Mark Gallear

Mark Neukom (an ex-scenario designer) has proved me wrong there are Lees in British service in the Desert . I had requested the Lees be totally removed in the next patch . Mark Neukom emailed me and over 4-5 emails the important points he made were: Based on photographic evidence, I'd have to point out the I believe pretty strongly that M3 Lees were used by the British in North Africa. The classic study of the Lee in North Africa appears on page 94 of Hunnicutt's "Sherman: A History of the American Medium Tank" (with the caption "Above is a British General Lee which operated alongside the Grant in the desert.") The Lee in the photo is decked out in all manner of desert livery. Page 176 shows Lees mixed in a formation with Sherman IIs at the time of El Alamein. The same 'Classic Lee' photo also appears (page 47) in Ken Jones and Peter Chamberlain's "Lee & Grant: Classic AFVs No2; Their History and How to Model Them". A Lee is also visible in the photo on page 44 of Grants being delivered to British units on transporters; it can be picked out -- second from left -- by the taller commander's cupola. Peter Chamberlain & Chris Ellis' Profile Publication M3 Medium (Lee/Grant) has a great photo on page 20 captioned "Lees and Shermans in British service in a desert leaguer at the time of the Second Battle of Alamein, October 1942." There are several Lees in this picture along with a number of Sherman IIs, all of which sportthe 'mechanized caravan' style of stowage common to Eighth Army vehicles in the desert. A clearer version of this same photo is on page 11 of "The Lee/Grant Tanks in British Service", by Bryan Perrett; the charcoal grey camouflage swaths can be seen on the Lee nearest the photographer. This book also has a grainy shot of Lees and Grant in column formation on page 13. [A close examination of all of these books will also show quite a number of Grants with .30 cal Browning AA machine guns mounted, as well.] He also comes up with many more pieces of evidence! In ASL, I believe that Bob MacNamara had the Lees entering Desert Service later than the Grants; the above tends to support that, indicating a later introduction of August-September 1942. Mr. Platz does not mention Lees with the other British armoured brigades in the desert for that period; I don't know if that is because the weren't there, or if there is no differentiation between them in the available material. As an aside, there continues to be much confusion amongst people regarding the differences between the two tanks. Indeed, even the official history of the U.S. 1st Armored Division refers to its M3 Medium Tanks as 'Grants'! I also recall reading that M3 Lee crews tended to be reduced from 7 to 6 men after the initial combat actions, when units did away with the radio operator and handed his duties to the driver instead. I cannot for the life of me recall where I ran across that tidbit; I'm sure its out there somewhere. I was, of course, quite disappointed that the Funklenk units weren't included in CMBB (or CMAK, for that matter) -- which is too bad, since they would probably be very easy to represent in Combat Mission, given that it is so LOS-based in its execution. Post on the forum for the Funklenk what every they are! He also spotted a photograph of a Churchill I in Italy so not all were converted to Churchill I or II CS standard. So anyway, the reason that I'm approaching you about the question of Lees in the Western Desert is that it appears that you are looked upon as somewhat of an expert. Therefore, I think that it is important that you lead the way in pointing out that the current OB allowing Lees in North Africa is correct. Push comes to shove, the Lee/Grant series was my favorite tank of the Second World War, so I have a sentimental connection to the matter. The date of September - (some arriving in August) are the Shermans sent for the battle of El Alamein on Roosevelt's orders and released by General Marshall from US troops in training. Hunnicutt says they were Shermans and 100 M7 105mm guns but my guess is they included these Lees and probably not that many. The Shermans and the rest of this shipment were first used in the battle in October after conversion to desert conditions. As you say some British sources say Lee when they mean Grant and I always put their mention down to that factor. So BFC got it right after all – well no :eek: ! Rarity for October 1942 shows Lees on zero rarity and Grants on 30% level. The Grant is no longer as common as it was as Shermans now most numerous tank in British arsenal and figures for Grant must included the Lees. However probably still on the zero rarity factor, increasing after the battle as tank slowly replaced over time. Be replaced at end of Tunisian campaign. Lees are probably much rarer than the 30% level but without further information it would be better just to swap them! Photos show mixed troops of Grants and Lees, my conclusion for this is that the Lees are making up losses in troops rather than forming new units. For CM hard to recreate! Lees start same time as Grant and should be October. Both British Lee and Grant show 7 crewman as Mark Neuman points out the Grants crew were reduced to 6 men The Lee turret was to small too accommodate the tank radio, which was located in hull. British practise was for the loader to operate the radio. Photos show the .30 cal MG in the top turret removed and put on an AA mount. Some Grants also have this AA mounting but most do not. Add .30 AA mounting to Lee. [ March 07, 2004, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

Wow, John D Salts get even more interesting! Found a source saying 6pdr APCR! The quote from Mr. Churchill's Tank: The British Infantry Tank Mark IV", by David Fletcher, Schiffer, Atglen, PA, 1999 1 ARV (107 RAC) 4 Mk VII (1 9 RTR, 3 107 RAC) 7 Mk VI (3 9 RTR, 3 107 RAC, 1 147 RAC) 9 Mk IV 75mm (4 9 RTR, 3 107 RAC, 2 147 RAC) 1 Mk IV 6-pr (9 RTR) 4 Mk III 75mm (1 9 RTR, 1 107 RAC, 2 147 RAC) 5 Mk III 6-pr (2 107 RAC, 3 147 RAC) The Mk III and IV had 6pdr gun non with 75mm as far as I know? (VI and VII are 75mm armed versions) I have hard time believing they are “mongrel” versions if they were updated from one Churchill standard to another then they become another mark, i.e. Churchill Is updated to III are now called IIIs not Is with 6pdrs. Not even sure, that some of these upgrades are possible without new turrets. Not heard of any such updates for these marks – those for the Churchill Is were understandable as a lot were made but were then deemed unusable for battle use except as CS tanks. I could easily be wrong on this one, as CMAK has expanded my knowledge of the Churchill considerably! Seems unlikely that they are battle upgrades as the ones done for Italy, the NAs are very well known. I suppose the other possibility is that they are Churchill 6pdrs sent as replacements to make up the number and the officer describing the unit is confusing the marks of different tanks in one troop? As thought provoking as it is, I hope that BFC are not planning to wield some very strange Churchills in the next version of CM based on this evidence. [ March 06, 2004, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

