MajorBooBoo

I think its an interesting discussion nonetheless. I think critical analysis of uber-legends will always bring out heated arguments. One issue about the Nebelwerfs with the HE in the back. From a physics standpoint, this is not ideal. As the propellent gets spent, you could have a hollow formed in the front of a spinning projectile. This leads to nutation and procession. and at long ranges, the accuracy would be severely affected. I personally like the Maultier as a 15cm weapon. Used in close cooperation with mech forces, it has a place and should have been taken over on a bigger scale by the sturmartillerie. For indirect, I think the germans should have concentrated on heavier weapons. The reload rate of these weapons was not only hampered by the size/wight but also the need for electrical firing. This was further hampered by the need to move after every barrage firing. Allied counter battery and air power had them in the envelope and it was better to move to the ammo then have the ammo move to them. Does anyone have any drawings of the projectiles?

Burgetts guys had just landed and were forming up in a woods. The main issue, I believe, is that the 88s SPOTTED the airborne guys firsts. So the troopers were thrown into confusion and went down where they were. The 88s were blasting the trees and the troopers were losing key people. Finally the remaining NCOs formed everyone up (under fire, only elite/crack should be able to do this!) and hurled everyone at the guns. If the germans had just a couple of LMGs, they probably could have slaughtered the troopers as they ran at the 88s (which were just firing like madmen). It is mentioned several times that airborne believed in running at the enemy in battle. This is because, in their intended role, they would normally have the element of surprise and be attacking rear area elements. As the troopers were more often used in front line type battles as the war dragged on, they paid for these tactics. I can also supply cases of airborne guys also rushing quad 20s! I believe it is in A Bridge Too Far. It wasnt pretty either as the guns were in towers with sandbags. The troopers finally got underneath the guns (who couldnt fire back) and hit them with bazookas.

I have read some of the German info regarding their R&D on projectiles/fragmentation. They clearly were at the foremost in looking into improvements. Their lead in hollow charge being an example. I remember reading they even setup a low pressure chamber that they could fire/detonate HE rounds (simulating high altitude). The major discovery being that HE isnt important but fragmentation is (if you want to shoot down a plane). They optimized the autocannons for planes and perhaps 88 shells this way. Sort of the opposite of underwater detonations where frags dont matter and HE is the key (shockwave). I also beleive they felt cast or drawn materials were best for shell fragmentation. Using strong steel was wasteful because it took energy away from the explosion (to crack the metal) and the frag pieces were rather large. The germans were even looking into hollow charge as an AA shell. They should have put the rocket program time into a mini-V2 that could reach up to the bombers and have a nose cone full of panzerfaust!

Fuzes are probably the greatest advances in arty/mortars. Explosives and shell designs may have made little improvements but the electronics are dirt cheap and magnify the utility and deadliness of indirect fire. Also electronics in laser range finders and radios make indirect fire responsive and deadly. The advances in body armor/vests somewhat offset these advances though. Troops in earthen bunkers wearing this equipment have a little safety from airbursts.

I will reiterate what my example demonstrates. A single mortar round of 120mm caliber (maybe an outlier/perfect hit..doesnt matter) could be an extremely efficient killing device. Do you think a single Nebelwerfer 15cm in the same situation would have wreaked such results? I dont think so. I have already stated my reasons. Less HE and less metal frags. Thats all. I dont want to hear or address "shooting myself in the foot". Thats not part of the debate. The thread started about an inquiry into the seemingly small HE payload of this mass produced weapon (15cm nebelwerfer). I think I threw some good posted info, citing sources, etc. Its very interesting. The fact is the germans made thousands of these 15cm and over 4 million rockets for them. It raises some interesting points. Should they have gone for larger rockets instead? Should they have developed a cluster munition for these? I believe the soviet accounts describe saturation barrages by this weapon. Simple math shows that a single 4 launcher barrage is putting out 24 rockets times 75 pounds each. Thats 1800 pounds. Without packing material. That same raw weight would net you over 50 120mm mortar rounds that werent as bulky (and had more HE). I dont think that the nebelwerfers were of much use UNLESS ripple or mass fired. They achieved "cluster" like effects this way (which the soviets fell under). 50 x 120mm mortar bombs is much more flexible in the amount of targets they could engage. Nebelwerfers should be very expensive and rare in the game. Like airpower.

