MajorBooBoo

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75MM H.E., TNT/1.11 lb. HEAT Pentalite/1.1 lb. BD, PD *105MM H.E TNT/4.80 lb. Pentalite PD, BD, MT, TSQ *Mortar, 81MM H.E. TNT/1.22 lb. PD Mortar, 60MM H.E. TNT/0.34 lb. PD Rocket, 3.5 Inch H.E. Comp B/1.93 lb. BD, PIBD Heres some US weapons giving poundage of HE fillers. [ February 25, 2002, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ]

Jason Are you claiming 251/9's used IG? They used the short 75mm from the StuG and early Panzer IV, no? I read once that the germans even manufactured these L24s for SPW specifically. They werent all hand me downs.

The assault gun also allows the enemy no respite from when your indirect artillery is letting up during an attack. The artillery keeps the defenders heads down. Once it stops, the enemy can spring into action. Having assault guns in an assault then covers this vulnerable period.

I see Fleischer also states the StuG L48 75mm HE as having 5.74Kg and 0.68Kg explosive in KWK 34. I wonder if that Panzer IV website has a typo? It reads 0.86-ish but should really be 0.68? 0.86 would be 15 percent by weight? "German 7,5cm le IG 18 = 570g 7,5cm Gebirgskanone 15 = 500g 7,5cm FK 16 = 520g, 370g 7,5cm le FK 18 = 520g 7,5cm PaK 40 = 640g 7,62cm PaK 36 = 550g US 75mm M3 = 667g (same for a lot of other 75mm guns and howitzers) 3" M7 = 390g (same for 76mm tank guns" The german PAK40 (I take this to be the ATG?) has a respectable payload and is high velocity? The US 3" is a very low fill projectile? It would be useful to examine the shell weights also. The composition of HE is also important. The 60/40 amatol of german shells would only be as effective as 5/6 TNT packed shells. The germans sometimes have FES on their shells. Is thisRDX type explosive? Thsi explosive is more powerful than Amatol? [ February 24, 2002, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ]

This website shows a side by side of the Panther AP and HE. The AP rounds for this weapon are not the same as the L48s by the way. It is characterized by a pointier nose. It also has two bands and I read once that the other german shells only had one band. The AP round weighs 15 (6.8kg) nd the HE weighs 12.628 (5.74kg) be interested if anyone has filler weight for this HE round? This from the following website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/pzpanther/pzpanther-Charakteristics.html [ February 24, 2002, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ]

Maybe I got out of hand. But it just seems that conversations here are characterized by people not paying attention top other peoples posts, people at BTS not commenting on issues, people butting in and nitpicking and a general lack of focus in threads. I think the "L48 issue" is a valid point that BTS should comment on. I think that people here have discussed it and made a good case. The thread started out with this issue and it is a big enough game concern that BTS might want to review it before the release of CMBB. The HC issue, its use and performance, is seperate and maybe Brian can step up and produce. People have cited reports that it was not accurate and when it did hit, was not as effective as regular AP. Fleicsher also states the case against the stug/105 HC shells. That is, limited in range (and also slow loading). Anyone know about russian HC? I only recall the ineffective 122mm HC produced. The HE filler issue is seperate still. The US 76 is an example of a very low fill. I think that a comparison of HE fillers from other 75/76 (including russian and field guns) would be intersting. I did a typo with the 15 pounds. A 75mm would be about 12 pounds generally. This is interesting stuff. I will try to dig up more info on the HE. I will try to keep my cool also.

"I'd also like to discover your source for the claim that, "The troops didnt believe in it either". Perhaps you'd care to provide a reference?"-Brian My source is Panzertruppen 2. Other people also have stated sources. Maybe you can give a source that says it was accurate out to 1500 meters? If you are going to demand sources, then please supply your own. The rest of your post is full of conjecture and cant be commented on. My observation about the ratio of HE to AP was a generality and was meant to show that tanks and other armored vehicles were NOT just engaged in antitank work. This same unit also fired off 219,000+ machinegun rounds. Sorry it brought Bastables into this thread to nitpick.

The answer is found if you scroll down a bit further on that page. The SprGr Kw.K. 34 with the large HE content was for the 7,5cm KwK 37 L/24 while the SprGr 34 with the low HE content was for the 7,5cm KwK 40 L/43-L/48. The former was fired at 420 m/s while the latter took off at 550 m/s through a longer barrel which probably required a shell with thicker walls (same discussion as with the US 75mm HE vs 76mm HE). Claus B</font>

Its easily explained. You are looking at numbers for steel and not armor. If you go to that website and read close, you will see that they list armor penetration, concrete and steel. Steel not being much compared to hardened armor.

http://www.geocities.com/military_archeology/tanks.htm This one even has another "IS2 shooting all the way through a panther storey" too. I cant believe these russian tanks started after being in the mud so long.

