[wien instead of berlin????]

Maybe he mistook those units from the home barracks of the LAH in Berlin as the whole division.

Gruß

Joachim

[CMBB: Do you see something gamey here?]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Night:

However, in QBs, the attacker's setup zone is exactly 1/2 the defender's zone. So you can measure this as the defender and know exactly how close his "starting line" will be. Surely the attacker will place most of his units on this line. So I still generally think it is a little unreasonable to prep bombard the attacker in his setup zones.

1.) Yes, and the defender is usually on the hilltops or close to the flags .

2.) No attacker has to put all of his troops at the start line.

With infantry forces, it saves several turns, but they usually can hide. When spread out (read: RL tactics), receiving some incoming in turn 1 is as bad as receiving it in some later turn. Advancing across the open always allows the defender to unleash his arty. I doubt anybody would find it gamey if the arty came down in turn 4 just 200 m behind the start line.

If a CM player wants to ride his troops as passengers, he can move them very quickly across the whole map. There is absolutely no need to park vehicles directly at the start line.

3.) Packing units in view of the enemy is usually gamey and everything is done to ensure a hidden assembly area. Had the attacker spread out his forces, the defender would still have been able to unload lots of arty - with results usually not worth spendign a whole FO

Please ask your opponent if he would have travelled on these tanks in RL.

If yes, he's an id...

If no, he is gamey!

Gruß

Joachim

[Like Big Scenarios? Check out my stuff at the Depot.]

Ok, so I got the setup for the 120 turn battle. Some thoughts about it...

First thing I saw was May 1942 - cooool! I just might have some armor capable of piercing any of his armor.

Huge map. Open country. Infantry force type. Clear sky, dry(?) ground.

Time to man the rant stations!

Checking the terrain, the first thing I find are some excellent lines of communication - on his side of the map.

A big forest in the center around a big flag, 2 big flags on each flank - in open terrain.

Mostly open terrain in front of the woods. Little cover around my starting positions. Then a big surprise: Damp ground.

Checking my own forces...

What the hell do you do with PaK 3,7cm vs enemy infantry??? Ok. There might be some bunkers. But how to transport my guns???? Now I know why it is a 120 turn monster - this is enough time to shove them across the whole map!!!

Then I had to guess what the enemy has - and where exactly he is. This is a semi-historic scenario, and as of now I have not seen what the other side has (and I guess this will stay so for about the next year )

From my force I deduce he has a btn of infantry, the briefing suggests it has losses of 20% or above. It is dug in in the central forest with outposts guarding some patches of woods and trees covering the routes to the 3 flags. (If I was a scen designer, I would have used 2 or 3 Soviet setup zones to ensure that there is a limited number of outposts and I would have fixed the trenches in some clusters...). But maybe he has his full map side at his disposal, and can put the trenches wherever he wants them.

Then I'll probably face some bunkers and infantry guns, maybe some Soviet 7,6cm Pak.

And of course some arty - with TRPs. If he has an abundant amount of them, any attack will falter...

Now after reading any post of JasonC, especially those regarding advances across open terrain, I'll complete my setup. Then I'll check most of Fionn's articles re maneuverism and apply them to my abundant armor force.

Gentlemen, this place is idealy suited for an attack. The bolshewist hordes will crumble in front of my massive onslaught.

My armor will easily be able to take out any of his armor - and I doubt I will loose a single tank! :cool:

I'll fight war, and the red horseman will return upon a lame pony, and his sword will be used as a plough!

Gruß

Joachim

[Just how realistic is all this anyhow?]

Originally posted by GreenAsJade:

Then someone else said "Actually, there wouldn't be any forces left from a typical CMBB battle to continue a campaign!".

That rang really true. Every battle I play win or lose (mostly lose, but hey!) there are hardly any forces left whatsoever. Is that _really_ how things went?

GaJ.

Playing campaigns based on some external rule sets, I do not play to win a single battle but to win as many battles as possible. To do the latter, I have to preserve my forces (plus you start to love that crack tank crew). If I have to stop the attack or retreat instead of defending, I do it. Losses above 15% in a given battle are rare for me (excpet for pre-battles casualties I roll according to the rules).

Additionaly, rules can favor a more cautious approach by subtracting points for losses of AFVs and guns.

A scenario is a very different thing. But even here pushing for all flags is often not the best strategy. You can take all flags and wipe out all of your opponents troops and still loose the scenario.

Gruß

Joachim

[CMBB Area Fire question]

Originally posted by CMplayer:

One thing that irritates me about area fire is the way it's not 'sticky' if the ordnance decides to target something else.

I've got a 50mm mortar, area firing the spot where a gun is located. It then decides to stop area firing to target the gun. Then the gun disappears and the mortar stops firing. Bad Tac AI. Bad.

What's even worse, it seems like the mortar team has to start again from scratch ranging in the target each time it goes from area fire, to targetting the gun, and back again (even though the two points are a couple of meters from each other).

Set a very small covered arc for the mortar (or gun, or tank) and the area target will (usually) stick.

For mortars it works best with HQs as spotters, so there is no threat to the mortar, it will probably never see anything itself and it will not shift.

Gruß

Joachim

[Scenario detailed units list]

I do about the same for big scenarios.

