c3k

Trying to keep this on track... Earlier, I wrote, "In CMSF you have modelled men at 1:1. (Quite nicely, too.) When they don't do the "right" thing, not necessarily what I ordered, the game's immersion falls apart." To clarify: I am not arguing that my men should act like automatons and carry out all my orders. If I order a "move" through the open and my men take fire, I'd expect that they'll pin, or perhaps break and flee. However, the immersion snaps when they go off on their own...for no apparent reason. Another concrete example: Let's say the enemy were to the East. An elevated road runs North and South. I had a squad in the lee of the elevated road, to the West of crest. I ordered my men up the slope, toward the South-East, at "quick" for a distance, then directly East at "slow" to get to the crest. Somehow they missed a waypoint. They got to the crest at "quick". Luckily, the enemy on the other side, about a platoon's worth firing at my other men, did not fire at my errant squad. So, there they were, over the crest, in full view at "quick". What did they do next? They, my squad, transitioned to "slow", and moved to the South to get to the point they'd overshot. They ended up moving just a bit West of South. Their final position was on the West side of the elevated road with their asses pointed at the furiously firing enemy. This is a combination of the TacAI and of Pathfinding failing. A workaround would be to select a specific "face" command for every single endpoint. But that is what ends the immersion. At that point I am not a platoon or company commander intent on accomplishing the mission while preserving my men's lives. At that point I am sitting at a computer trying to work around a balky piece of software which just misses doing what I'd expect. To reiterate my point, it is not that my men disobey my commands. It is that they disobey my commands and act in a totally nonsensical manner which frequently results in casualties, either to themselves or others. I would rank the following areas as needing improvement, in order of importance: Pathfinding; TacAI; and Interface. CMSF is close, but it not yet a game which keeps you sitting there saying, "I'll just play for 5 more minutes, THEN I'll feed the baby."...for hours at a time. Regards, Ken

I can't even remember what I had for breakfast! I'm using an 8800gtx (768 Meg Graphics Memory). I'd hope it's not running out. The terrain which disappears is the scenario terrain. The underlayment stays. It is repeatable. Motion is not needed. The camera position is the variable. Certain heights and angles clip the terrain. The terrain has to have an incline to it. The odd part is that the clipping occurs when further away. I'd expect a zoom-in to cause clipping. Thanks, Ken

More on this graphic oddity: The bottom of the screen's terrain disappears at certain angles and distances. Savegame available (Al Amarah 008c 005 graphic glitch). It is not limited to trees. The entire terrain "floor" can disappear at times. Always occurs near the interface bar at the bottom of the screen. This has been noted by others. Regards, Ken

Paper Tiger, No, they are, visually anyway, right at the edge of their own craters with their heads up. The LOS is blocked because it is being started from beneath their stomachs. That puts it underground. Regards, Ken

Steve, Thank you for taking the time to respond to this thread. I'm not sure where or how the impression that this thread is about design choices got started. I wrote the original post when I realized what it was that kept me from staying glued into the game. I used an example from CMx1 since that seems to be a common background. I like the 1:1 design. I like the graphics. I like the modelling. I like the weapons effects. Let me quote you from your post, above (parts of the original quote redacted for brevity and to make a point): The important part, "...I experienced massive levels of frustration because the game wouldn't allow me to interact with the terrain as I wanted to and, according to the visuals, I should have been able to do..." Hmm, this describes CMSF for me. In CMSF, as I form my unit for an attack, I have high expectations. When I give a "slow" command to creep up to the top of a crest because the enemy is firing from the far side and I need more guns on the line, I don't lose the immersive feeling that I'm actually there if an RPG lands on my men. I do get frustrated when my men STAND UP and then got shot. (Note: savegame Al Amarah 008c 004.) When I've finally positioned a team in a great location, in shellholes on top of a road, and they are blind because the LOS is drawn from beneath them, that is frustrating. Nothing about those frustrations is due to the overall design choices in CMSF. It is due to the execution of those design choices. A more detailed design requires higher fidelity modelling. The points where it fails to achieve that higher fidelity are more obvious. In CMSF you have modelled men at 1:1. (Quite nicely, too.) When they don't do the "right" thing, not necessarily what I ordered, the game's immersion falls apart. This is not a critique on design choices. It is not a wish for the golden days of CMx1. It is not a complaint about the theater, the scale, the opponents, or the timeframe. This is one customer's observations of what makes games addictive, fun, and replayable and how that feeling, once formed, evaporates suddenly in the midst of a CMSF scenario. Thanks, Ken [ March 30, 2008, 04:36 AM: Message edited by: c3k ]

