x400 map, meeting engagement.Village, Modest trees. Roads leads from Russian portion into the middle of the village (victory flag) Russian: Regular 2 x t-34s, 1 x KV-1(total points: 333) German: Veteran 2 squads each with 1xflammer, 1xtankhunter, 1xATR(total points: 114) Intended purpose of squad members: - ATR - Achieve Hatch down of Russian tanks - Tankhunter - Kill the tanks or disable the tanks - Flammers - Kill immobile tanks and/or backup for tankhunter when out of ammo I put rushed the squads into 2 locations away from the Victory Flag (VF), one nearer to the russian region and the other nearer the german region. My guesstimate is that the russian tanks will move via along the road to the VF. I position the 1st squad into houses with covering arc: ATR, Flammer and tankhunter. After round 2, T-34 spots ATRs and machine guns ATR. Tankhunter took advantage and kills T-34. Round 3, second T-34 apprears, backs off from the road and tries to flank around the houses. Round 4, KV-1 appears along the road, Tankhunters throws last mine, KV is immobile, Flammer from Squad 1, flames the bastards and KV dies. Round 4 or 5 (i forget), second T-34 targets 2nd ATR, and ATR dies. 2nd Tankhunter finishes T-34. End of Game. 3 tanks splashed. 1 axis killed (ATR). Observation ---------- - ATR is pretty lame against heavy armor. I am considering replacing ATR with Sharpshooter. But (11points vs 25 points) is something to consider. - Tank hunter runs out of ammo pretty fast. Max is 2 heavy tanks but just barely. Next step. -------- - will try with sharpshooters - will see if the anti-squad can fit into a half-track for rapid deployment. cheers!

most interesting. thanks! anyone with experience with stuG shortnose against T-34s or KVs in CMBB ?

this is quite funny as there is another thread in Tips Section on 1941 German tank tactics against Russian tanks.......

hi, was out of town for a couple of daze. *but* i had a chance to test out infantry vs tanks. comments: - chad: actually, only in June 1942 did the Germans have good anti-KV/T34 armor: Marder series with 75 Long "nose", Panzer IV F2 and IV G series with 75 Long nose. That is actually one full year before they had decent anti-KV tanks. I did a test along the same lines as Tripps. Found similar conclusion, a couple of things to add: Panzerwurfmine is *really* great, usually one or two would kill the KV-1 tank. I tried with Molotov cocktail, those weren't so successful, sort of splatted all over. I had a couple of frontal penetrations via 03 ATRifle but it did not kill the T-34s. nor did it damage the KV. Lastly I tested Flamethrowers against the T-34s. Those are deadly. I had two flammers flanking the T-34s, after a while the T-34 exploded. More Tests to Follow: ------------------- german: 2 anti-tank group each comprising of 1xflammer, 1xatr and 1xtankhunter group. russian: KV-1 and T-34s map: an ambush at the victory flags, troops hidden in the woods. watch this space.

Was reading an article in the October edition of WWII magazine (same guys who came up with Military History". there was an interview with a german 109E ace, he received the iron cross with oaks and diamonds. in the interview, he said that by mid-1944, in a conversation with hitler, hitler admitted that "militarily the war is lost", however, hitler's plans was to delay and stall the allies as he anticipated that Russia would conflict with the west . my 2 cents worth.

I actually like to mess around with different types of weapons and armies from different nations. * cough cough * korea

gonna change the topic to "1941 german Tactics against Russian Tanks" [ November 12, 2002, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: laxx ]

Conclusion for 1941 availability ------------------------- - Doan try 1941 armor against KVs. Best hope if track damage at close range and massed armor. - T-34s are quite well armored in the front. Panzer IIIs are no match for the 75/76 gun the T-34 has. Best hope is back and side shot. - Panzer IVs and StuGs are best for infantry support. Useful for light tanks. Next Step: --------- - Infantry vs Soviet Armor - Various Arty against Soviet Armor. watch this space. [ November 12, 2002, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: laxx ]

I created a "clinical" experiment yesterday, with June 1941 availability: - KVs - T26 - T34s All 0 smoke, 0 AP, 0 HE All Regulars versus - 38(t) - Panzer III(50m/L42 or L48) - Panzer IV(only L/24 versions available) - Panzer II - StuG L/24 versions All Vets Well, needless to say. All short nose tanks (StuG and Panzer IV) are best used for anti-personnel purposes. At 200 metres, they weren't accurate at all. At 50 to 90 metres, they did nothing to the KVs. I had better success with Panzer IIIs, they knocked out the T-26, T-34 (repeated flank/back shots). At 90 - 200 metres, they did not have any impact on KVs. At point blank, all but one of the KVs shrugged the shots off. One KV became immobile due to track damage, this after 4 panzer III shot repeatedly at point blank. The crew bailed out after a while. [ November 12, 2002, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: laxx ]