Flammingknives has caught me out on confussing APC and APDS before ! I honestly looked at it assumed he must be on about APDS! I used the word official to make it clear that there is nothing weird about 6pdrs armed Churchills in Italy. MikeyD could well be right - I have come across whole units equipped with Stuart IIIs when they should have had at Stuart IV or Vs. Also a training Cromwell which had thinner armour and was faster than the official tank and a single example was in use with a squadron. Presuambly they were supplied when latter versions where unavailable to supply as replacements? Some weird things about the JohnS quote, did you copy it down right? (I like evidence!) 1 ARV (107 RAC) 4 Mk VII (1 9 RTR, 3 107 RAC) 7 Mk VI (3 9 RTR, 3 107 RAC, 1 147 RAC) 9 Mk IV 75mm (4 9 RTR, 3 107 RAC, 2 147 RAC) 1 Mk IV 6-pr (9 RTR) 4 Mk III 75mm (1 9 RTR, 1 107 RAC, 2 147 RAC) 5 Mk III 6-pr (2 107 RAC, 3 147 RAC) The Mk III and IV had 6pdr gun non with 75mm as far as I know? (VI and VII are 75mm armed versions)

Yep, assumed this was what Rexford was on about? Never common across APCR for the 6pdr gun used in any role. The book he is taking about describes AP M72 and APC M61 rounds for the 75mm versions. Officialy there were no 6pdr Churchills used in NW Europe. However, in Italy they continued in Service in mixed units with the converted Churchill NA (and Shermans!) - the orginal intention was to replace them with the later marks with the 75mm gun but this never happened.

There are a series of books published by "Her Majesty's Stationary Office", some are by David Fletcher and have connections to the Bovington Tank Museum. Churchill Tank Vehicle History and specification 1983 HMSO does not have a stated author. it is mainly a reprint of the Service Instruction Book Churchill VII & VIII June, 1944. It has an extra forward and photos. As it deals with the later 75mm version does not mention this point. APCR was issued for D-Day to the AT-guns. Churchills with 6pdrs were used in Italy until the end of the war. You get the impression that things happen in that theatre a few months after NW Europe. They may have got APCR from around October 1944, also very possible that they never got this round supplied. There is the web site with the history Irish Horse? who had Churchills in Italy, which if it mentions the use of 6pdr APCR will solve it for you!

DaveR has explained it quite well. Tank warfare upto WW2 was very much unkown country, there was no concept of the Main Battle Tank to do all jobs. Different countries had different ideas – some favoured massive land cruisers with multiple turrets to dominate the battlefield. The US Army, which had little interest in armoured warfare, had the proto idea of lightly armoured and fast turreted tank destroyers racing about the battlefield doing the tank killing, whilst tanks themselves would punch through the infantry line. In much, the same way as Germany had the concept of light, medium and heavy Panzers doing different job so did British Army doctrine, which was largely aimed at dealing with WW1 style trench warfare. Infantry tanks were to be heavily armoured and were only required to be slow moving as they would move and support infantry. The Matilda I only had a MG as it was made on a budget. A 3inch gun firing HE would have been preferred but a MG had to do. The Matilda 2 had a 2pdr and only a small proportion of the 2s were included in the BEF in 1940, in much the same way as CS tanks would deal with the odd AT gun and bunker they were there to deal with the odd tank. The idea for this group of tanks was to punch the hole through the enemies trench system. The Cruiser class were lightly armoured fast tanks that were designed to deal with enemy armour through high mobility. This class primarily had AT guns - the 2pdr, but a few per squadron were equipped with 3inch guns to lay down smoke to cover the approach of the attack. The first British cruiser tank also had two MGs in turrets had had originally been envisaged as an Infantry tank. (I still think CM underestimates the modelling of the power of the MG against soft targets and why they insist that the 2pdr has to have had a fictious HE round supplied.) The Cavalry tanks such as the light Vickers were meant to exploit the breakthrough in the trench line much as the cavalry of old had done. They were not meant to do reconnaissance but these tanks proved in battle to be so poor they were of no use for anything else. Only just, before WW2 did the British Army resurrect the idea of the Armoured Car squadron and the single regiment was sent to France. (Old designs were used ad hoc in India and the Middle East to deal with native uprisings and banditry). Actual battle experience found the doctrine wanting in many ways, some Infantry tanks such as the Valentine ended up being used as Cruiser squadrons in the desert. Almost all the Matilda 1s were lost in France and there appeared little point making anymore so the Matilda 2 immediately took over the job as the main Infantry tank. The Cavalry concept for a while had a resurecuction with the arrival of the Stuart, but by 1944, such light tanks were no longer grouped together in squadrons and were used primarily for reconnaissance. Shermans were sometimes classed as Medium tanks rather than Cruisers and were the nearest thing to the MBT on the WW2 battlefield. Germany slowly dumped the light tank, and the primary purpose of the heavy tank went from dealing with infantry, to a heavily armoured tank killer similar to the concept of the modern MBT.

