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PS question to those that actually fired BREN. Since the weapon had to be cocked, how would you know when the last round was fired from a magazine? Is it entirely possible that a gunner could fire a burst and not know that he was out? (h) Stoppages and immediate action. 1. A well cared for gun with the gas regulator set at the correct hole (normally No. 2) will rarely stop except on account of an empty or a badly filled magazine. 2. In all cases of a stoppage the Immediate Action is: (i) Pull back cocking-handle. (ii) Remove the magazine. (iii) Press the trigger. (iv) Examine magazine; if empty or badly filled change it. (v) Put magazine on and cock gun. (vi) Continue firing. Note. Possible causes: empty magazine, badly filled magazine, missfire, bad ejection, hard extraction. from the link I posted..Any BREN gunners here? I repost this because it seems there isnt a difference between stoppages. In a belt fed weapon, it is quite clear whether you have ammo or a jam. I also posted that blurb above from Steve at BTS. He is saying that there are MGs, such as the ones in platoon HQ and the like, that arent really modeled in the game. Jusst because they were present, doesnt mean they are modeled is the point. Similar to what Andrew is saying to JonS. I dont even think that the BREN team has been properly spelled out for what it consists of. Is it tripod mounted? Have 2000 rounds of ammo? 3 man minimum? Lewis

The MOD guys have bloody tank track fixes waiting for you on their websites. The file is CRUNCHIES.bmp. Good luck. You have a great future here at the board. Lewis

OH! I dont know if these are the correct answers? According to my sources, each clip weighs 2 3/4 lbs each. A box with a dozen would weigh 32 lbs plus the weight of the box itself. OH! OH! Can anybody hep us PLEEEEZ? Ive always relied on the charity of strangers in times like this.. (bats eyebrows) Thanks Lewis

BTW, German ammo boxes were specially designed so that two could be carried in one hand. That means a single soldier could carry (with some difficulty, like we simulate) 1,000 rounds all by himself. If three men in a HMG42 Team carried such a load you get 3,000 rounds right there. I posted a pic of the bren box earlier. Wonder what the weight could be and how it would compare to the above quote? Lewis

Michael, Platoon HQs did indeed have a MG42. This was, however, mostly used as a spare for the platoon. They probably had a belt or two of ammo for the thing, but that is really only good for about one turn's worth of combat Michael, Platoon HQs did indeed have a MG42. Steve ..and.. BTW, we only included the LMG42 as a seperate unit because they were assigned to some formations, such as the AT Company of certain division types. Generally they have no place in a CM battle since they correct numbers are found already in the squads. Steve This is Steve from BTS a year ago (almost to the day). A case could be made that LMG42 (or LMG34 since they may be modeled also as well as all the others) should be replaced by half squads of sorts. The game will change on how to purchase units also. Lets call that a big CHANGE. Examples are the need to purchase units as entities etc. I really would like to see some BTS input here but again, its the weekend and I dont have enough bucks to go out. Lewis

Any BREN gunner's here?

"If I were you I would be careful about the comparisons you draw between my comments in this thread and my comments in the Bren thread" (shaking) LOL!!!!

Michael, Platoon HQs did indeed have a MG42. This was, however, mostly used as a spare for the platoon. They probably had a belt or two of ammo for the thing, but that is really only good for about one turn's worth of combat Michael, Platoon HQs did indeed have a MG42. Steve ..and.. BTW, we only included the LMG42 as a seperate unit because they were assigned to some formations, such as the AT Company of certain division types. Generally they have no place in a CM battle since they correct numbers are found already in the squads. Steve Heres Steve from a year ago discussing extra MGs. [ 08-25-2001: Message edited by: Username ]

