Pud
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Posts posted by Pud
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The only reason I gave the example of the moving tank was that its turret can still fire while rotating (very fast). Im no mathemeatician but a tank moving at 34mp targeting an object 50m away certainly looks like its rotating faster that the very slow rate needed to overcome a hull rotating. All tanks can rotate their turret to keep track of a target when hull rotating, but not all tanks can rotate their turret to keep pace with a target 50m away when they are travelling fast, therefor you can be assured the speed needed to rotate on the move is more than one the spot
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I have tested this with the fast turret of the T34, medium speed PzIV and slow turret of the Tiger.Originally posted by nevermind:About the "bug",a few points:
1)Has anyone considered the rotate speed of the tank in question,as compared to its turret rotate speed?As in one may be fater than,or incapable of keeping up with,the other.
All never shoot if the hull is doing any rotation.
Basically Hull rotation prevents gun from firing no matter what the target, no matter what the threat. As I said I do not believe hull rotation would make a shot at a stationary target harder than trying to hit a target if your travelling at 34mph across terrain and having to rotate you turret at maximum speed to keep track and still fire at your normal rate of fire.
[edit - this bug has nothing to do with accuracy or chance to hit. Do the test yourself, have a tank rotate, in order to reverse, 10m from a building (what the heck, make it the biggest one you can) and target the building, my guess is it wont fire until its stopped rotating, lends new meaning to "cant hit the side of a barn"
- im at work ,shhhhhhhh , so cant test this. I assume area fire is still subject to this bug and would be very surprised if its not][ February 27, 2003, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Pud ]
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Morning all (is here anyway)
I should point out that the AI will rotate, eventually, the hull towards an enemy, pausing to fire. It overcomes the hull rotation bug (it still appears to be that) by itself with the halt/fire thing happening. However if you order a reverse, nothing ever overrides this command since its normally used to escape.
If your tank has any enemy coming into sight at an angle to your vehicle say 90 degrees from an unseen position and you want to either turn the front armour to face it (most would like this) or reverse away with your frontal armour protecting you, you will be unable to fire at all in both cases. So what is effectively happening now is you have to choose between;
1) leave tank side on to the incoming threat and hope your shot hits and kills first, knowing your doing a paperbag impersonation with respect to you armour values
2) turn to meet the threat knowing that you will not be able to shoot at all.
Imaging your tank is a Kingtiger. Side on with 80mm@0 degree armour which can be penetrated by a lowly T70. Do you leave it side on! or Do you risk turning to face the threat and utilise you greatest asset, the frontal 150/50 armour and not defend your self at all?
This situation should not happen. You should be able to do both.
By BFC's silence Im guessing they dont see this as a problem? :confused:
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Just noticed this, as soon as it does turn to face anybody its gun WILL go into hibination for the duration of that turn and become totally ineffective as a weapon.Originally posted by Sgt. Emren:then I'd say it's best to maneuver (forward or reverse) while turning to face the frontal armor towards the enemy.
Its late 11.45pm, and im about to turn into a pumkin. Perhaps this thread will show me the error in my thinking by morning
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Just tested this, tank will rotate turret and hull but stops rotating hull to fire (with only the turret rotating) as long as turret can keep pace with tank without the hull rotating as well.A stationary tank should definitely NOT turn the hull, but instead turn the turret to get off the first shot. If it is in a vulnerable position, then I'd say it's best to maneuver (forward or reverse) while turning to face the frontal armor towards the enemy. [/QB]Still doesnt explain why it cant FIRE at a stationary target if rotating. Still the crucial point is being overlooked in that a plotted rotate means you tank will do nothing to anybody for the complete duration of the time taken to rotate. Hence the shoot and scoot will fail if the target is acquired after you begin your rotate to take advantage of the scoot/reverse.
Ok I will give up on this
, Im obviously missing something in not being able to understand why a tank moving at 34mph can track/fire and a tank effectively moving at 2 mph cant. :confused: :confused: [edit - sorry replaced track with fire, tracking has never been a problem]
[ February 27, 2003, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Pud ]
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Having never driven a tank or gunned one, would it not be far easier to sight a target if you knew you're hull was rotating towards your target? ie dont rotate gun onto turret but stop just before it and let the hull rotation take you gunsight over the target and then just let loose?
I do this in tank sims
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Yep I can see this as being the reason for a turretless gun having problems but isnt that the very reason what the turret is designed to overcome? So it can independantly track a target regardless of what the driver/hull is doing? Am I missing something, I seem to be the only person who sees this as wrong?Originally posted by BadgerDog:As far as using a turret-less tank, I'm not sure that makes any difference. How would the gunner (who's not the driver controlling the gun's lateral axis movement.. Correct?), possibly maintain enough of a stable sighting picture "gun lay" to get off a decent shot. I would think that depending upon the speed of the target moving laterally versus the speed of the hull rotating, that it also may be that the actual "gun lay" isn't catching up with the target's current location. In other words, the gun is constantly lagging behind the targets motion,...
ie any tank (stabilised or not) can track and fire to its hearts content at anything moving or not whilst you're speeding along and having to rotate the turrent as fast as it will go. But as soon as the tank stops and rotates in place at 2-3mph the gun can't track a stationary target? (target was trapped on a 10m square tile in my tests)
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Stabilised gun, sure, but on a long barrelled T34 that wasnt stabilised it would be the other way round(? please correct me if im wrong, Im was navy man not a grunt) Travelling along at 34mph with that very long gun and rotating the turret at top speed compared to stationary and having to rotate it at 2mph.
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Ok another test. This time with a turretless tank (so theres no argument about having to rotate the turret in a stationary tank)
I basically just drove a T34 around in circles of a PzIV/70. It (Pz) never fired if it was rotating. So a turret has nothing to do with it. Its basically if the hull is rotating it will not shoot.
This is a bug, you can put all sorts of arguments forward but a tank shouldnt be able to shoot if the turret is rotating (be it perhaps badly) regardless of what the hull is doing, be it speeding along at 34mph or rotating at 2 mph. I know which should be easier to achieve a kill on.
[edit - I take your points BadgerDog but I dont think they would apply here as the tank is stationary, good to hear from a real tank jockey]
Its prob something to do with turretless guns not firing whilst rotating (standard practice i believe) which has been carried over to turreted vehicles which shouldnt be the case.
[edited typo]
[ February 27, 2003, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Pud ]
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???? Not as hard as firing whilst travelling at 30mph and rotating the turret and getting 2 shots of compared to none.Originally posted by wwb_99:I suspect it will not shoot because it is rotating the turret to compensate for the rotating hull. Which actually makes sense. Damn hard to aim the shot when you are concentrating on keeping the turret lined up.
WWB
[edit - The rotation required of the turret to compensate for a slowly rotating hull is minimal compared to rotating the turret as fast as you can to compensate for the moving tank across the target]
[ February 27, 2003, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Pud ]
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I just had a horrible thought, this bug can be used to kill armour.
You spy a enemy tank that is stationary. You just drive you T34 fast as hell (stright line) past the tiger. You turret can turn fast and will track the enemy, the oponent tank (since its stationary) will rotate both the hull and the turret, thus rendering it unable to fire. All you basiclly do is drive you T34 in circle around teh heavy tank untill you penitrate, it will prob never fire.
So besides making shoot and scoot useless (see my first post , thats what I was doing at the time) it also introduces a bug of invunerability in tank combat.
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I somehow think its a pure bug. I tested same map, but this time for the T34 to drive past.
I noted that the T34 acquired the target but since there was still alittle rotating it didnt fire until the Fast move order came into effect. Fisrt shot fired shortly after commencing forawrd movement, missed.
It had fired twice while speeding along, this is the second shot, its still managed to rotate turret and fire whilest moving in a straight line. It only doesnt shoot if theres any rotate of any kind for the hull.
The chance to hit whilst driving "Fast" must be considerable less than "just rotating" on the spot.
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Setup, this time I set it parallel but with a reverse away order, this is so target acquisition is fast.
Target acquired at 9 second, note range is 49m
First shot happens a second or 2 after the tanks starts to actually reverse. 34 sec mark.
You can prob say theres ways around it but the fact is a clear shot will not occur only because the hull is rotating. Thats a bug.
[ February 27, 2003, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: Pud ]
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Game destroying, yep. A rotating tanks is totally unable to even fire it MG. As a reverse order is almost never cancelled by the AI due to situation it is impossible to avoid unless reversing directly down you forward move path.
[edit] - ie it makes the reverse command a command that can never be used in combat if it involves anything other than a backtrack move directly from where you came.
This bug would also account for why my tiger never fired at a T70 40m away in my other current game and allowed it to get a free shot (luckily bounced)
A bug like this has huge consequences to tactics.
[ February 27, 2003, 06:43 AM: Message edited by: Pud ]
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Ok this is a bug!!!!! Just tested it with a ammoless marder stuck on an island with a T34/85 50m away, facing oposite direction. Give the T34 a reverse order away from marder (ie in its current direction) even though it has clear los (no terrain except grass, 50m) and attains target in 5 seconds it spends the rest of the whole turn just pointing at the marder while rotating the hull. It ONLY gets to fire onceit has stopped rotating and begins to reverse, around the 58 second mark.
I cant see why it wouldnt fire (at all) unless this is a bug, tracking a target horizontally (rotating relative to hull) would be far easier than tracking a moving target over terrain from a moving tank, as both target and tank would be moving both vertically and horizontally.
Please fix this as it is effectively a game destroying bug.
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I have a T34/85 moving forward, to its left (45 degrees) is a SP?. I gain LOS and rotate my gun at it. The SP hasnt LOS yet. The T34 completes it move forward and then starts its plotted reverse away, still with los but still no shot fired. The SP now has LOS, rotates 40 degrees aims and fires killing my T34/85.
My T34 was regular crews, unbuttoned aiming at what appeared to be a Wespe. It had a clear LOS/Red target line, gun pointing directly at the SP for around 20 seconds (more if you include turret rotation towards target.
My only guess is that it didnt fire because the hull was rotating to begin its reverse move. Is this a bug in that the gun cant fire if the hull is rotating?
I recall seeing this at times in CMBO.
[ February 27, 2003, 06:11 AM: Message edited by: Pud ]
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File size that is transmitted for PBEM is dependent on map size and force size. Keep the map small and force say 1500 or less and you will be ok, any bigger than those you can always zip it up. That way you can play as big as you want. My current game 2000pt on large map = 500k email
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If you are converting CMMOS bmp's to noncmmos the easiest way is to set up a .bat file to do it all at a click, saves renaming by hand, one bmp at a time (theres lots of them!!). If need a hand with this email me.
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Easy on Easytarget, that sort of deductive reasoning raises the IQ of the forum a bit too much!!
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Dont download the demo, it nearly made me not buy it (im a CMBO fan).
If you like WW2, if you like model tanks, if you like table top soldiers (showing my age) if you like thinking games, if you dislike Powerups and hovertanks, if you have a real life that you want to become detached from, then
[ February 25, 2003, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: Pud ]
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I looked forward to "Shogun" for ages. I was disappointing as in my first fight I had a unit of Ashigaru Yari (if I recall) on a bridge, they were charged (head on) by mounted samurai and my poor ashigaru were annihilated without a single loss of a mounted samurai. Needless to say it was promptly unistalled. For a Feudal Japan grog I was bitterly disappointed.Originally posted by redwolf:You might want to check out "Shogon- total war" and the middle age version.
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Many thanks Hawk.
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Certainly will, I expect halving points and flags will give just a good a game. Many thanks for the concept.
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Damn that sounds like fun!! Great and simple rules.
Although I dont own a Cray Computer to run that big a battle map on
What!!!! (Hull rotating Bug?) - IT IS A BUG!!!!!
in Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin
Posted
Sorry Easytarget, I didnt mean anything against you at all, sorry if my post had any tone, it was not intended that way at all, damn this internet thing for being the cold place that it is!
Yes a target further away does require a slower rotation speed to keep track of when compared to a close object when travelling perpendicular to it.
Makes the jelly Judder - This all can be fixed by allowing the gun to fire if hull rotating, ok apply some effect to accuracy much like when rotating when moving but dont prohibit it from firing. This just seems illogical. In combat im sure going to let off a round if a wespe if pointing its 105 at me rather than "nah just hang on a minute, dont shoot yet Joe, Fred is still moving the hull around for a better look"