My $0.02 worth: Korean War ---------- - Lots of countries involved (including Aussies, South Koreans, Gurkhas, Brits, Canadians etc) - Get to play chinese/korean (or against) - Pit Soviet Style weapons against Western Arms. (more interesting IMO than WWI weapons: maxims and single bolt rifles). Lots of Flame throwers - lots of hills, mountains and interesting terrains. - limited use of helicopters(may be LESS difficult to engineer into the game than Vietnam) - Like an earlier poster, the last true war.

hi, also found this in http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/4635/tanks/intro_russian_tanks.htm most interesting

tripps, you are right, http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/4635/tanks/kv1/kv1.htm I am quoting verbatim from the above: Quote On: KVs in action ----------- While many crews were unexperienced with the new tank, some were able to make the German to pay a heavy price for their advance. Here they are some accounts: Extracts from Thomas Jentz's "Panzertruppen", vol. 1 (posted on the Tanker's Forum by Dr. Leo Niehorster) 6. Panzer-Division war diary, 25 June 41 "Unfortunately, the Russian 52 ton heavy tanks showed that it was almost insensitive to hits from the 10.5cm [field howitzer]. Several hits from a 15cm [field howitzer] were ineffective and bounced off. " "... a Russian heavy tank had blocked the communications route ... An 8.8cm Flak battery was sent up by the commander to fight this tank. It was just as unseccessful as the 10.5cm battery whose fire was directed by a forward observer. In addition, an attempt by a Pionier assault troop using balled explosives failed. It was impossible to get close to the tank because of heavy machine gun fire." 3. Panzer-Division war diary, 10 Jan 42 "It is noteworthy that the Pz-III ... hit a T34 tank driving along the village street at a range of about 20 meters and four times at a range of 50 meters with 5cm Pzgr 40 without observing any effect." 12. Panzer-Division war diary, 30 March 42 "... encountered a 52 ton tank and a T34. Under the covering fire from one Panzer, the other pair circled to the left and from a range of 50 to 80 meters opened fire on the enemy tanks. All three Pz-IV scored hits that showed no effect other than on the enemy morale.... the 53 ton ton tank drove off at high speed ... the T34 followed him." Hit over 30(!) times only on the turret side (without any sign of penetration), this KV model 1940 (with F-32 gun, 39 calibres long) was finished by side hit by an 88 The only way the Germans were able to achieve successes against the heavies in the early months was 1. by concentrating the fire of many tanks, in some cases an entire battalion (!) at ranges of 100 meters or less, which in many cases only caused damage. 2. by maneouvering to the flanks and rear and opening fire at ranges of 50 meters or less, which in many cases again only caused immobilization. 3. by coordinated fire on the tanks of all weapons, (which destroyed or separated the enemy infantry). Infantry and pioneers would then climb up on isolated or immobilzed enemy tanks and apply bundled stick grenades to less impervious areas, such as turret overhangs, etc. 4. repeated non-damaging hits which caused the enemy crews to abandon their vehicles because of the noise and concussion. On 19 August 1941, a platoon of four KV-1s of the 1st Tank Division succesfully ambushed a German tank column advancing near the Voiskovitsy collective farm near Leningrad. The platoon leader, Sr. Lt. Zinoviy Kolobanov, knocked out the two lead tanks in the column. The following tanks apparently did not relize what had happened and continued to move forward. Kolobanov's platoon moved into the midst of German battalion and, in the melee that followed, Kolobanov destroyed 22 German tanks, ramming at least one in the process. His tank was hit 135(!) times during the firefight. The other three KVs destroyed a total of 16 other tanks. Kolobanov's feat made him the second highest ranking Soviet tank ace of the war.

Hi Eden, do a search in this section for tophat or lowsky. it is described better and in detail. But essentially what you described is correct. I might add that scoot and shoot is quite good to execute this movement. The Shoot part will be able to Reverse as well. Icame up with the following based on what I have read so far on this most-excellent forum, please critique: If you have weak armoured tanks or tanks without good blast values: versus Numerically superior tanks --------------------------- - ambush for flanks shots - kill tank commanders with sharpshooters versus Numerically lesser tanks ------------------------- - Bum Rush - tophat/lowsky - ambush for flanks Other rules: ---------- - hull down - Work in Pairs or More - Guess your opponents approach - Distract with PIAT / Shreks ** - pay attention to statistics, RoT, Armour, Length - Stick to edges of the map - use Fast/Hunt rather than Move (walking speed)

86smopuim , *sigh* i am trying to capture the initial barbarossa atmosphere: back in 1941, panzer III and IVs (the short nose) version went up against the bulk of the russian army. The III had L/45 while the IVs were mainly L/24 versions. Yesterday, I replayed June 1941 scenario: 6 veteran IIIH versus 9 regulars (3 KV-1, 1 KV-2, 2 T34s, the rest being T-26s and other light tanks). I used the method described earlier, shooting from back and flanks. T-26s and Light tanks died early with one or two shots. T-34s died with several rounds in the back hull/turret KVs refuse to die, rounds simply bounced off them. In the end, it was down to 4 IIIH versus 4 KVs in a 51/49 draw. Of coss in hindsight it was not a realistic composition, i think in reality it would have been 1 KV with a couple of T34s followed by light tanks. I wonder how the german tanks responded to the KVs with IIIs and short-nosed IVs. anyway, will try to add in IVs in the same scenario i created. cheers!