Thats a great website! How did you find it? An interesting thing from the website is: Sprgr. 34 HE 60/40 Amatol 0.454 kg. Zdlg. Np. 10 Kl. Az. 23umg olive green - Sprgr. Kw. K. (34) HE 60/40 Amatol 0.853 kg. Zdlg. C/98 Kl. Az. 23 olive green - Many refs give the Spegr KWK (34) as teh 75mm HE. But what is this Mini-KWK34? Its payload is only one pound of explosive? Given the 75mm diameter and density of steel, it must have been some thick walled type of hybrid round? Perhaps to penetrate concrete or thick bunkers? [ February 23, 2002, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ]

"Panzer Abt. 116 reported that after fighting 76 battles and moving 3020 km between 1 July 1943 and 31 January 1944 They had expended the following amount of 7.5 cm ammunition: KwK40 HE: 4867 KwK40 AP: 1798 KwK40 HL/B:1237 KwK L/24 AP:39 KwK L/24 HL/B: 99" The interesting thing is that HC is being used as much as it is. Another interesting thing is the HE being the majority expenditure. To be fair, the unit only had a few PnzIII/75 during this period and at some times none at all (from October on). The few PnzIII/75 did use HC (HL/B) in greater numbers than ordinary AP though (which is logical). The L48s used more AP than HC. The funny thing is no listing of HE for the short 75s! I would think thats what they were supposed to be used for? Perhaps there was a shortage of 75L24 HE? I wouldnt think so given the haltracks and armored cars also using these stumpy 75's? This unit only had between 10 and 20 PnzIV 75L48 during this period. Most of the time, the PnzIIIL60 were the majority tank (up till Jan 1944?). They used: 5700 HE 2845 AP Again showing the use of HE to AP (2:1). The unit's claims (always a touchy topic), show an equal amount of tanks to guns destroyed. The disproportionate use of HE to AP gives a general idea what it was like for tanks to do battle with the ATG's. This is good east front stuff. This unit must have been operating in favorable conditions to enjoy such success. But we are off topic and I wonder if the L48 vehicle dependant performance issue is going to be addressed?

Combat accounts report that it was inaccurate beyond 500-600 meters. This meant that the germans had to get within the effective range of the enemy weapons. These accounts also reiterate that it took multiple hits to get a destroyed target. Hard to get hits and multiple hits needed is not a formula for success. If it could at least have a high percentage of destruction when it DID get a hit, then I would consider it mildly effective. But I consider it marginally effective at best. It was really a defensive round for 75mmL24. It allowed them to have a chance of success. In longer 75mm weapons, its performance/effects did not warrent the amount of rounds that had to be fired. Its performnce at long range (penetration being largely range independant) was offset by the inability to hit at long range. The troops didnt believe in it either, if that has any weight. The rarity of HE and the decree to use HC in its place means that the germans had to find a use for them.

In regards to hollow charge: German units were sometimes short of 75mm HE and the use of HC as a substitute was official. On the eastern front, battling ATGs required HE in most tank/assault gun loadouts. Dedicated Panzerjager units might have had more AP specific loadouts (ie AP39 and AP40 taking up much of the racks with a small number of HE and HC) HC: For attacking bunkers and hardened targets, it would probably be OK but it wouldnt be that useful against troops in the open. Its poor accuracy beyond 500-600 meters would require close in shooting. The 75mm HC was marginal at best. More a defensive weapon for guns like the L24. The amount of space it took up (because multiple shots/hits were needed) did not make sense for the supply line or the ammo racks in the vehicles.

Unless the PAK39 had some kind of progressive twist, I would say that it is the same as a Panzer IV, StugIII_late, L48s, etc. I cant believe the germans would have a separate barrel type for this common weapon. I guess if someone could look down the barrel of a Hetzer or a JagdpanzerIV, they would know for sure. A thread with JasonC in it and no Steve from BTS yet?

No, the rifling twist is also different. I thought that was already discussed. It would be interesting to know if the rifling in the L43 resulted in a greatr shell spin and accuracy. Some guns with progressive shell spin just start out slowly and increase to a normal spin. Others have a dramatic pitch increase.