If you can manage to post here properly, (unlike me) then you can get a patch to work and update games! Some advice before you apply the next patch - copy your Exe to another folder. If you have a problem player who didn't update - then your copy the patched.exe to another folder, revert to the old one - patch it for him and the copy the new exe back. Ok, Michael will (probably) not be able to understand that - but some of you will OObs are important for email games - otherwise why can't we have Tigers from the begining of the war. Some advice for Konstantine next opponent - play in the Desert with loads of Stuarts! That will teach him! [ February 25, 2004, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

I am sure you are right, I am not up on ranks and followed an internet site, which was largely correct about organization and tactics.

Crewed By Kiwis. That should have been self evident, as British crewed vehicles are already in the game. It would have been even more self evident had you ... never mind. BFC understood, and corrected it, so it really doesn't matter that you couldn't I am interested what was the New Zealand tank unit equipped with the Vickers and Stuarts? Sez you. I have read reports of actions that have the AA Pns intact and functioning as such until well into 1942. Also, there are more than a couple of WEs (British TOEs) that show the makeup and armament of the AA Pns throughout the period in question. I believe that BFC have generally gone with such supported data rather than "well, it's like this I think, because that's the way I think they'd do it, and I read it somewhere where some guy said the same thing on a website. Or something." YMMV. Modelling the Twin-Bren mount is not out of the realms of BFCs capability, even without adding any new weapons or systems. Regards JonS I agree that the AA Platoon is an official TO&E but in practise, I cannot find any photos of the double mount in use. The only picture I have is a line drawing and uses twin Lewis guns not Brens. I have seen photos of the Bren on a single tripod mount, however these seem to be of training. I gather the Bren was considered by its users as totally useless as an AA MG by the accounts I have read of it being used in that role on Armoured Cars. (I suppose all AA MGs come in that category.) What references book or internet are there for the AA Platoon in actual Combat? BTW, Mark, the only reason I noticed your comments at all is that I was looking through the earlier parts of the thread for something for my preceding post. Hint: editting four-day old posts with significant new material isn't a good way to get taht material noticed. Especially when there have been dozens of other new posts in the meantime, and the thread has moved on to a new page. </font>

I may have found a bug with the US 37mm gun penetration modelling. I have being playing Blenheim Blunder-Quickplay by email both ways. I have found that the British 2pdr has great difficulty penetrating the front of a Panzer III, which as its curved is as it should be. However, the US 37mm gun in Stuarts and possibly Grants as well has no trouble at all. They almost always get a penetration if not always a kill. (Think down to its small size.) However, the guns armour penetrating power is rated slightly less than the 2 pounder! Do not understand why - maybe the angle of the armour is missing from the equation or it does not register hull downs, although it seems to report turret front penetrations! Anybody else noticed the uber killing power of the Stuart? (Have lots of saves!)