Someone please explain 1 800 collect to dorosh over in the general forum also. Where it also belongs. Dorosh, your posturing and snippy remarks to people, have they gotten you very far in life?

A good book is the Burgett "Arnhem" accounts. His company, in fact, bum rushes a platoon of 88s without german infantry support! So it just goes to show that unlikely tests could happen! The outcome was pretty bad for the airborne company also. The 88s were blasting the US guys at close range and had to be over run. Burgett describes how he ran strait at them because he wanted to get closer before they fired again. the 88s were effecting airbursts and it was clobbering the US guys. How the airbursts were made (trees, fuzes) was not that clear. I forget the actual losses but it was like 30 percent. This was at a fairly close range too. I doubt that many of the US guys would have made it from further back.

I believe that I already stated that the 120mm had a stand off on its fuse design. It was designed to defeat burying itself anyway. Your idea that tabletop fragments (which you describe as 'gouged'...?) did most of the killing is strange. A round landing nearly perpendicular to a steel surface would tend to blast that surface downward, not cut it up into little pieces and fling them perpedicular. In a crowded area, a ground detonation or a waist high detonation would hardly matter in performance. Maybe the suicide bombers of the world should tie 120mm mortar rounds to thier chests and back and sit on metal picnic tables? tell them Johnb sent ya.. The 120mm carrys more HE than the 15cm and does it in a better designed fragment producing envelope. Any way you gouge it Johnb, its still a more lethal round. As other people here are also posting, the nebelwerfers were NOT flying, screaming sycthes dropping from the heavens above. Most of the case was for the rocket motor wasnt it? I thought that was clear from previous posts. It had less HE and less metal around the HE. The metal was in front of the HE and would probably be spent into the ground since the rounds came in at an angle. While I dont want to appear vindictive, but I fear you stuck your foot in your own mouth. My argument that a mortar round like the 120mm is preferable to a rocket delivered blast device like the nebelwerger 15 cm is valid.

German 75mm HE Sprgr. 34 HE 60/40 Amatol 0.454 kg. Zdlg. Np. 10 Kl. Az. 23umg olive green - Sprgr. Kw. K. (34) HE 60/40 Amatol 0.853 kg. Zdlg. C/98 Kl. Az. 23 olive green I assume you are comparing the sherman 75mm to a 81mm mortar round? How do the german 75mm HE rounds compare? Is the german 75mm perhaps more powerful?

Reaction to MG fire is a learned response that can be measured in milliseconds. I dont know all the details of the street battle above, but full auto 7.62mm powered MGs like the M60, fired over ones head makes a very disconcerting CRACK_CRACK_CRACK bup bup bup noise. Thats the supersonic copper jacketed slugs whipping (as in bullwhip CRACK) the air (which can be felt) followed by the sound of the MGs report catching up to the bullets. The impact of these bullets near you lets you know that danger is close and powerful.I would say the gentleman showed a conscript type reaction. Any military training usually includes familiarity with weapons, especially during wartime. Perhaps the couple were very close to the firing MG and could not hear anything. Sort of in the noise umbrella that the MG put out. I must admit, its the oddest story that I have heard.

What does bravery have to do with calling anyone? It would be no more braver than calling someone a name online. If the british would have given phones to the tommys in WWI, would it have mattered? Can I call collect? 1 800 collect?