Eden, also known as TopHat / LowSky method of using multiple tanks to moving in and out of Line of Sight of Enemy. This will make it harder for the enemy tanks to engage and also a great diversionary tactic where other tank teams can flank the enemy tanks. It did not work for me, my guess is that 4 enemy tanks versus 1 tank doing a tophat/lowsky isgonna get lucky.

Kestri: I had to run *with* a mobile stretcher. it was no fun at all. Well, as for Yelnia stare for beginners. I would suggest setting the parameters for 50 to 100% more troops (in the initial setup phase). Then you can see the difference between rested and exhausted HMG units. * spoiler maybe * Incidentally, I have played Yelnia stare as the Germans with 100% more troops. I hid all of the troops and waited for the Russians to advance. In Stalingrad by Anthony Beevor, he mentioned that sometimes ammo was so acute that they had to let the enemy advance very near before returning fire. Well, the closest I ever got was 27 metres before my German troops volleyed. What a shock it was for the advancing russian army. [ November 11, 2002, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: laxx ]

RedWolf: Yes for Frontal Long Range Attrition Battles (KV-1s, T-34s, IS-2 VERSUS Panzer IVs and StuGs). Where the numbers are 1 to 1 or slightly less than 1, in my case, 6 vet versus 8 russians regulars. But the question isn't about that but more the historical aspect of it and a validation of the tactics used above. laxx [ November 11, 2002, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: laxx ]

** edited. the previous subject header was "Gamey Tank Tactics" But the threads seem to focus on June 1941 German tactics against Russian Tanks. So.... *** Hi, i find that straight head to head (frontal) tank battles in CMBB as germans are quite suicidal, based on Panzer IV, IV L/70, JagD Panzer, StuG etc versus KV-1, IS-2, T-34, T-44, SP-70. I tried a few defensive scenarios of dawn/dusk with hull down with/or hiding behind woods, in scattered trees without much success against Russian armor in frontal battles. (6 veteran german versus 8 regular russians tanks.) I even tried to put my IVs in constant forward/reverse movements so as make it harder to be shot at, this at about 1600 to 2000m ranges between the tanks. Well, needless to say, rounds bounced off the Russian frontal amour (unless the L/70 got lucky). And even at great distances, the Russian tanks got better accuracy at firing as each minutes passed. Reading up on some of the earlier post later, I did, however, have some good successes (Total, Major and Tactical) with the following tactics: - using sharpshooters to shoot Tank Commanders, thus forcing hatches closed and thereby limiting the field of vision of the russian tanks. I suspect Light Russians tanks may even abandon the tank due to 1 person turret. - setting up (during setup) or moving my tanks into various ambushes points in ground depressions, or behind woods. Hiding and waiting for the closed hatched tanks to go past before coming out and blasting them from the sides and from the back. Thus, in a 3000m x 400m scenario, I would have about 3 tank teams setup along the fairway so to speak. Usually, the weakest tanks (those L/24s) would be first, followed by IV L/48s, and lastly a tank team of perhaps IV L/70s. Needless to say, the first team is usually the sacrificial lamb, but usually able to put out 1 to 2 Russian tanks out of action, or abandoned). My questions: - Were sharpshooters often used to kill enemy tank commanders ? Was this in German doctorine ? Also, I have yet to find any references of sharpshooter/armor collaboration this way. - Were tank vs tank ambush common in the eastern front ? And were there actual tank battles without combined arms ? - Are my tactics too gamey ? cheers laxx [ November 12, 2002, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: laxx ]

I am so happy. i finally received my copy of CMBB, mind you, i placed the preorder in the first week of september. no more dreaming about how sturmtigers move across the steppes. no more visualising how sachet explosives work. no more *trying* to pretend CMBO is CMBB, and buying lots of green/conscript polish troops versus small veteran german troops. no more pretending M4A1 *is* a t34. blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth! laxx Last of the Mohican Pre-orders! ps. my copy shipped on Oct 29th (lol) pps. Thanks MadMatt and the Battlefront team!

not shure how many have done it, i have actually *crawled* under the barb wire with rotten meat to simulate a situation, this was just a puny 10 meter pit but i sweated profusely, complete with full battle order (web, helmet, rifle).

*bump*

How about "Suggestive" or "Amorous", way above Rested. i think i am gonna stop. this thread is too much....