Started to look at the British Battalion organization and started in June 1940. The organization of the Carrier Platoons is the most problematic. As they only can carry one section, it is not possible in CM terms to get all the men that should go into them. I have added notes on various different platoons for extra interest. July 1940 1940 Battalion Battalion HQ (Battalion HQ had its own carrier, but would it fit in it?) Company HQ of the Support Company. Mortar Platoon & Signals Platoon CMAK has a 3inch mortar spotter radio 6 tubes (Equivalent in Artillery list is 4 tubes without radio?) This is technically correct but there was a shortage of Mortars 4 tubes with Radio may be better). The platoon served six such 'tubes', each transported by a modified Universal Carrier. The crew had to dismount and assemble the weapon before they could begin operation. The six detachments were paired into three Sections, each provided with an ammunition truck to augment the carrier load. The truck also carried an infantry anti-tank weapon (Boys or PIAT) for defensive purposes. A seventh carrier and a motorcycle element provided platoon HQ. Carrier Platoon 4 universal carriers, 4 Bren carriers, 3 ATR Carriers, Section HQ 3 2inch Mortars. Should have 13 carriers. (CMAK does the Scout Platoon of a Motor Battalion.) The Platoon contained four Sections, each of three carriers, plus one at Platoon HQ for a total of thirteen. Each Carrier was crewed initially by three men, increased to four men by 1943, an NCO commanding a driver and one then two riflemen Each Carrier mounted a Bren gun, which could be removed and fired from cover. Also each Section had initially a Boys Anti-tank Rifle, and later a Projector, Infantry, Anti-tank, plus a 2 inch mortar which could be fired in or out of the carrier. This collection gave the platoon a higher number of light support weapons than a Rifle Company, but its manpower was insufficient for it to hold ground indefinitely, and the profusion of German anti-tank weapons made for a hostile environment. Platoon HQ added one, later two trucks. Mounted Version Uni Carrier Platoon HQ 4 sections each 1 ATR Carrier 2 Bren Carrier 1 Uni Carrier 1 2 inch Mortar (The ATR Carrier and Bren Carrier should have an extra AA Bren added, as it was standard practice and makes up for the lack of the AA platoon.) Dismounted version Platoon HQ Uni-Carrier Pistol, Bren, 2 Rifles (later added 15cwt Truck Sten, Rifle and Scout Car) 4 X section Carrier 4 Rifles 1 Bren Carrier 2 Rifles, 1 Bren 1 2inch mortar Carrier 2 Rifles, 1 Bren, 1 Boys AT Rifle/PIAT I thought about reducing the Recon Assault Section to 7 men 1 Bren 6 Riflemen (1 man would have a Grenade launcher for his rifle, as one was provided per Carrier section.) Split would give a 4 men and 3 man section and then you could add a 2inch mortar or Boys AT Rifle. The problem is a six-man section will go in a Uni-Carrier, but if you split it into two 3-man sections, they will not go in. I think BFC needs to redo the Uni-Carriers carrying capacity! Pioneer Platoon Cmak has Platoon Headquarters 2 Pioneer Rifle Squads 10 men each. Pioneer Platoon - The Pioneer Platoon deployed two Assault Sections and one Pioneer Section under an Officer and Pioneer Sergeant. Each five strong Assault Section had its own jeep and trailer by 1943, while a 3-ton lorry carried the bulk of the Platoon stores. The Platoon commander had a motorcycle, also upgraded to a Jeep by 1943. The Assault Sections provided specialist men and equipment for the disposal of mines and breaching obstacles. The Pioneer Section was comprised of Tradesmen, a mason, bricklayer and carpenters under the Pioneer Sergeant, necessary to turn burnt out buildings into bearable accommodation for the riflemen. Many of these men are non combatants, necessary for the running of the Battalion Section HQ 1 Pioneer Rifle Squad – normally split in two Anti Aircraft Platoon CMAK has Platoon Headquarters 4 Bofors guns Anti Aircraft Platoon (to 1942) - this refers to four mountings each holding a pair of Bren guns. The platoon also deployed four anti-tank rifles. By 1941 they were mounted on 2 seater cars, possibly 8cwt trucks, substituted for Jeeps in North Africa, with a couple of 15cwt trucks carrying supplies. (I have never ever seen them mounted on jeeps and even pictures of the double AA mount are very rare.) By 1944, the Infantry Division had an allocation of seventy one 20 mm Polsten AA guns, but they were never actually issued. I suspect the Brens are put on Carriers and used to arm Armoured Cars and the AT-Rifles go into the Infantry Companies. Any spare personnel make up losses in the Company. My suggestion is to omit it. Infantry Companies CMAK has: 4 X Companies Company HQ Bren 3 x Rifle Platoon each of Rifle Platoon HQ 3 x Rifle squads 1 Boys ATR 2inch Mortar The Company was commanded by a Major or Captain, with a Captain or Lieutenant as his second. NCOs should have Rifles not Thompson SMG. They were lendlease from America would not have arrived in theatre until around November/December. On AT rifles the evidence is contradictory - most show them in the Support Platoons, which in Combat, would be attached to individual platoons, although found one theoretical TO&E that has them with each Platoon and in the Battalion support Platoons. My calculation was 2 per company but must sources insist it is 3. Change To: 4 X Companies Company HQ 3 X Boys ATR (later PIAT) 3 x Rifle Platoon each of Rifle Platoon HQ 3 x Rifle squads 2inch Mortar The Platoon commander, a 1st or 2nd Lieutenant (known as a Subaltern), was aided by a Sergeant and two men. One, the officer's batman, served initially as a runner until the availability of radios permitted each platoon to carry a set, and then he became a signaller. The second man maintained his role as a runner, carrying messages to the Rifle Sections who had no radios. The officer carried the traditional revolver, but it was not uncommon for a rifle to be adopted until the Sten offered a more attractive alternative. Apparently, this was often obtained by 'swapping' the pistol with the 2 inch mortar gunner, but by 1944 Rifle Platoon Commanders were provided with their own Sten guns. The Sergeant, who in the absence or loss of the officer became platoon leader, and both men all carried rifles.

You might find a few useful mods at Mod Corner !

If you do not get some free webspace from your Internet Provider than there are lot of free web space providers out there willing to host your site for free but have pop up advertising. (I didn't go for this ide just any case my ISP started to breath down my neck aboyut the millions of downloads I have been having. But the CM Mod Database is run from one!) Mod Corner is on Geocities - Yahoo. Problem with that is you cannot put pictures up on the forum directly but you can link to the site. (Geocities know about this wheeze!) You have to use their FTP program - which is only five items at once. Also they blank the page if you have to many visitors at once. This can be variable - when I first put the site up - I got them all the time - don't get them any more so geociticies must like advertising to CM players! There are lots of others - no doubt somebody will even tell us which is the best deal.

This happens in CMBB. I like the fact that a senior commander from a diffrent allied nationality can command troops of another nationality under him. </font>

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I think the tactics you describe for the second battle of El Alamein were largely adopted because of the large minefields that had to be breached - the Germans were in many places able to stop the tanks breaking out of their cleared corridors through having AT-guns positioned to cover them. Most tank battles were tank only affairs that occurred far from infantry positions. Rommel's tactic of withdrawing his armour behind a screen of AT-guns and infantry was also very successful, and enabled him to turn the tables on an unsuccessful tank encounter. [ February 15, 2004, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