Another question is how long does it take to change the barrel?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trench Knife: Hey Lew, this was stated in the original post (page 1...?). I know it's terribly burdensome to actually read the posts of the weak & infirm, however - this thread was started with the hope that CM3 might acknowledge the dedicated Bren team. Assuredly, I will pay close attention to machine guns (light & otherwise) in CMBB and, after the engine rewrite, i'll be even more interested. .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes and my point was that all the discussion was in light of the present system. I was the first to point out: In CMBB, MGs will have increased leathality with the improvements to rates of fire, covered arc, etc. To give this to clip fed weapons is a bit much. Its on page 4. The discussion is about a game two iterations into the future and was using the present form as the basis for arguments. Excuse me for trying to get the conversation on track! For all we know LMG42 might be sh*tcanned and NO-ONE could get them. I am not the only one coming up with valid reasoning why this class of weapon should be the cutoff. read through the thread again. There have been lots of other things discussed here (ignoring the horror of reading page 2) that are interesting. Squad splitting being interesting. Perhaps squad split penalties should only affect one half of the squad. Perhaps split should be replaced by two choices: Recon: Small lightly armed element detaches (example:sten and 3 riflemen or M1carbine and 3 garands) leaving the rest. These recon boys get the morale hit only. Deploy: Automatic weapons in one group and rifleman in the other. Fractions depending on the size of auto group. So if a squad has 2 BAR maybe it 'splits' 5+remainder. If it has 1 Bren then its 3+remainder. just trying to get some reality into the discussion. And I am part of the discussion and have contributed useful info. Lewis

"Despite this being irrelevant, it is also wrong. As I have said numerous times, when BTS enhances the realism of machineguns, they will all become more useful, including the Bren. As for jams, I thought all machineguns were subject to jamming. Again, you are singling the Bren out for attack." Aitken Slight correction old boy, I brought it up numerous times. I brought it up initially. I brought up the fact that 28 rounds was the realistic magazine fill. And if someone were to be following the other thread, your comments here might be taken as another flip-flop. In the other thread, you claim that the new MG effectiveness has no bearing on the matters and here you are actually saying that BRENs should be eligible. No. Jams are a peculiarity of support weapons. Might want to investigate that. Hence my comments about painting yourself into the corner. In the other thread you distinctly said LMG42 and BREN were comparable. Then when everyone scoffed you lower the rod and say they are reguraly the same (or soemthing inane). So what do you mean? you accuse Slappy of rounding up or down? What are you doing? raising the bridge or lowering the water? Should BREN be able to run? Should BREN be able to jam? Watch out, you might get what you're after. Lewis PS question to those that actually fired BREN. Since the weapon had to be cocked, how would you know when the last round was fired from a magazine? Is it entirely possible that a gunner could fire a burst and not know that he was out? (h) Stoppages and immediate action. 1. A well cared for gun with the gas regulator set at the correct hole (normally No. 2) will rarely stop except on account of an empty or a badly filled magazine. 2. In all cases of a stoppage the Immediate Action is: (i) Pull back cocking-handle. (ii) Remove the magazine. (iii) Press the trigger. (iv) Examine magazine; if empty or badly filled change it. (v) Put magazine on and cock gun. (vi) Continue firing. Note. Possible causes: empty magazine, badly filled magazine, missfire, bad ejection, hard extraction. from the link I posted.. [ 08-25-2001: Message edited by: Username ]

quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Username wrote: Many people , including myself, are suggesting that also! Furthermore, if there were 'extra' BRENs in the TOE, then they should be in squads so that when you split them, the squad will have a half squad with two BRENs in it and the remainder having rifle/smg. I have also suggested that platoon HQ could have a built in BREN or maybe the other HQs. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It is you who is making all the ahistorical suggestions. There is no precedent for putting the extra Brens from the TO&E into squads or HQ units, but bizarrely you are desperate to see this happen. Anything but model them individually." Again, repeat, NOT JUST ME. Reread the Bren thread, other people say as much also. In fact, on the first page of the thread! Its not just me. you are focusing on me because you feel that gives you leverage because of some percieved 'board villian' you make me out to be. Also note your flip-flopping about equating the MG42 with the BREN in that thread. As other people as well as myself have pointed out, the BREN support weapon would be no more of an asset than the presently modeled CMBO MG42 LMG (available separately). In fact, it might even be weaker. It would be subject to Jams. The future modeled LMG/HMG belt weapons will probably have different characteristics. Even you have admitted that the BREN should not get these attributes as much (after flip-flopping in the other thread). I brought up this issue and I have 'say' in threads so don't tell me where I can post and don't advise others how to think. It only makes you look WEak. At this point, you have painted yourself into some corner where you will accept nothing but correctness and weakness at all costs. Unfortunately the game has abstractions in many areas. You never call out from the top of holy mount BREN to the gods of BTS. You rather want to have everyone here think the way you do instead. Why dont you put some effort into contacting BTS? You arent changing my mind with your heavy handed converting at the stake mentality. Lewis

Search under BREN and my number 1064. I have never claimed to be in a commonwealth army. I have never fired a BREN. Its just so laughable what the BRENNERS are going to come up with next. Dont agree with me? Well your military experience is in question. "Think our description of firing our weapons is complicated, well, you have something to learn yank. (I do want to get the chance to fire a PIAT one day)" Ponderous Lewis

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IPA: It's a tactical issue not a technical one. British infantry section tactics, did and AFAIK still do, split the rifle group and LMG group into two separate tactical entities (criticised as archaic on the other thread). One to support while one moves forward (frog hopping?). The original request was for squads to be separated into these historical groupings when using the split command, so that historical tactics could be simulated in CM. I for one do not want separately purchaseable bren teams, as IMHO that is ahistoric. Peter <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Many people , including myself, are suggesting that also! Furthermore, if there were 'extra' BRENs in the TOE, then they should be in squads so that when you split them, the squad will have a half squad with two BRENs in it and the remainder having rifle/smg. I have also suggested that platoon HQ could have a built in BREN or maybe the other HQs. Its just that some people here are on some kind of crusade for BREN support weapons and they are not accepting anything else. Read this thread again. Slappy, who I admit to giving a hard time, has not once fallen into the Aitken mindset of non-discussion. Aitken wont accept anything but his own point of view and has even demanded in anothet thread that I stop posting because I wont change to his point of view! How utterly simpleminded! My position is that BREN support weapons will have to wait till after CMBB anyway, so wouldnt it be prudent to see how the face of infantry battle changes before demanding what "has to be" now? But the crusaders want to vilify/marginalize/etc. All very tiring, believe me. Lewis PS Were the Lewis guns ever used in WWII?

About the eye candy above, it will be interesting if BTS decides if the russian LMG gets support weapon status. What is pictured here is very close to that weapon. I was watching the german news the other day and those russian weapons are still tapping away in the Balkans. The BREN had to be cocked between magazines? Good God.. The '30' round clips were only loaded to 28 rounds according to several sources. The gunner (its number 1 to you people) had to do this with which hand? You have to look in for remaining rounds? Please. Great fun on a firing range, I am sure, but like the argument that troops were counting how many rounds were in the bolt action magazines, a bit much under combat conditions. I am beggining to think that british weapons were for well trained peace time armies. But the BREN does have its atributes. I read often about its accuracy when firing automatic at point targets. This would be very useful for supporting a squad. It would be very useful at suppressing a small house. A MG42 could suppress a small two story building in my opinion. Rune posted a british document that pointed out that even the british felt the inferiority to BELT FED weapons. It was largely ignored and much interest has been turned on to me instead. As for myself, do a search. As for belt fed weapons and going-for-broke, BTS has already made comments. Do a search there also. Slappy is right. Theres a lot of politics and ingrained feelings/traditions/etc. here. There has been no BTS feedback on the topic. I would gather up some of that if I were in the BREN camp. Lewis PS About time someone mentioned the LEWIS machineguns.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrew Hedges: I'm in favor of having separate Bren teams if they were a normal thing historically (altough I will add, based on my usage of LMG teams, that they will be pretty useless). But there hasn't really been any evidence in this thread showing that there were standalone Bren teams, other than very unusual situations that the game need not model (i.e., the first squad across the Albert Canal). Possibly there is such evidence, but it didn't make it into the thread because of the meandering path this thread has taken (including the exciting "cite" discussion). But we should find some such evidence before suggesting that BTS do something ahistorical.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thats a foregone conclusion cause all the people here say it was so. The BRENs even had their own mini-APC all to themmselves to facilitate going about the battlefield independantly like taxis looking for fares. The really funny part is that support MGs are subject to JAMMING. As it is modeled now, squad based autos arent. The german LMGs that are support weapons are almost useless and if there was a BREN support weapon, it would suffer alot worse if reduced to one man. Again, I will wait and see what CMBB is like before counting my chickens. Lewis

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken: Sorry for confusing you with some simple logic. The precise model is of no consequence. The picture I chose was simply a clear depiction of a soldier carrying a submachinegun. Slapdragon obviously understood that. You, on the other hand, would predictably attempt to confuse the issue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not quite. First you post a pic and say "Slapdragon: A simple question. Not a trick, I am just interested to hear what you think. What kind of weapon is this man holding?" But then go onto some roundup/round-down BS. The only thing simple here was your argument. The pic, btw, is not clear, the mag is out the side on the weapon away from the photographer. From the angle of the pic, it isnt clear. But you are just showing everyone your true colors by doing something like this. First you say "oh trust me, really I care what you think" then come off with your weak "you round some weapons up and some down, hmm, whys that?". Very poor show old boy (I am starting to tawk like these blokes ). Theres no hard and fast dilineation between weapons. But a weapon having a belt feed, and the resulting amount of short call firepower that a belted weapon can deliver DOES make it a class apart from clip fed weapons. I am glad that the game, whether intentionally or not, at this point models it that way. Hopefully it will in the future! Lewis

No, please, go right ahead and choke..

grasping for any straw now I see. Instead of posting just pics, why not post some stats on the weapon too? Is it a 9mm? Whats its rate of fire? mag fill? etc? Doesnt seem like Slappy is that familiar with the weapon (nor am I). I dont think he is rounding up but probably not that familiar with the weapon. he does , in fact, call it a SMG but gives a reason for calling it an automatic carbine. For you to go off on some discourse built around that begs desperation.. Lewis [ 08-24-2001: Message edited by: Username ]

Right. Lets wait and see.

The US had no 76mm shermans and only M10s in June. There were no M36 and no tungsten ammo at all. US TACAIR was also lacking in cooperation. US armored experience was still very limited before D-Day. It woudl have been a shock to the troops.

"We set out to establish a principle which hopefully BTS will take into account for future CM releases featuring British forces. That was all fine and well until you hijacked the thread with your bizarre argument that on no account should BTS allow us to use the Bren in one of its historical roles." Lets repeat this again like a Mantra. The game will be changing how it handles support MGs. I dont believe that the use of the BREN compares with other belt fed weapons. Particulary the ability to go-for-broke, continuous fire and switching targets. BTS has said some of these effects will be given to squad weapons in the squad. But at a reduced rate. Thats where the BREN should be. In a squad element. So the prudent thing to do is see how the new weapons effectiveness plays out, how the game handles other examples like the soviet LMGs and also how support weapons are EVEN purchased in the future (which is also going to CHANGE). One step at a time chaps. Then see what happens after that. David. You are the weakest (MG) link. Good Bye. lewis

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon: By the way, who ever said they shoulder fired a Bren is pretty tough. I got to pick one up and they seemed a bit heavy. I never was able to shoulder the M-60 except in a theatrical pose, I never would have wanted to shoot it from the shoulder.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ive seen the SEALs (who use a lightened M60) do a drill where they pull out by blazing away with these lighted weapons from the shoulder. They fall back in groups covering each other while making their way back to the rubber baots. They arent firing bursts but near full auto. They have some kind of canvas ammo holder and use the weapon as a single man type. In any case, it would be very difficult to do this on the move. Lewis

I think it would depend on if the tank was an aircooled radial engine.

I had mentioned a similar idea in the "Fox" thread. Have a BREN squad of 8 men with two BRENS and split it. Having all BRENS seems "a bit much" as you all say. Still, noone here has really said what they want. They think CMBO is going to be reworked? Lewis