Adam1, here's a specific example which snapped the feeling of immersion: having restarted a scenario (Al Amarah) several times, I finally learned how to get my men to the crest of the elevated road. (The repeated restarts are NOT a problem as regards immersion. That's a combination of learning, tactical decision-making and interface shortfalls. The first two are on me; the interface shortfall is on BF.C. I can expand on that in a separate thread.) Now, back to the "snap" out of immersive gameplay: Having gotten my men, mostly, to the elevated road, I had one more squad I needed to move up. I'd used "quick" to the bottom (sheltered side) then "hunt" to where I thought the crest was. They refused to fire due to blocked LOS. Hmm, they must be too far down the slope. Then the front 2 men were hit by incoming fire - from a location the squad could not hit. "Snap". "Savegame", "Quit", "End". In another case, I "Slow" moved to tweak the final position of a squad. What did they do? They stood up. Two more casualties. "Savegame", "Quit", "End". It's the milling around while under fire; it's the looking to the left when the enemy - just spotted - is in front; it's the "blob" formation of a squad which means the front two or three men get hit while the rest don't know what's going on; it's a failure of the TacAI to properly position the 1:1 modelled men. Regards, Ken

Excellent question: No. There are several "?" contacts on rooftops as well as several identified infantry contacts. None of them are visible to the sniper team. On the other hand, that has increased their survivability somewhat. I'm playing on Veteran level. That allows the knowledge of all enemy contacts and the ability to see which of my units can see which enemy. Regards, Ken

Gents, I'm trying to enjoy CMSF. I find that, despite the very many technical, artistic, and thought-provoking achievements in CMSF, I am often frustrated and quit the game. I just realized that my frustration stems from a suspension of immersion. In CMx1 I projected what was happening with the three or two man representations of squads. If something occurred which didn't make sense or seem right, I could attribute it to the graphical representation lacking the fidelity to show all the action. A case in point would be a German squad throwing an anti-tank mine about 50-75 meters. (It occurred in a ROW tournement.) Laughing about it (Hey, it destroyed an enemy tank! I'm not sure if my opponent laughed.) I rationalized that it represented a single man breaking off from the squad and executing the attack from a more advantageous position. In CMSF that is gone. My men do not follow my commands. Finding a doorway results in split squads and aberrant pathing. That snaps the suspension of disbelief; the imaginative immersion into the situation. I immediately recognize that I'm sitting in front of a computer trying to get a very complex piece of coding to work in a manner which yields expected results. I then realize I could be doing something else, whether useful or another game which pulls me into its world. "Savegame"; "Quit"; "End". The immersion factor in this game depends on the fidelity of the TacAI model. This is represented by the actions of the soldiers. When their actions deviate from what would tactically make sense, that immersion ends instantly. Especially so when that deviation has results that cannot be undone; casualties, destroyed vehicles, ordnance expended which cannot be replaced, et cetera. I will continue to play CMSF. However, playing WeGo, I make savegames prior to executing my orders and again during the playback. That way I have restore points to undo whatever aberrations occur. Also, the savegames will be available should BF.C, or anyone else, ever want to look at them. I am curious if anyone else has noticed this effect and whether a tentative approach to each scenario, fervently hoping that nothing anomalous will occur, is normal. Thanks, Ken