Maybe I am! Not sure where the "Kangaroo" name comes from but does seem to have Canadian connotations and is applied to tanks converted into APCs that are usually unarmed. The Recce name implies a scout vehicle armed with a MG. The only internet links I found on the subject are these: http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paterson/equipinfantry.htm#Kangaroo http://www.mapleleafup.org/vehicles/cac/ Stuart Kangaroo. Removed turret and added seats. "The Kangaroo Infantry Carrier was deployed by the British late in the war, having served in Northern Europe with the Canadians, since shortly after the Normandy landings." Until I found a battle account in North Africa mentioning turretless Stuarts being used by FO in support of an Armoured Division, first use I could find was in Normandy. Stuart Recce were used in the Armoured Recce Regiment, instead of normal Stuarts from D-Day. These presumably were converted in Britain before the Invasion - no doubt from old and battle damaged Stuarts brought back from North Africa, Italy rather than new ones. (I know for a fact that some old Stuart IIIs supposedly obsolete were issued to some new units going into action for the first time in Normandy. They should have got Stuart IVs and were less than pleased.) The Priests and Shermans converted in Italy were done in the workshops of the 8th Army, in late 1944, to produce a specially organised armoured personnel carrier unit. The converted Priests carried 20 infantrymen plus crew of two. At same time, 8th Army’s Sherman IIIs 75 were converted into Sherman Kangaroo, removing the turret and allowed room for ten infantrymen plus crew of two. (I assume this means they got new Sherman 76mm that replaced the IIIs?) The point is that they appear in the QBs far too early. If anybody can shed in more light on this subject I would be very interested! As for BFC doing captured stuff – I was just trying to demonstrate that it could be done very easily with just a few converted BMPs. Modders cannot do it as they cannot move 3D models in the QB lists or rename BMPs. [ February 15, 2004, 06:38 AM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

Try all armoured encounters or one side defending.

Sorry Michael still in editing stage will you check for any more howlers :eek: . Another quick question, Mr Dorosh was on to me about Plane speeds does it effect anything in game terms - speed given do not seem to be top speed or for any normally given height?

Thought I listed a lot more things than that! Do I have to mention them all again? Fixed things - more than I thought! German QB listings have been corrected and the DAK now starts in March 1941. Good Problems with German QB listing No German PZ III with 37mm gun and there should be! Wanted to do a Battle Axe Scenario for June 1941 involving German Tank ace Johannes Kummel got a picture of him sitting in his PZkpfw III Aus E/F with 3.7cm kwk L/45 in the desert but no such tank in CMAK - and they made up more than half the DAKs medium tank force at this time! (My guess is that the 50cm Pzkpfw IIIs were upgraded Aus E/F as well) http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/8461/BFC.html Put up a picture of Kummel in his Panzer III with 3.7cm gun and the SP-Bofors on a Morris truck here. Pzkpw III Aus H replaced the E/Fs in November 1941. (They are available in CMAK from March) and Z IV Aus F also arrived in November. The G carried on until at least the end of 1942. Found a lot of conflict in the (British) sources not only to what tanks were in the DAK but confusion of the exact classification. We need a high-powered German Grog to check these! RAF did not encounter ME-109 until April 1941 - not a big point for a tank game but a point. British QBs 37mm gun being moved down a month so it starts in Dec 1940 the start of the North African list. I think it would be better to call it Bofors 2pdr and lose the HE. (Although I cannot prove it, I doubt HE was supplied.) :cool: The CS-Troop "Platoon" has being reduced to 2 tanks all the way through. :cool: Vickers VIB troop has being reduced from 4 to 3 so is consistent with other troop sizes. :cool: June 1941 start date of Crusader 1 and CS has been changed to take part in BattleAxe. Patch has added Priest Kangaroo to game appears in October 1944. I have November as first use so good enough! Although you have me moaning about Sherman types -I checked them and think they appear correctly cannot say on rarity but common as muck from first use at second battle of El Alamein. On Sherman's noticed curve angle missing on front turret 30 degrees for early type. Med and Late Period British Shermans should lose their AA MGs and early type should have .30 cal not .50 - and I don't think all of them were fitted probably just 1 in 3. July 1941 start date for Stuart and June 1941 end date for Vickers light tank has not happened - yet. Vickers Light tank seems to go on forever! (Vickers Tank is instantly replaced and does not go through the usual CM process of getting increasingly rare and fading away. Long obsolete at start of WW2 anyway! I do not know when different types of Stuart and Valentine are actually delivered. Suspect first Stuarts are types Is – date given in game is probably when the first IIs arrive.) Priest and Bishop still appear too early Churchill III yet to appear in game and Churchill IV start date should be moved to start of Italian campaign Still like to see North Africa taken back to June 1940 with the Information Provided above Rolls Royce AC still 1920s type and not modified type (either 11th hussars or RAF Fordson) actually used in WW2. Morris CS9/LAC AC - missing, could use Marmon-Harrington 3D model. Vickers and Crusader AA tanks missing. No troop of Marmon-Herrington AC with captured Italian guns only singly not Platoon. For short period had troop with command vehicle with M-H + Italian gun plus 2 ordinary M-Hs. Marmon-Herrington MK IV for South African QB lists introduced early 1943. Use Daimler AC 3D model. (Can not prove it but possibly the only vehicle with a 2pdr that was supplied HE.) British and Commonwealth Battalion structure still not resolved. (However PIAT introductory date appears correctly in game and have revised my opinion in later posts with more detailed points on Battalion structure on when 2pdrs appeared it is earlier than stated above for some units.) Would welcome a constructive debate on this issue. Will check on HE with AT guns in game - OK done that - By May 1943 - 2pdr, 2pdr portee, AEC I and Daimler AC have developed unhistorical HE rounds, PLEASE REMOVE with all other 2pdr HE rounds in British and Commonwealth lists. By September 1943 - 6pdr, Valentine X, AEC II developed HE rounds, and Daimler still has HE for its 2pdr PLEASE REMOVE. BY Jan 1944 - 6pdr A-Tank gun, HE rounds should start here, however tanks and vehicles with 6pdr do not get the 6pdr HE round so remove from Valentine X, AEC II. PLEASE REMOVE 17pdr HE round appeared in October in NW Europe –my guess is November-December for 17pdr AT gun, Firefly and other vehicles in Italy. Some other points not listed above which I have said already - but not all of them! Grant should have a crew of 6. Also should not be rare, at least until after Oct 1942. (losses from second Almain and slow replacement with Sherman.) The Lee date should be October 1942. Moving the turret MG to a .30 cal AA MG would be historic as well. The 6pdr first date in action is Feb 1942 however got date of December 1941 for delivery - which does BFC go by. CMAK date is May 1942 very much later than this. I would go with February personally. Humber III LRC arrives in CMAK in Nov 1942 however earlier version used in desert since mid 1941. These had gun shield rather than a built up turret. 3D model is Daimler Scout. AEC I AC appeared in small numbers in July 1942, CMAK has November 1942. M5 Halftrack appears in game at Oct 1942 – never seen any source, which indicates any were ever used in Desert War – first appears in Italian campaign but do not know when. First possible use is Sept 1943. May well be even later. 17 pdr appears in game for Jan 1943 first use is March 1943. Churchill III first used at El Alamein, October 1942 - very rare only 6 used. Start date proper is Feb 1943 with Churchill I. Churchill I has 2pdr in turret and 3inch gun in hull used as CS tank in pairs per squadron. Some evidence of 6pdr HE used in Tunisia but not all units have it and issued on limited basis to units that do. So put an extra Churchill III with HE in lists and make rare! Churchill I ends at end of Tunisian campaign, no British Churchills in Sicily. In September 1943, Churchill I is replaced with Churchill I CS this has 3” gun in turret some are Churchill II CS but extremely rare have 3” in turret and 2pdr in hull. ATR carrier should end in May 1943 and have been rare since Oct 1942 although this could cause problems for carrier platoon. Change to dismounted Boys AT rifles in Uni-carriers? ATR Uni-Carrier could have AA Bren on tripod mount in centre of vehicle - can fire at ground targets but gunner exposes himself - so suppression would prevent use. 75mm SP Autocar appears in April 1943 first use is September 1943. Churchill IV appears in CMAK in March 1943 should be start of Italian campaign September 1943. Churchill V appears in CMAK in March 1943 – should be Nov-Dec 1944. Churchill VII arrives in June 1944 should be December 1944 The following lot of Churchills appear in CMAK in August 1944 Churchill IX (up armoured Mk II & IV) Churchill IX (light Turret) Churchill X (up armoured Mk VI) Churchill X (light turret) Churchill XI (up armoured Mk V) Churchill XI (light turret) Have info on all types of Churchill used in Italy - REMOVE not used! Maybe add in a month after war has ended for Scenario designers wanting to do NW Europe etc. Morris C9/B AA appears in July 1943 is this is referred to in British Army as “SP Bofors” it is a Bofors gun mounted on truck. British Army Service date is February 1942. My