The_Capt

OK, I think it may be time to take a look "out of the weeds" I think we are arguing "apples to oranges" here. Whether one rifle was better than another it far more complex than Accuracy, Dependability, ROF et al. Trust me, if you were hit by a M1 or an Enfield it probably made little difference to your widow. It is the impact the use of the weapon on a larger picture has which tells the tale. The Enfield was a throw back to another era. One where "marksmanship and drill" will carry the day. It had it's place in WWII but it was carrying the torch and handed it off to the future during this conflict. The Garand was a sign of things to come. Firepower as an actual "element" on the battlefield had come into being. Apllication of masses superior fire to win the day was really coming of age. If you have a platoon which can put out a hail of gunfire over an area, the enemy will be supressed. Indirect fire, Tank fire or even close assault is then possible. Firepower, properly applied is the essential ingredient to "winning the Firefight". The M1 was far better suited for this job. It put more firepower in the hands of the infantry man so that he could in fact do his primary job..provide protection for major weapon systems. Now infantry don't like to here that but it is essentially the truth. The act of closing with and destroying the enemy and "holding the ground" has become secondary to providing security for the major weapons systems, MGs, Tanks, AT systems and mortars. Now we see the M16A2 or C-7 as we call it. 30 rounds, feels like a .22 when it fires but can put out a tremendous level of supressive fire. Now what I can't figure out is why we (Canadians) put scopes on the damn things. Ever try to find a sniper with that scope, while being shot at? Not fun! Iron sights and three round bursts are the way to go. So when comparing the two, do not lose sight of the bigger picture of "how" and "why" they were employed.

Another idea, Just thought of it but in a single round-robin, you could get into a situation where "I will leave more for the other guys" So a double round-robin where the first guy you play is the last guy you play may be an idea. It will add motivation to "Takin Care of Business" cause you have to fight again.

Treeburst, I think this is a helluva idea!! I think it would simplify thing drastically by just calling a Gun, Tank or crewed weapon "gone" once it is knocked out. To balance that and squad or partial squad will be brought back up to 100% for the next battle. If a unit is withdrawn or knocked off the map it is eliminated. This will discourage "edge flank crawls". It is very simple but will generate a few new considerations: Force Conservation and long term planning. Particularly if you ration out "big guns" and tanks. When to commit them will depend on who you are playing. I think after action reports should include detail playstyle of each player. Each player should "spill their guts" about the other. This will mean people will have to think about who they fight next but there is still enough uncertainty to make it interesting. Blood Lust, to really go after that last guy in a squad cause you don't want it coming back. Desperate battles: I have a 6 pounder and a canteen versus a Tank troop and Infantry Coy!!!! The only other suggestion I could make is to make this a "Blood Feud". IE get rid of the VLs and go on blood alone.

Probably not for CMB2B but I think they should be looked at for the new engine design. Tracer richocette: If you've seen it for real it adds a whole new dimension to realism. Tracks: Human and Vehicle. Looks good and helps recce. Anybody else got some "way out there" suggestions?

Hey Treeburst, Don't let anybody push you around. You are taking time and effort to set this thing up so you make the rules and we'll live by em. Anybody who can't can simply play elsewhere. For instance, I think FT against houses when attacking is kosher, when used as spec fire but if you say no go. The I will live by it. [ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: The_Capt ]

Oh I thought we were the bad ones... I'll try whining louder. I AM OFFENDED BY KIWIJOE'S NAME!!!!

That wouldn't be Andrew Roe of Maple Ridge, would it?

OK just what the hell happened?! We were trucking along and Treeburst pulls the plug on all of them. Without so much as an explaination, c'mon!! If someplayers are pissing you off "throw them out" but don't punish the rest of us. As a min I think the "Wild Bill" Tourney should continue. It eliminates the pre-game haggle and the general gameyness of QBs. It puts the player in a realistic sit with realistic troops. And if anybody doesn't think Wild Bill knows more about this than any three people on this forum combined...well speak up now so we can all bathe in your ignorance. The Wild Bill Tourney had the best potential yet and I think throwing it out "with the bath water", no matter who said what to whom, is just plain wrong. OK so Treeburst has put the ball down. So does that mean no one can pick it up?? Winecape are you still offering the prize?? I think we can get some people together and keep this thing alive. I'll volunteer some of my time to make it happen, anybody else??

Hey Treeburst, Why don't you set a deadline for START of last game. IE All games with all players must be started or finished by 01 Sep. If TCP is the flavour than an agreed "play date" should suffice by 01 Sep. That way if there is a problem than we should know earlier. It is unfair if I only have time for PBEMS to be forced into a TCP (which I may not be able to find 3 hrs to commit to, especially on short notice) game because someone is out of touch or simply taking his time.

Hey Treeburst, Not if a person doesn't finish all their games. They may be able to have a higher average and a lower overall score. But of course you answered my question..thank you much.

Whoa there Juardis!! You might sprain something if you keep going like that. Your first instinct was correct..there is no point ot the thread. That is what makes it fun, awash in this sea of grogism. It is a commentary on the human condition thu the eyes of CM. No point at all.

That is one Dead Pershing. Get some angles on the beast. You can use smoke too. To force him to move, he much less accurate when he does.

I WILL NOT ACCEPT A FALSE THREAD!!! Don't you guys realise that splinter religions and civil wars start this way. We must be united in our Search for the First Thread or we risk throwing humanity into chaos. There must be a link somewhere.. The QUEST continues. SPFT's rally on!!!

Hey Treeburst, Are we judging by average or total accumulated points?

Wow, Thanks Steve. I will apologoze for not searching but have you guys tried that thing lately. Also I did some cool test I wanted to share. I would be very interested in some hard trial results on the new system from some of the Beta Testers. Quick questions though. Has the ability of the MG to fire from enfilade been increased to model something like a beaten zone. This will give the ability to deny and area. Or is this "Arc of fire" going to emulate that effect. And have these effects been estended to armour MGs Again I was mainly aiming at some casualty rates and effects, not so much to re-hash the topic. Everybody thinks MGs in CMBO were off to some extent but I don't think anybody came to a solid conclusion as to "how much". And if you don't know "how much" you may overpower the systems. Anyway good stuff and I look forward to running a comparison with CMBB.

I DON'T BELIEVE IT!! This is not the 1st thread. It aludes to another Board and obviously the poster had experienced the suffrage (his opinion) if the new board for some time. We are close but the Primorald Thread is out there and I will find it...GOD IS ON MY SIDE!! Now a wise out there cautioned us all about the dangers of finding the truth of the First CM Thread. But I will take precautions. I will not touch the keyboard with anything but my nose. I will sacrifice the blood of two Newbies and bathe in it. I will eat a big bag of cornchips without drinking water. I will not sleep for 6 days so that I will be in a proper state to receive the Truth. Now back to the SEARCH FOR THE ONE HOLY THREAD.

DAMN!! :mad: :mad: THE QUEST CONTINUES!!!

Well I came close May 99. You can see it "Welcome to our new home" on the front page. It must the FIRST and I am waiting for connfirmation.

BEHOLD THE FIRST THREAD!!!!!

I THINK I FOUND IT!!! ULTIMATE BUMP!!!

That thread was from Nov 99 but it cannot be the First Thread...it's is not enlightening enough. OK they forced me to do it. I am forming a spin off wacko cult called THE SACRED PILGRIMS OF THE FIRST THREAD or SPFT for short. Our mandate is to search for the Genesis Thread. Thread #1. The begining of the CM Forum universe. When we find it we will bask in it's wisdom and dance naked around our computers and chant in rapture. Memberships available now. Madmatt, give us our past!!!

My Hot Dog has a first name, It's B-E-A-T-E-N Z-O-N-E My Hot Dog has a second name, It's G-R-A-Z-I-N-G F-I-R-E

Ok here we go again, I was surfin the forum the other day and saw some of my old stuff being brought back to life. When I read them, I laughed, then cried and laughed again...I was so innocent back then. Well now I find that being a bit more of a CM Vet, I have moved well into Historian stage of evolution (actually bought and read Achtung-Panzer!, although in my case it should have been title Achtung-Panzer?!)btw, one can reflect on the wisdoms which the game has given me. In exchange for about 1/3 of my waking hours and $83.45 Canadian. Hee-hee with the exchange rate as it stands now I got a hell of a deal. OK, so that got me thinking about toilets. Yup the thrones upon which we lighten the load and touch the face of Creation. Having spent a lot of years in the military, I can tell you I have spent a lot of time in public toilets, some a little too public.. CFB Suffield (imagine the desert but now put rangey grass over the top of it and you have Suffield. We hated it so much we stuck the British with the damn thing...200yrs of Colonial Rule, take that!!) "Gee Sarge I gotta go poo, where is the potty?" "Well sir I think it is 300m that way, or that way, or..well you get the idea. Here take the Troop **** Shovel and go Talk to The Almighty." "Uh Sarge, there is 3 ft of snow and it is -20 C (being May we should have seen that one coming) and all the troops will see me." "Well don't worry about that sir, we'll all promise to look somewhere else and as to the cold and snow...well think of it as a big puffy cloud provided for you to crap on." Or even better..Bosnia '94. Before UNPROFOR was a dirty word and the Yanks had mustered enough balls to get involved. Now one of the tricks to staying alive is to never get off the pavement. We even made up a little ditty.. "If the ground is hard and gray..it's A-OK" "If it is Green and Soft..GET THE F#CK OFF YA MORON!!!" So you can see that natures call was often carried out on roadsides..if you were lucky. As an aside when snipers had a birthday party or things just got downright unfriendly you could experience the joy of the "Ammo Can Latrine" right inside the comfort of your APC. Now I am a shy fella, believe it or not, and if someone speaks or distrupts my concentration in anyway the act of urination is pretty much shot for awhile. So you can imagine my effort whilst trying to pee off a roadside at around 3 a.m. with the sounds of shelling in the distance and troops preparing for rock blasting behind me (A lot like the ambient noise in CM actually, the shelling but a rock blasting mod would be nice). "OK thinking of running water.gentle sun dappled streams..focus..focus..Ahh" "Vroom (jeep zips by) Hey sir you actually f#ck with that thing?! Har Har!!" "Sigh.." Ok rambling into old war storys, back to my point. One thing I have found is that all public toilets have roughly the same graffiti. First there is the standard hand drawn pronographic picture of varying degree of quality. Some people are quite talented actually. Then the usual "For a good time.." "So and So sucks/rulez/does It with all sorts of fauna or flora..." Followed by the "Some organization rocks!!" Then the "rocks" is scratched out and something slightly more negative put in it's place. Lastly the Religious Nut has to try and pass on the word of Christ..in the toilet of course because He is everywhere. "Let no man come to the Father but by me..." followed by "Ya you and your father buddy!! Blah blah blah." So anyway this got me to thinking...What do you suppose you would see on Plato's Outhouse door...kinda cool hey. Well maybe cool is the wrong word but I thought it might make an interesting intro into the real subject of this post. "WHAT I HAVE LEARNED FROM CM" First let me say that these are life lessons and great truths. So if you are desperate for tatical hints go elsewhere..you will learn nothing here. 1. Life is in balance. I know I am a tactical genius in real life and I totally suck at CM. Ahh the cosmic dance! 2. I should never take up casino gambling for a living. If indeed Luck is a force of nature, then based on my CM experience, it is something I should never count on. I played one game where a 81mm round took out my last Puma. If I go to do something the enemy will always attack at that moment. In short I turn into George Castanza(sp?) when I play this game. If it an instinct coming from me..it is wrong. 3. Sock Puppets will not help your game. Well I tried PIPPU (he is still out in the backyard keeping the dogs teeth company btw). Then I tried Fritzy who though very strong wrt doctrine, he simply lacked imagination. (I think the dog is chewing on his pointy little helmet right now.) I have now moved onto a Coporate Trainer called Toni (aren't they all). He has plastic hair, Wayne Newton teeth and spouts off "Unlease your hidden potential!" "Shatter the paradigm!" and "Gleam the Cube"(?!). I think he is going to be enjoying stunning career motivating the BBQ charcoal shortly. 4. Booze and CM don't mix. Just like driving, one tends to say "Ahh what the hell.." way too often. 5. Sex and CM don't mix. There isn't enough nudity in the game to get one interested and just try screaming out "Enemy Armour Ahead" whilst in the throws of passion. Stay safe and yell out your sister in-laws name instead. 6. The forum is essentially a 3rd Grade Playground. Oh ya we have the geeks and jocks. Bullies and bullied. Judging by some grammer and spelling (easy now they took the spell checker away) some foreign students. "I am liking to say this is game for which I find to be very much fun." School yard rules gentlemen...pick on the weak, backstab the strong and always hurl the dog crap at the girl you love. It is no wonder that BTS is cranky, not unlike a never-to-be-married, face like a lemon bottom, dried up 3rd grade school Marm who has to try and keep a couple thousand snotty little brats happy..RIGHT NOW!!! 7. Life is a One Way Trip. Once you hit GO my friend there is no turning back. 8. Patience, for there are Assh#les everywhere. 9. Forgivness. 10. Newbies are the other "white meat" 11. All German tanks are a lot like an angry Italian Grandmother..short, fat, ugly and always ready to smack you upside the head for the littlest thing. 12. The Allied Forces on the Western Front were gamey SOBs!! 13. Life like CM is like running thru a dark forest with a flashlight..backwards. "Ouch!! Oh ya that was a birch tree I hit." 14. The CM Forum Admin staff were long tall, well curved and savage Waffen SS female prisone guards in another life. "Zat is not allowed!! Smack!! Thank you m'am may I have another." 15. Steve and Charles don't actually exist they are a front for a multi-national corporation bent on world domination, which has finally decided to spread into the highly lucrative hardcore wargaming market. I knew it all along. 16. Like CM, life is never fair and often can be downright cruel but it is a hell of a ride!! Well I think that is enough. If anybody has anything else please feel free to sound off. Until next time, remember.. Play CM until you go blind then hire a monkey to play for you.

Madmatt!!! Hear our cries and lamentations. Give us the First Thread so that we may bath in it's glory and wisdom. The one that started it all, the Holy First Thread of the CM Forum. Second Request Bump, Thanking you in advance, All of us.

Maj B, If you would be so kind as to send me your cmb file. I would like to see this in action. I have had a hell of a time seeing any beaten zone or grazing fire in the game. I can say that you are going to get a beaten zone with the M1919 at 500m. In fact troops used to tie weights to the barrel to get a better beaten zone with our new C-6 MMG at 600m. I have seen units hit and effected but only if they are in direct line. Perhaps the problem is with Pillboxes but I tried the test with armour and have posted the result. I pulled back to 600-700m and had even fewer casualties. I think we (or BTS) need to establish a "standardized test" and come to an agreement of acceptable result. If Maj B is getting 100% denial of an area with his MGs than we have a winner. Four may be too many, when two would normally be enough but at least we can see it. I have no doubt that MGs are weak in the game and I think everybody can agree with that, the question is how weak. I think that 2xHMGs firing from enfilade at 300m should be able to stop a coy from getting across open ground, Point A to B of 200ms. They should be able to "Pin" the coy. I think Jason (though wordy and often rambling as usual ) is on to a point. It isn't the casualties which are important, it is the "stopping power" of the MGs on the coy. That stopping power is the psychological shock the entire organization feels when it sees tracers whipping about from both sides. Nobody wants to die so they hit the dirt. In WWI this was trained and forced out of troops who often had no idea what they were getting into. But in WWII the fire and move tactics allowed soldiers to hit the dirt. When under the situation I have stated above the coy is going to go to ground and stay there. I think the problem may not be so much with the MGs but with the morale effect the situation should be having on the coy. Same goes for armour. In one test I did a coy ran between two PzIVs, I would not lead a coy through that and if ambushed would bolt into cover and stop all forward movement. So I am not sure just how much is the weapon and how much is the morale question. In reality seeing casualties outside of your own small organization will cause units to balk. Now maybe this would lead to a much to frustrating game. People think their units don't do what they say now, imagine if whole coys dropped and refused to move. Anyway, I think the question need be re-visites in CM2 and I would be very interested to know how BTS "tests" the effects of the weapons in the game to ensure they demonstrate reality to a degree.