Gents, I'm playing Al Amarah. The scenario features an elevated road, about 2 stories high, with some craters on its surface. (It simulates having been bombed and has a dropped bridge as well. A very nice effect by the designer!) I moved a 2 man sniper team into some of the road surface craters. From there, using my player's eye-of-god, I can see all the rooftops in the town. (This is scrolling down to the lowest level.) My men are in the craters, with their heads up. They look good. However, in game, my men are blind. The LOS from the sniper team is being drawn from a point slightly lower than their belt buckles. Since they're prone, that point is subterranean. The Target line shows blue (valid LOF) where it comes out of the side of the elevated road. It turns Pink in midair a slight distance further away. This is wrong. It seems that what is happening is that the start point for the LOS is underground. That obviously would block LOS. The grid to calculate (or show) LOS extends beyond the confines of the road. Therefore, the valid LOS is an artifact of that grid. As soon as the next grid is entered the LOS block occurs and is shown. Right now the game does not function well with elevation changes. By that, I mean that the TacAI has difficulty placing troops; LOS/LOF is non-reciprical; LOS/LOF is blocked when it seems it shouldn't be. (Savegame available upon request; Al Amarah 008b 004/5) Comments? Thanks, Ken

Add my vote for "great eye for detail" award.

YD; in my sniper team example I did not give enough detail. The team did not take any casualties while receiving incoming fire for 2 or 3 minutes. During that time the sniper stayed below the crest, suppressed and moving towards pinned. Finally the other two were hit. Pathing and tactical formations: right now it seems that the squads advance in a "blob". If they move to a building, they form up against it. That is good behavior. Rounding the corner of a building is done single file. I like that as well. It's a "follow me" behavior. (It could be tweaked; one man or more stays at the corner providing cover while one man at a time hustles out, finding cover on the other side of the open space for the rest of the men.) However, the "blob squad" stays a blob in non-building terrain. If I HUNT up to the top of the raised road in Al Amarah, the front 1-3 men of the blob freeze the entire squad. How do I get the rest of the men up? I want all 9 men, all 9 pairs of eyes, all 9 weapons up on the line. I can't do that right now. Suggestions? The TacAI does nicely getting men in trenches and along buildings. Inside buildings is looking well done also. Hmmm, I'll even add balconies: my men have formed a conga line on balconies (I wanted max firepower. When the RPG hit them I got max casualties. Sorry men; my fault.) How do low walls and men interact? Do the soldiers form up along them? It seems that using terrain folds where cover is based on LOS is at issue. An infantry "crest" command (hull down) would be nice...(I understand that could be VERY difficult to code.) Perhaps a design workaround would be to have walls (if men form along them) or trenches alongside the raised road if the designer foresees that terrain as being used?

YD, Thanks. I appreciate the feedback and helpful hints for better play. I have another savegame showing odd behavior. This is in Al Amarah. The basics are an elevated road sheltering my men. I used SLOW to approach the crest. (I did this after HUNT left my men frozen in position and not hitting the dirt.) Anyhow, case in point, my 3 man sniper team crested the rise. The 2 men in front saw and fired upon the enemy...who returned fire. The result, eventually, was 1 KIA, 1 WIA. (There were other units involved.) The oddity was the sniper (the man with the M110): he never tried to get a shot. He stayed BEHIND the hill. This behavior occurs with other units. It is linked to the behavior of the unit I started this topic about. That unit had 2/3's under fire and the other 1/3 in a totally protected location, yet both groups' morale suffered simultaneously. In this latest case the sniper pinned. His morale suffered. Yet, he was protected while his buddies were taking fire. This behavior, a unit split in different locations (close or far), has different LOS and LOF, yet, the in-cover group will PIN simultaneously with the exposed group. Regards, Ken

Gents, Point taken regarding the utility of teams. What constitutes "tight" terrain? In the case I've presented, the terrain prior to that turn was tighter. Yet, pathing and unit cohesion worked fine. My squads entered all the buildings I wanted them to enter, through the entrance I commanded. (I hunt up to the door, then hunt into the building.) In the turn I posted about, all that flew out the window. The terrain was MORE open (less tighter?). The squad was supposed to exit their building, over a low wall, into an open ground zone, then hunt to the door, then into the building. It all went well until they got to the door. That's when team 2 and 3 split off on their own. Why did it (not following the pathing) occur only in the turn which resulted in casualties? Why did it occur in a turn with open terrain? Why did it occur AFTER successfully exiting a building and crossing a wall? Why did it occur only with 2 teams and not all 3? Why did all 3 suffer the attack effects? In the timeline I posted upstream the time gap between the BMP being identified and the BMP opening fire was 7 seconds. That is too long for a unit not to take appropriate action. (I maintain that clustering within the LOF was inappropriate.) I agree that v1.07 is a huge improvement. Heck, I'm actually playing this game now. I'm sure BF.C is committed to improving the game. I don't want to workaround flaws. I'd like to help get them polished. Thanks, Ken

Another detail: My squad which did NOT enter the building, but rather sent team 2 and team 3 out to be slaughtered, exhibited some other odd behavior. Team 1 did go near the waypoint by the door. Team 2 and team 3 went orienteering into an ambush. While they were being pummelled, resulting in 4 KIA and 1 WIA, the SQUAD (including Team 1 by the door) showed fully PINNED. The remaining green soldier in the ambush was pinned and showed it. (He also said something about wanting to leave, which was a nice detail!) The 3 members of Team 1, near the back door, totally out of sight of the BMP, totally immune to any effects from the BMP, totally out of sight of Teams 2 and 3, and totally unaware of the ambush...were also PINNED and mewling about their fate. The game treated the disparate, separated teams as if they were together. This is odd. Regards, Ken

It's on my harddrive. C'mon over! Barring that, I can email it to you (I'm not sure of it's size). The savegame is the replay of the action I described. Regards, Ken

Gents, I know, I've brought this up before, but no one in officialdom has commented on it. Right now KIA/hors de combat show as red. Wounded but able to fight show yellow. That's on the ground. In vehicles the KIA do NOT show at all, but WIA show as RED. Can we change the color of the dots? Thanks, Ken

BF.C, In CMx1 (a different game, I know) at the end of the game you could examine the map. We can do this in CMSF. But, in CMx1 if I selected an enemy unit I could then use the "-" and "+" keys to cycle through the enemy order of battle, examining their equipment and level. I cannot do this now. So, is there a way to include this option: to cycle through the enemy OOB in the after action phase using "-" and "+"? Additionally, is there a way to tell the enemy level (crack, conscript, etc.) and equipment in the after action phase? Thanks, Ken

Hmmm, I'm trying to creep up on CMSF and I'm using Veteran mode right now. Once I learn the basics I'll move on to elite. In Veteran mode, deselecting all units allows you to see every enemy unit spotted by any friendly unit. For example, friendly A sees only enemy 1; friendly B sees only enemy 2; etc. If I have A selected, the only enemy I can see is 1. If I deselect A without selecting any other unit (double clicking on empty space? I forget right now) Then all enemy units 1,2,3,4...etc appear. In the example I gave the enemy units were being called out but no icons were appearing. It is possible that my units were calling out dead enemy units as they saw the bodies. That would need to be tweaked if that is the case. Regards, Ken

I replayed the turn in question. 58 seconds on timer (2 seconds into the turn) "enemy units spotted". No icon. 48 seconds, "enemy approaching". No icon. 40-30 seconds, a flurry of enemy approaching, contact, spotted, heads up enemy armor, etc. No icon. 16 seconds, advanced in open. No icon. 15 seconds, enemy BMP in sight, fully shown BMP. 11 seconds, point man tries to run, M203 fires grenade, BMP fires machinegun. 8 seconds, BMP fires with cannon, killing cluster of men next to corner of building. The men DID attempt to get out of sight. Kind of... They clustered tightly within the effective zone of fire of the BMP as was obvious from the resulting casualties. The flurry of contact calls with no icon or change in behavior is odd. The slowness of the point man to see the BMP and get back is frustrating. The quickness of the BMP's reaction is good...for them. The timeline is added to provide quantitative points of reference. Playback savegame is available, but it doesn't show how my squad split and did not follow the ordered path. (It does not show paths in playback. The fact that the teams split without orders is evident from the teams placement and that they are shown in the unit interface as being a squad, not a team. Does that make sense?) Thanks, Ken