While I wouldnt argue against 24 rockets coming in within seconds of each (though spread out of course)not being terrifying, I would argue that the near-airburst isnt as ideal as it seems. These were blast weapons and did not produce much in the way of shrapnel. The fact is the rocket motor was dead weight along for the ride after the weapon launched. If it was indeed in front of the HE, then it would most likely be spent into the ground. A 120 mm mortar is very devastating as far as shrapnel goes. A horrible story is told (I saw pics of this) of a single 120mm round that hit a food bazaar in the former Yugoslavia. people were literally cut to pieces and laying around like rag dolls. The toll was something like 200. Single shrapnel pieces cut through many people and even went through walls. A blast weapon in the same situation would not have done the same damage. Human suicide bombers dont achieve these results nowadays. They are packing some 10-20 pounds of explosive usually. Many accounts exist of these rocket weapons not doing much damage to infantry in line positions. The fact is that a dug in line of infantry is hard to hit. They scare living hell out of people and will blow some unfortunate guys away from near hits, but are somewhat wasteful. The range variation of these weapons was such that they were better suited for area targets (like small towns) or similar surrounded forces in a small area. Likewise, a target such as a small reinforced house can be concievably walked into with a mortar. The same can not be said about those rockets in the indirect role. The nebeltruppen did use their weapons on occasion in a direct fire role and were devastating. They werent accurate enough to hit things like tanks but could persuade defenders in buildings to give it up. Mortars arent that useful. But Mortars dont give their own position away as much and in the face of overwhelming air and arty support, not being seen is smart. I still go for the mortars.

I guess the overhead MG fire desensitized you to the rifle fire. You bacame veteran or elite immediately. Your post, of course, brings up some questions. Were you closer to the MG or the rifleman? Does this sort of thing happen often? If someone were firing ANY weapon, friendly or not, over my head, I would have crawled as fast as I could to get the hell away from there. I think that your experience is more typical of civilians than any military individuals. Most soldiers leave the wife at home.

Mortars have an even more horrible effect..very little audible anouncement. Sort of the opposite of Nebelwerfers. Mortars land nearly vertical and the first ones catch troops that are exposed (no diving for cover because of whistling). A mortar round landing 100 meters away from you will get you very worried because if its a ranging round, you think you will get it next without any preparing for it. So they have their own subtle psych effect. Actually an arty round that is coming directly at you makes very little warning either but most people freak when attacked by mortars. Arty rounds that land to your sides and over you make that incoming noise due to the rotational effects thereby giving you some warning. Direct fire HV guns (tanks, atg, etc) make no sound besides the immediate explosion followed by the boom of the gun that fired it. Even if you saw the flash of the tank firing at you from two hundred meters, you would have little time to react to it. Human reaction time is about 0.4 seconds (most drag racers know that number).

Did you get any phone calls?

A german 120 mortar... It fired the Wurfgranate 42 that had a length of 72.1cm and weighed 15.8kg incl. 3.1kg HE Thats about 20 percent HE payload and a very effective shrapnel maker. The 15cm Nebelwerfer... weighed 34.2kg total, propellant 6.5kg, explosive 2.4kg If we subtract the propellent from the total weight, then its 27.7kg and that gives around 8.5 percent HE payload. I dunno. I think I would rather have the 120 mortars myself. Manufacturing the mortar weapons would probably be more expensive and it might weigh more also. But I would rather have the accuracy that a 120 mortar can give (dont know teh range tradeoff off the top of my head). The rockets can ripple fire and lay down some quick blasts but reloading takes time. Yeah give me 120s. I read the rockets didnt have much in the way of shrapnel effect and the 120s had a stand off that would detonate the mortar bomb a few inches off the ground. Thats a scary weapon. The germans made millions of these 15cm rockets but moved to larger calibers as the war went on. I think the accuracy fell off as they went to bigger weapons.

