TSword

James, very true !! CM really focuses on the small slice of actions were troops massively clash together. I would really like to have more choices in that respect, for instance to simulate a whole day for instance, but that's asked to much and we have to wait some time before that. Maybe flexible roundtimes could be an aspect to achieve correct "passage of time". I'm also of the opinion that fighting in CM ,though tightend up, also is less "dangerous" then in real, i could list many, many examples of that (When an enemy squad is down to 1-2 men surrounded by 3-4 squads within 10 m they regularly live for 1-2 turns for example, or a squad running in the open into crossfire of 4 HMG, they survive for some minutes always..). So the cramped time and space leads to more static fighting then in real where things changed very rapidly and firefights were very short but much more murderous and dangerous (Of course the God like view of the player is an important aspect too..). Every move of CM towards expansion of time and space is highly welcome...

Captain Wacky talks that this game is based on facts. Really ? Can anyone show me the fact that with exception of PzIV G, Tiger I all german AFV's have lowered armor quality. If you read the Post by rexford you would know that's only a fact/evidence that some late 1944 Panthers had flawed glacis plates, but it's still completely unknown how much of them and even more the effects for 75 mm and 76 mm calibres where rexfords states that those calibres wouldn't benefit largely from it. Or the fact that the Tigermantlet has 130 mm Cast (Deeply researched by rexford again) Or the fact that the KT turret speed is much higher than in CM (Jentz's KT books). Or the fact that SPW251 has an ammoload of 40, the M3A1 250 ? Or the fact that the mythical M2 can penetrate 30 mm of facehardenend RHA armor (Puma front armor) at 300 m (Not always though). Or the amazing sniper qualities of moving squads (Those annoying 500+ m snipershots on unbuttoned crews, Flakcrews from moving squads). Or the amazing spotting capabilities of tankcrews when unbuttoned (No problem for them to spot a tiny AFV 500 m in their rear quarter creeping up to Hulldown pos within a split second). Or the laughable discrepancies between a bazooka- and Panzerschreck crew (The bazooka has much higher probabilty to hit beyond 100 m). Or the fact that bazooka- and british- Heat always penetrates a german tank with skirts from the side. So please show me the so called facts/stats on which CM is based. I think Phantom Rocker makes a very good offer and i would like to see it materialize and many more players i know.

Vanir_B You're correct on the detail, that "only" all the Panther versions including Jagdpanther are on 85% armor quality, BUT ALL GERMAN armor beside PzIV G, Tiger IE, IE late have reduced armorquality ratings !!!!!!!!!!!! Tiger IE mantlet is rated at 100+, but rexford stated that the mantlets important parts rate at 130 mm (Another small detail...)

Thank you Ari Don't forget 700 m and way beyond 60 ° because of 30 ° sideangle. (I have no problem with occasional penetrations, since the shot could shear of the finaldrive or even penetrate BUT NOT ALWAYS, i did the test several times always with same result first lower frontplate hit at 30° sideangle = penetration)

Sorry beside your very interesting conversation i have a question regarding Ari in CMBB: With unobserved fire does the incoming rounds still only scatter more instead of substantial deviation from aimingpoint but same scatter pattern as with observed fire ? (Something really annoying in CMBO) Are there also "patterns" available like say a walking barrage (Fire more or less in lineabreast walking foreward) ?

In CMBO the american 76 mm is clearly an uber gun. I have made a testscenario where a Panther (without ammo) stands at 30° sideangle towards a M4A3 76 700 m away. The first hit on the lower Hullfront plate takes out the Panther with a normal APCBC round always. If you read rexford and his book you know that this is not possible, maybe one out of 20 - 30 such shots would be succesful in penetrating but not always and consistently (or some rounds at the same spot). HVAP/APDS Inacuracies are not there either of course, so shattergap. And to the flawed Panther glacis, rexford clearly stated that there is some evidence that a certain still unkown percentage of Panther front glacis were flawed, but without any great benefits for 75 - 75 mm AT Shots. So to set the Panther (and almost all other german tanks at 85 % armor quality) is more then questionable.

Another proof how wrong CMBO is...., thx to rexford he corrects things step by step. The sad thing is, i think we will have to go over the same thing again with CMBB.

Anderw Hedges, look at some Turret outfits of Panther, Tiger and StuG and you will see that there were special provisions for them in the turrets/tanks. (Jentz's books are great for that for instance or some in the museums, like the Tiger refurbished in Bovington..)

In my opinion based on some study of very detailed battle analysis (NTIS has some really good ones) i came to the conclusion that the contrary is true. In a real battle an attacking force was annihilated very quicly by some machineguns and small arms fire when not being supressed. In the Ardennes battles for Butgenbach for instance a single US-company could easily defeat a whole battaillon of german attackers, they were butchered by the MG's, mortars and small arms fire in no time. (German had not supressed the defenders and were not able to bring their tanks to bear with the first attacks..). Also the US used vast quantities of Artillery whenever possible to stall attacks. There were many instances were around 6 artillery battaillons fired on a pile of wood or the like, crunching the attacker completely. And they didn't fire for 3 or 4 minutes but hours instead !!! (The same for german artillery fire after the first attacks failed..The Werfers were really devastating. On the other hand houses built with concrete walls couldn't be perforated by 75 mm HE shells (A US platoon and a Bat. HQ stood in a house for hours while some Mark IV's shot their 75 mm HE's in the walls without taking a single casualty...) CM is a game and many, many things are quite wrong...

The problem the German "Pro-Lobby" has is that ballistics are plain wrong. A 76mm APCBC in M4A3 76 which penetrates the lower Panther glacis always with first hit while at a side angle of 30 ° is absurd (I can send you the testsetup if you like..). No shattergap is in, Tiger Mantlet still is wrong in CM (Also Rexford delivered proof of it). The Tiger, StuG's, Panther had the "Scherenfernrohr" as standard equipment which vastly improved their longrange spotting cababilty, in CM not there. Btw StuG's were the most feared type tanks by the russians, in CM they are cheap and die very fast. As rexford states there's no proof of the 15 % decrease in armorquality to date only some evidence that there were poor plates. It's also very likely that some production batches of T-34 had severe flawes in their cast-armor as statements exist of the german side which indicate poor armor quality in 1943 T-34's for instance (I doubt that somebody already has investigated on that topic, of course the Panthers in CM2 will still have 85 % or lower rated armor..) Btw Rexford states that M4's also had flawed armor plates to what extent ? CM clearly boosts allied tanks and undermines the german ones.