M1A1TC, Hunt is what I've been using, yet it doesn't seem that to work as well as I'd like. The "freeze when you see the enemy, then take time to figure out what to do" aspect is what I don't like. In the situation I posted at the beginning of this thread my squad was using "hunt". Then it saw a BMP. It froze, stayed out of cover, fired an M203, then had 5 out of 6 men killed or wounded. This took some time. Hunt: BMP! Get back! Okay, Smitty, peak around the corner and tell me what the BMP is doing. Jones, get that AT-4 ready! Sanchez, make sure the LT knows about the BMP. But that would require the TacAI to recognize the BMP as a threat and to recognize that falling back on the path just taken would put the squad in cover. (The other option would be to follow the rest of the ordered movement path; an analysis of risk would need to determine the best action. (I would think if I walk into the open and see an enemy, a few steps back would be best. Rarely would many steps forward be best.) The final option would be ignore all pathing, past and future, and get into some other cover.) As it is, I would LIKE hunt to perform as I posted before. Right now it seems to just freeze my men in position - similar to "advance to contact" from CMx1. Regards, Ken P.S. All this ignores the fact that in this case my 6 men (2 teams) had split themselves off from the squad leader without orders and had ignored the path I set for them...significantly. (sigh)

Zwolo2003, Your points are well made. I do not like to break down into teams unless I have a specific reason for doing so. The extra overhead in micromanagement is a deterrent. I want my squads to manuever as squads. To enter a building, I'd like all my men to get in rapidly. If there's anyone in there waiting to ambush me, a team may be wiped out if they go in solo. A squad would have a better chance of achieving firepower superiority. (One squad of 3 teams is better than 3 separate teams.) The pathing issue is the most frustrating. Sometimes my squad will overshoot a waypoint and then come BACK to it. Other times the overshot waypoint gets "eaten" as the squad continues in the direction they should be going. I don't know what the variables are which determine which behavior will be exhibited. Frustrating. What command equates to "advance in tactical formation with expectation of enemy contact at which time maintain best cover and fire back". Does that exist? Thanks, Ken

Gents, I'm playing Al Huqf, a meeting engagement between one US platoon with a single Bradley and one Syrian platoon with, hopefully, a single BMP. I'm advancing my squads through the urban landscape using "Hunt". The terrain is close single story buildings with the occasional 2 story. The buildings are close, but not too close. My idiot squads a killing themselves. Here's the terrain: B is building wall, d is door. .....BBB ....ydud x....BBB .............z My squad, with hunt, starts at x. I plot a hunt to y, through door d into the building to point u. While hunting I hear "enemy unit spotted" several time. On veteran mode in replay (wego) I see nothing. They keep hunting. They DON'T enter. (No rubble, no blocks.) Second and third teams hunt to z. WTF? There, they stop. There's more vocalizations about enemy units. After several seconds a BMP appears to the northeast of the building. My plucky lads shoot a 40mm grenade at it. Nothing. They mill around for several seconds. The BMP opens up. 4KIA and 1WIA out of 6 men. Issues: Pathfinding; Spotting; TacAI behavior. Pathfinding: I do not know how or why my entire squad did not enter d to go to point u. I don't know what the attraction to z was. Spotting: on hunt they announced enemy unit but continued forward. No dissemination of target. How can a BMP in the open at ~50 meters NOT be seen? TacAI: why would two sections stay in the covered arc of a BMP when cover was right behind them. The path they followed removed them from cover then they froze. Savegame available. Comments? Or, better yet, solutions? Thanks, Ken (edited to format map) [ March 26, 2008, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: c3k ]

Same. See my previous post about trees disappearing. Regards, Ken

bump

Not to drive this thread underground, but... ...what we need in WWII will be BASEMENTS. Without them, how will we model Stalingrad or Berlin? Interconnected Basements. Also we should think about tunnels and caves and sewers. And how about scenario editor FORTIFIED building locations? That would represent defenders who had beefed up the structure and created loopholes and improved fields of fire. Thanks, Ken