25-pr 25 7.0% 3.7-in How 28 9.0% 10.5-cm Gr38 33 9.3% 105-mm M1 33 14.8% 4.5-in Gun 55 6.9% 5.5-in 100-lb 100 10.0% 5.5-in 80-lb 82 14.6% 15-cm Gr42 95 14.3% 155-mm M107 95 15.8% 7.2-in 201 13.9% 8-in M106 200 18.5% Heres some numbers stolen from a website I will 'cite later. Boss is around.. must go. And the website is.. http://members.tripod.com/~nigelef/wt_of_fire.htm#Equivalence%20Between%20Calibres http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Bilder/Raketenwerfer/15-cmNbW.jpg The diameter of this field rocket seems to vary along the length. Anyone know what dimension that 15cm reflects? Is it the launcher tube diameter? I recall reading that some of these battlefield rockets have the HE payload in the back of the projectile and the rocket motor up front (and being spin stabilized also). From the picture, this would mean the HE "diameter" would be less than the rocket diameter. That german in the pic looks spent in any case. [ February 06, 2002, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ]

2.5 (2500g) Kg is 5.5 pounds of explosive. A 6 inch (150mm) shell probably weighs around 60 pounds (?) and would contain approx 4-5 percent explosive (thats a high guess, maybe its a bit lower) so thats 2.5 to 3 pounds explosive. So I would guess that a small nebelwerfer like the 15cm could still "outbang" an arty piece. Certainly a nice weapon to barrage-launch into a surrounded village.

These discussions about tests make me wonder if the following would be a way of "booting" up WWII firepower. By booting up, I mean bringing it up through the ages. Could testing be done first with just rifle armed troops? This would allow a base that other layers of forepower can be built on? Once the rifle models out well (meets a certain design specification for effectiveness, etc), layer on different small arms and then finally MGs of different types? Sort of a Law of Partial Pressures approach. It is difficult to say if MGs are modeled well if there is the prescence of other weapon types in the same test. These tests, of course, require many runs to be of any use and would take alot of time.

There wasnt silicon based transistors in 1943-1945. That means the US must have used tube technology somehow (to make the radar implanted fuses needed for VT). Must have been some sort of micro tubes I suppose. Even if they were very small, they would have taken up alot of space in a shell. A mortar, with its softer launch, would have been easier on the electronics anyway. But the VT was an AA attempt primarily and only used later in the war as a anti-personnel weapon.

So if I tell conscripts to run in the open, its a blood fest?

I didnt read this whole thing but have one question: Is cover tied to the troop quality? That is, would conscripts have less cover/more exposure than vets? This does have some basis in reality (where drills like spreading out take effect) and could nicely simulate WWI where a bunch of stiffs walk in HMG fire.

If I call you, will you tell me all about the books you read? Well, no thanks, I would rather listen to one vets story than a lifetime of reading if you know what I mean. And yes, someones fired MGs over my head too. What this supposeded discussion lacks is context. The context being an assault. In the game, an assault can be summoned up at any time (with some variable delays) but non-the-less its going to happen. Men assaulting a position will then face firepower because they are acting in unison (and perhaps a little too readily in the case of real life WWI). In real life, Units moving but NOT assaulting, being fired upon, are much more likely to get prone toot-sweet and take some action like finding cover and returning fire (like the Panama vet said). The fact that the game DOES undermodel MG firepower (yes it does indeed), is sort of made worse because the units in the game can so readily assault in concert. So if CMBB does make MGs deadlier, even perhaps a little beyond reality, then it somewhat offsets the borg control thing. If CMBB models the new Assault order as being limited (either the amount of units capable or if several assaulting units all share the same delay etc) or something along those lines, then all the better. If CMBB models units reactions to fire while NOT assaulting as being more self-protective (ie get down!), then, oh-boy-oh-boy, maybe some of these boring threads will go away. Now back to the Dorosh show..

Was that a Canadian apology? It's a mysterious language, that Canadian is.

I guess this is an admission on your part you are ill equipped to participae in any meaningful or relevant way in this discussion? Apology accepted. Is an admission an Apology in Canada? Is an assumption of an admission likewise Canadian for apology? I cant believe that Slappy is taking the lead in the cheese-eater pageant poll. DOHrosh is clearly the BTS mascot (whats Canadian for weasel?) [ February 04, 2002, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ]