Slapdragon

It is possible that different nationalities would need to be modelled differently in this aspect. In the US military a great deal of planning was put into who succeeds in combat -- and it woirked fairly well. Not that a unit could not be decaptitated and become leaderless from enough losses, but US units normally had the CO, sometimes an XO, the NCOIC, and often a couple of sergeants who could take over command with equal facility. I suspect that this may be why I am thinking that loosing the co is not such a big deal, because the US units so often lost their leaders and still functioned pretty much as they did before. Perhaps the best issue would be to have a "shocked" for command posts, but in some ways a routed status could represent this. Then the unit would come out of shocked status without leadership bonus.

I agree with you to a certian extent Scipio, in that the loss of a leader may change something after a few minutes time (when it comes time for everyone to get more direction) in the units he is directing, but the CM engine cannot handle this now. And there is also the issue of the leader's assistant, a new leader emerging from one of the squads and moving to the HQ, or a leader from higher echelon being able to take over, and the inertia of the attack. Also, a KIA does not represent a person who is dead, but one who has ceased being able to fire for the rest of the game (dead or WIA) but a WIA may still effectively lead a unit, give it last orders which are obeyed, etc. The problem is that the CM engine does not really track the individuals of a team, only weapons and ammo. I doubt any serious changes will come to CM:BB, and when they do, they may take on some of your suggestions, but they could also be much more complicated than you propose, and in fact a unit could well loose many men, even leaders, and still not loose for various reasons the ability of the HQ to function as an HQ.

I'm going to give you one more chance, here, before holding you to your word. Are you sure you want to admit responsibility for all the things that go on in Finland? (including in the 6-finger villages) Think carefully before you answer now.</font>

In that case South Carolina is still sitting on the bench holding a queue number.</font>

This has all been discussed before, so I can tell you what was said: He is not, although he is the most exposed and IRL was killed/wounded most often. For the purposes of the game, taking out any crew position is the same as taking out the tank commander, since the commander must take on additional duties that reduce his effectiveness as a tank commander. Thus there is a certian amount of abstraction built into the game engine over how the work is divided up inside the tank. This has also been discussed before also. but I also know the answer in real life. When someone becomes a casualty right next to you it tends to cause you to notice. Inside a tank it must be 10 times worse as you now likely have to deal with a screaming struggling WIA or a sudden loss of command voice over intercom. Now, the endgine does not have a shocked tank withdraw, except for occasional reverse commands when moral faills Shocked though does not really reprrsent panic (although it could) but a minute or two of time needed to reorder the crew and get the body out of the way. One issue though pointed out in previous discussions is making withdrawals more likely when the TC gets hit. There have been two answers to this: limitations in the engine, and the realities of how a command post works, where it is still capable of being a command post with the death of a leader.

That would be kinda like 'close but no cigar'? Nope. Funny response though.</font>

I agree with Joe (I got to stop doing that)....it's got to be a Croda. Hey Joe, the Cesspool is way too quiet when you're not around. Persephone</font>

No wait, I have it -- it was a joke!!! Unfortunately, I cannot remember the whole thing, but it had something to do with the intellectual achievments of Swedish women and fellatio.

Lamprey bite, although since they don't bite humans, I can only assume it is part of some kinky Finnish ceremony now being copied by the Swedes (who everyone knows obtained their culture from Finland anyway).

I want to point out that the Germans did not overlook light tank production or choose not to follow up on in, but by the time of CM:BO it was abandoned for the most part. Like Mattias and Andreas said, they spent their money on cheaper armored cars. The M3/5 however was in no way a looser IRL though. Until 1943 they were capable of fighting German mediums toe to toe. The 37mm cannon had lots of ammo, fired fast, the vehicle was fast, could fire on the move, and she was easy to maintain. After 1943 they would take a bath from German tanks, but no one used them for front line vehicles in any case. The 37mm had a powerful cannister round for the size of the weapon, combined with high rate of fire made it a great panic weapon for defense against infantry attack. The M3 and M5 had great strategic mobility, and the tanks did a lot of shoot and scoot recon. By 1944 these tanks were useful, but not up to speed. The new M24 still had excellent strategic mobility, but gave the light tank back its anti-infantry role. Of course it did not solve the problem with an anti-tank role for the vehicle, but there was no real way to provide one to a light tank in 1944.

Yes, it is now time to place the virtual bitch slap on the untergnomen Seanachi. Out game is coming into extra innings. Dozens of smoking carriers sit wrecked before my parapets as my dazed but sturdy warriors recover from the last carrier rush. They are ready for the crews which are soon to boil forward in the company of running Piats and expended mortar teams, but instead a lull falls across the battlefield. Seanachi Now must your conscience my victory seal, And you must put me in your heart for foe, Sith you have heard, and with a knowing Stugs, That he which hath your noble Hetzer slain Pursued my life. Slapdragon It well appears: but tell me Why you proceeded not against these gamey feats, So crimeful and so capital in nature, As by your safety, wisdom, all things else, You mainly were stirr'd up and woeful. Seanachi O, for two special reasons (mainly you were kicking my ass); Which may to you, perhaps, seem much unsinew'd, But yet to me they are strong. The Hetzer is busting my balls, Lives almost by dozens are lost; and for myself-- My virtue or my plague, be it either which-- That tank so conjunctive to my life and soul, That, as the star moves not but in his sphere, I could not by her. The other motive, That Pak 40 giving it to my rear, Despite my great love for that gen’ral direction of assault; Was, dipping all my faults in the gun’s affection, Would, like the spring that turneth wood to stone, And was certainly harming my lunge; so that my arrows, Too slightly timber'd for so loud a wind, Would have reverted to my bow again, And not where I had aim'd them. Slapdragon And so have I a noble cannon lost; A Hetzer driven into desperate terms, Whose worth, if praises may go back again, Stood challenger on mount of all the age For it’s perfections: but my revenge will come. Seanachi Break not your sleeps for that: you must not think That we are made of stuff so flat and dull That we can let our beard be shook with danger And think it pastime. You shortly shall hear more: I will charge you, as I love myself (to the tunes of Barry Manilow); And that, I hope, will teach you to imagine victory against me. My forces though, aught they struggle in gamey rush, And no match for such a stout defence, look to Take the next flag by means, fare or foul. No more crews ere I send into jaws of screaming death, My Carriers and burning wrecks, but my soldiers now carefully horded will rush the flags as the last turn draws near. Slapdragon Gamey though thou are, you play at tough battle sir, No mercy toward your men, and flags in your grasp, Still, in the summer perfection of day, Sitting before you not yet plumed, You run toward a sudden death, Even if the last turns draw near.

Now there's a novel idea</font>

Hiram, we are rootin' for you, and even returning turns from time to time. [ May 03, 2002, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: Slapdragon ]

The best US ace that I have ever heard of destroyed something like 140 AFVs in 11 months of combat. While he killed German heavies, he spent most of his time shooting up stugs and eratz tank types, that being what the Germans had in the most numbers.

This might be unrealistic. A weapon which expends its ammo is fed more ammo for the next push (scenario in our case -- a CM battle). I am afraid that while weapons were abandoned, they were not abandoned when the going was good just because the last round was fired. They got more ammo.

Nothing to see here, 300.

HMG crew was 6 people, the LMG crew was 2 or 3 depending upon the situation and employment -- some TO and E call for 2 crew LMG security teams.. [ April 24, 2002, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Slapdragon ]

Actually it is pretty difficult to sell them short, considering their already low price on the stock market. Still, if the General area is the digestive track of the forum, and the CM forum the brain, then the Peng forum is the heart.

Aunty Jack, perhaps you need to simply review the purpose of this forum: to discuss CM. Please, when you get a moment, read some of the previous posts and reply to them. When you get caught up replying to them, we can continue this attempt to make me admit fault.

And thus goes the death of the 11th Bren Thread.

Eitther that or circus clown inspector, I have not decided which yet.

This is incorrect thinking. Following this argument and trying on the red herring of issue for size does not in any way prove an item was used, just as gas masks, poison gas, and many other items of military equipment. Please reread Steve's comment on this earlier. Basically, you must prove that an item was: 1) Existed 2) Possessed 3) Used (and how it was used because a General's model .45 was used, but not in a way that would cause it to show up in CM. 4) Used extensively enough to bother with. 5) Effective in game terms (in other words, if it does not change the effect of the game in any way, then there may be better things to worry about). Otherwise, the issue is a nonstarter. Please, CES is so far down the list and was discussed so long ago that it is not an issue. If you have data that it was used commonly at the front and had a detectable difference in FP please present it Aunty Jack. [ April 21, 2002, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Slapdragon ]

Please read my previous comments on this.

Actually we went into the whole concept of CES a long time ago on this same thread, it was a red herring that has nothing to do with the use of the weapon. Complete equipment schedule means nothing for Bren gun use, because it was not used, merely issued and like I said, carried in the turcks. We could just as easily say, "well Aunty Jack, because you don't know about the grain count of the Cal. 30 M2 bullet's powder supply, you cannot talk about if the bullet was able to penetrate a pine board.

That is extremely presumptuous of you Slapdragon, considering that it has been me, not you, pointing out that it is very obvious that you not I who has not read his message properly. I have pointed out, what, twice now that you failed to read his message properly. Again, I stand by my comment, you have not read or comprehended what he said. The man's job on the beach was doing the above tasks, of which the Bren may or may not have been of use (not stated). It was used in the AA role on a tripod. </font>