guess for Desert use would be June 1942 giving time to be shipped to theatre. Issued in pairs in Anti-aircraft batteries to give AA cover when on move. (Australian Army used Bofors guns mounted on trucks in April 1941 in anti-tank role - probably made in theatre!) Big hint you have 3d model of truck and Bofors gun) Only brand new Sherman IIIs (late) were used by the British Army in Sicily July-August 1943. Valentine X and Churchill IV NA not used on Sicily July-August 1943, both should appear in Sept 1943. Valentine X may be later than this – just found date of late 1943. Sexton SP 25pdr should appear in July 1943 arrives in CMAK Sept 1944 Humber Scout Car arrives in CMAK in Oct 1943 should be around Oct 1942. Daimler Scout appears in game from July 1940 not used in Desert war until at the earliest Oct 1942 according to one source. First date in service with any actual unit that I could find is February 1943. Valentine XI used as command tank /artillery observation only so no platoon formation Make rare. M10 Wolverine, CMAK first date is Jan 1944 used in July 1943. Sherman Kangaroo should appear in November 1944 – missing from game but Sherman 3d model is available. Jan 1943 Stuart Recce early and Stuart Kangaroo early appear in Jan 1943. Stuart Recce Late and Stuart Kangaroo late appear in July 1943. Always being puzzled by inclusion of Stuart Recce in Desert War, recently found evidence for turret-less Stuarts used in late Desert war as FO vehicles in at least one Armoured Division – make rare can they carry an FO team? Stuart Recce early should appear in Jan 1943 last until End of Tunisian campaign. Rest of Stuart Recce and Kangaroos should appear from July 1944 at earliest- probably much later! Invented by Canadians in Normandy apparently. My guess would be November 1944. How about some Naval artillery support for Sicily. 18 pdrs should be gone in Oct 1942 as the remaining guns were issued to South African Infantry or otherwise retired. Flamethrower Portable No 2 Mk I - from late 1942 -(time for arrival in North Africa) withdrawn mid 1943 for being unreliable. MK II appears in Italy from November 1944. I gather that this version was not considered all that reliable either. Not sure in CM terms if there are differences such as more squirts in second version - not sure how that is worked out! CMAK date for Grant is May. Actually in service in March 1942 in the Desert. This may be acceptable after all as although they were involved in Skirmishes in March, they spent the time until May training. White Scout Car and Jeep appear in CMAK in May 42. First date I have for both in use is Feb 1943. It would be nice to have Portee 6pdr and "Bofors 2pdr" (37mm)as well. Start and end dates same for guns in North Africa. (Use 2pdr Portee 3d model.) If the Assault teams are meant to portray the dismounted Carrier Platoon - they do not as they were equipped with Brens, Boys AT guns/PIATS and 2in Mortars. In Feb 1945, Infantry Battalion should drop the 6pdr AT guns, as they were no longer seen as necessary and men were needed to replace losses in other parts of the Battalion. Wasp Flamethrower in New Zealand Battalion structure in Dec 1944, (one in the Carrier Platoon) make them available in Support section of British and Canadian QB lists from this date but rare. Make Grenade, Hand, Anti-tank No 74 (ST) "Sticky bomb" available to squads as anti-tank weapon. Tank-Hunter teams with Sten and Rifle equipped with Grenade, Hand, Anti-Tank No 75 "Hawkins Grenade", for period when Boys AT Rifle is obsolete and PIAT has yet to be introduced. From Oct 1944 Sherman troop (Platoon) organization wants altering - no troops of just Firefly or 76mm 2 Sherman V plus 1 Sherman VC Firefly 2 Sherman II 75 plus 1 Sherman IIC Firefly or Sherman IIA 76mm Following organization is specific to Italian Front in April 1945 and wants to be represented - troop consisting off a 17pdr and two 76mm Shermans. (CS section was two Sherman 105mm.) Not found any evidence that the troop was increased to 4 tanks as happened in NW Europe. Has anybody got evidence of this? On Captured Stuff Captured tanks were not repainted CMBB style but just have a few Cross, Kangaroo, Italian Flag painted on a few parts of tank to mark their new owners - could be done so majority of BMPs are shared with orginal? At Beda Fomm February, 1941 some 112 medium tanks almost all M13/40s were captured. The best were fitted with British wireless sets and used by the 6th royal Tank regiment. They were used in the first offensive by the DAK, but many were destroyed for lack of diesel fuel at Musus, April 5 1941 and the rest were abandoned one by one as the fuel ran out. M13/40s with radio from March-April slightly unusual, May-June Rare. Australian M13/40 with White Kangaroo markings. Jan 1941 - May 1941 Rare. From 73 Italian light and medium tanks captured at Sidi Barrani (December 12 1940) the 6th Australian Cavalry managed to put 16 medium tanks in working order. They equipped three squadrons; one of six tanks (1x M13/40 and 5 x M11/39) and two with two tanks supported by Bren carriers. The squadrons were named Ringo, Rabbit and Wobat respectively and the Italian vehicles had a large white Kangaroo painted on the sides, drivers plate, and turret sides and back for recognition during the attack on Tobruk. French Renault R-35 tanks used by Germany in Greece, Sicily, Tunisia rare! (get 3D model from CMBB) Uni-Carrier and Marmon-Herrington are obvious candidates for German captured use. After fall of Tobruk Germans used loads of British stuff captured there. Italians had some British Crusier Mk I from October 1940 to around Jan 1941. (If you are taking the Desert War back) Had red, white and green stripes on turret sides. On Guns and Aircraft see post here http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=30&t=001219&p=8#000175 (Vickers is BMP 1934/25034,icon 25019 is for the Breda30. It matches MG BMP 1929,2798 is for the Hungarian Schwarzlose MMG - not in game. Maybe left over from CMBB?) Other Peoples Points The Von Lucke point on Canadian pistol has being corrected in the patch and by various mods including Jujus. I thought Mr Dorosh agreed with me that the MG on British Jeeps is unhistorical with whatever type of MG and should go. (It appears in just about every scenario as well!) On Sodball point of no snow in Tunisia - historically there was none - they have rain and mud in winter but no snow. Ok maybe at the top of some mountains but no fighting there just snowboarding! Should make it impossible to have snow in Desert even randomly so Sodball does not get upset - well only by the bogging! Checked Snow and Blizzard is greyed out for weather in North Africa so fixed. What does have access to mean exactly in the JonS post on New Zealanders? Are the vehicles crewed by New Zealand troops or UK troops under command of the New Zealanders? By way you are going to have problems getting access to the Sherman Kangaroo - (you have got the Priest Kangaroo now though) at least until they put it in the game! On the JonS point about AA platoon, "* CW Bns should have AA Pns during 41 and 42, armed with Brens (twin Brens, mounted on the infamous tripod)", this is technically true but very rapidly the Brens would have been stuck on uni-carriers as suggested above or other vehicles such as ACs and the extra men used to make up losses in rest of Battalion - so I would omit. So no point in doing a twin Bren AA mount. [ March 12, 2004, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

I do not know if it effect the game or not? Does speed make a plane harder to hit or move across the battle map faster? Still no excuse not to list the planes correct details. Does BFC mean top speed or speed at a certain height?

OK no I have covered British Airfoce planes before but this includes some new stuff! Britain No Airocobra in British or Commonwealth use (or even Free French as far as I am aware.) Appears from April 141 in British and commonwealth lists. July 1940-January 1941 East and North Africa Gloster Gladiator MkII Bi-plane Fighter straffing Speed 257mph(414kn/h) Structure 140? Weapons 4 7.7mm (0.303in) machineguns 6 straffes? The Game has the Hurricane in this period it was very rare and could only be used to counter the better and more numerous Italian fighters. December 1940 – July 1942 Hurricane I Fighter Hurricane II A Fighter–Bomber appears in game from January 1941 should be Oct 1941 – at least Sept 1943 (It is still in use by Australian Squadron at least at this time.) Maximum speed is 341 mph 549 km/h - it has newer engine rather than 300 mph in the game. Hurricane II B fighter –Bomber appears in game from January 1941 should be Oct 1941 – end of Tunisian campaign at least. Game date is before it went into production! Maximum speed is 341 mph 549 km/h - it has newer engine. No 2 Free French Flight sent to Palestine to convert to Hurricane Is in Oct 1940. However later in war do not use fighters or Fighter bombers – use British and other Commonwealth for aircover in Desert war up until Tunisia? Hurricane IID tank-buster appears in game should appear June 1942 should be fairly rare 2 x 250lb bombs. P40C Kittyhawk fighter appears in April 1941. (Not used as a fighter but a fighter bomber by RAF as considered obsolete as fighter.) Game stats Speed 300mph Structure 150 Armament 2 x 13mm, 4 x 8mm max 6 straffes. P40-A is the Tomahawk I British RAF from October 1941 – September 1942 Australian RAAF from June 1941 – April 1942 South African Airforce from June 1941 – September 1942 Speed 378 mph 609kmh Structure 150 Armament 6x 8mm max 6 straffes. Bomb load 3 x 500lb bombs (P-40B is the Tomahawk IIA with 2 0.5inch and 4 0.3inch guns. The P-40C with seal sealing fuel tanks is the Tomahawk MIIB. ) Kittyhawk Mk I fighter-bomber used by RAF from June 1941 – July 1943 Australian RAAF used it from May 1942 – Sept 1942 and South African Airforce used it from May 1942 – Oct 1942 Speed 378 mph 609kmh Structure 150 Armament 2 x 13mm, 4 x 8mm max 6 strafes. Bomb load 3 x 500lb bombs Kittyhawk II Used by RAF from Sept 1942 to end of Tunisian campaign at least South African Airforce from Sept 1942 –Oct 1942 Australian RAAF from October 1942 end of Tunisian campaign at least Armament 6 x 13mm Bomb load 3 x 500lb bombs Kittyhawk Mk IV Used by RAF from Sept 1943 to end of Tunisian campaign at least. Used by Australian Airforce from Sept 1943 to end of Tunisian campaign at least. Armament 6 x 13mm max 1 x 1000lb under fuselage plus 2 500lb under wings Beaufighter IC from November 1941 – Oct 1943 Speed 303 mph 488kmh Structure 200? Armament 7 X 7.7 MGs, 4 20mm cannon and eight 60lb Rockets or 2 x 500lb and 2 x 250lb bombs Mainly used in Coastal Naval attack duties but could be used against ground targets - rare. Spitfire VB appears April 1942 should be May 1942 Speed 350 2 x 20mm 4 x 8mm Spitfire VC in use with South African airforce from October 1942-at least until end of Tunisian conflict For New Zealand, probably use Australian Air force or make all British and Commonwealth types available. Free French only has Hurricane I for 1941, then does Naval tasks, so have to use other Commonwealth types after that, until US supplies aircraft to Ex-Vichy Squadrons. Poland has a Spitfire squadron later in Desert war but needs support from all of the common wealth lists. US Airforce Nov 1942 USAAF gets P-40 Kittyhawk Fighter- bomber (P-40F?) – in US Service called Warhawk and is used as a fighter not a ground attack plane. The ex-Vichy French are brought over to American side in Tunisia and equipped with this plane for Free French lists. Germany January 1941 First planes of the Luftwaffe - Me110s arrive. Joined by Ju87s, Ju88s and He111s April 1941 First Me-109E arrive July 1941 Germans finally show up late in the game! Have Me-109 Me-110 Ju-87B May 1942 first mention of ME109F and Italian Macchi 202 Desert Airforce oob http://orbat.com/site/uk_orbats/files/3/uk_rafdesert.pdf On Hurricanes and index with everthing else! http://users.belgacom.net/aircraft1/avion1/333.html On Beaufighters http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/1998/11/stuff_eng_profile_beau1.htm On Kittyhawks http://users.chariot.net.au/~theburfs/p40MAIN.html [ February 12, 2004, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

OK I have made most of these points in the past but I have some more info on exact BMP numbers so worth pushing for this one again. Springfield icon BMP number 25042 used in American section for Springfield instead of Garand again. I don’t see why an option to have the US Sharpshooter with this gun could not be included. Browning M1919 MMG # 25031; # 2797 is used for British Vickers but it is present in game – BMP 1934 The French Hotchkiss shares it BMP with the Italian Breda as they are in same list it is noticeable. Some small style points British and Commonwealth should have the Thompson M1928 first with round drum and then box. It is the only allied SMG for many years but is shared with the US submachinegun. Squad stats would be different in this early period as well with the drum magazine. I would like to see separate Besa and Breda tank MG icon for British and Italian tanks. Free French use the US Colt Automatic rather then their own Modele 35. Clearly they could not before US entered the War. As pistols are hard to recognize in the game – this one is a minor point. There are lots of BMPs of guns in the game that are not used but could be overwritten and used including 1905, 1909, 1918, 1919, 1922, 1923, 1925, 1926, 1927, etc, etc. [ February 14, 2004, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

I do know that the British Army did not have the tanks to equip the Australians for example, so this could be possible. If you have written sources you can cite, pictures from the Internet of the Lewis Gun being clearly used as the Section Support Weapon, I would be interested. I would like to see the Lewis MG represented on a number of vehicles as an AA gun. Mentioned the exact ones in previous posts. I have no sway with BFC at all, probably the opposite but if you can prove what you say they may feel compelled to do something - you never Know!

Congratulations! I intend to move the counter on a bit in the future.