But I add the leader bonus to your list: Command bonus is good for scouting, stealth for ambush or flanking, morale for the assault troops or the crucial position (or guns!). Combat bonus helps everywhere.

This list is the base for any decision in the setup and my plan.

If I have less than 2 Coys, I usually just evaluate the plts as a whole.

E.g.

"B1 Cmd+2 Mo+1 S+1 Cbt+0 VRC- PzGr42"

is B Company, 1st plt: a PzGr42 plt with a Vet HQ with the denoted bonus, 1st squad regular, 2nd squad crack, 3rd squad missing. If there are initial losses, the unit gets a marker (light/hvy losses).

If there is a huge number of MG42 or PPSh's in the plt, it gets another marker (Long range, short range).

Hvy plts are listed with groups for each weapon type.

Coy or btn leaders are listed separately.

Gruß

Joachim

[Good QB ME 1000 pnt Combined Arms maps?]

Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry:

any suggestions?

EDIT: CMBB maps only

Try the map-packs at BCR. There is a categorized list of the maps. Most come in 7 versions, one for each battle type, including ME.

[Like Big Scenarios? Check out my stuff at the Depot.]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Sure - I dig out the other one Cory sent to me and send you a setup tonight.

We'll see if your turnrates can possibly beat mine in slovenliness

Mail with my email address is out.

In a 120+ turn monster I'd expect finishing sometime before christmas .

BTW: Do you know "my" forces and setup zones or just yours?

Gruß

Joachim

[ November 12, 2003, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Scarhead ]

[Like Big Scenarios? Check out my stuff at the Depot.]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Okhvat Station my PBEM partner just disappeared for a long time, not sure if I can pick it up again.

Gorodok - that is the one in AG North? If so, I can comment a bit on it.

I'll see if I find somebody else to play for the others.

I like the maps (would like them even more if you took my advice ) and I like the whole setting. The trouble is to find a PBEM partner for the big ones.

Me likes big battles.

If you don't mind occasional slow turn rates, I'll give it a try. (Occassional TCP/IP in the evening or on weekends - if I figure out how it works).

Gruß

Joachim

[German optics in the desert, total allied destruction?]

Originally posted by CMplayer:

About the open-topped tank destroyers, I thought they weren't meant to be used in close terrain without infantry support. That was a lesson I learned very quickly (and painfully, if a bad gaming experience can be called painful) in CMBO: to let the TDs snipe from range. The best was for them to engage while the enemy tanks were busy fighting something else closer. Then the TDs can pick off the tanks with ease. [/QB]

Which was exactly my tactics vs the TDs. Either the tanks/JPz/StuGs got them, or those threats close got them.

Gruß

Joachim

[Where are my Russian masses?]

Human waves in CM do work - both in QBs and the Editor:

QB: Allied Parameters are Low experience, Infantry only, attack. Give the AI a bonus of at least 100%. Number of turns at least 50 for a medium sized summer map - to allow the Soviets to find your positions.

Then wait.

Do use mech or infantry force type for yourself. Combined arms if you are less daring.

Make sure the AI has enough points to buy full Co's or even btns. It needs the leaders.

Scenario Editor:

Buy the Soviets lots of conscripts%greens. Group them in 3 waves, each at least 10 turns later than the first.

Or play a campaign with BCR. I promise you will see lots of those fights...

AAR for a recent QB with those campaign rules:

Even on the offense, my armor-heavy force (about 3000 points, 8 tanks, 4 guns and a reinforced Co of motorized PzGrens in '42) was stopped in a ruined city by 1400 partisans. I ran out of ammo, my infantry was stripped from the tanks in dense terrain, I had but little smoke. Was only able to contest 1/3rd of the flags, kills made it a lucky draw.

A more realistic scenario:

What is probably more realistic is the GD Romanian Defence scenario. The intro says a first wave of 8 T34 is followed by 20+ T34s and 300 grunts. GD forces consist of 2 PaK 75/L48 and two infantry companies, one of them at 60% - plus lots of StuKas, including Rudel.

You've got a wave of T34s followed by a moderate amount of infantry. That moderate amount of infantry (acutally about the same amount than what the Axis player has) will look like a big human wave to the few survivors and annihilate the remnants of what the T34s left over pretty soon.

(Spoiler: Move the PaK to the trenches. You can rotate fixed trenches and get PaKs behind a crest in a trench. )

Gruß

Joachim

[ November 11, 2003, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Scarhead ]

[Our Backs to the Volga - ongoing German AAR]

Originally posted by Brent Pollock:

Turn 7 results:

Right Flank:

I’ve lost the 20 to 30 guys to this artillery, and the PzIV stopped after one smoke round…thanks guys…big help.

Did you set a covered arc to ensure only a big threat cancels the smoke order? IMHO any possible target showing up will be targetted - with the usual result of sitting idle afterwards.

Gruß

Joachim

[Everything about operations]

IIRC It might happen that the btn and rgt reserves appear in the same battle. If one side got a really severe trashing.

Note that units outside or moved back to the setup zones are not supplied.

Gruß

Joachim

[Biltong's Campaign Rules]

Originally posted by Haohmaru:

Sorry for the newbie questions but I have another one. I am a bit confused about allocating after battle experience. According to note 5 regarding casualties inflicted by armor:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Note 5: All the Units listed below gain 1 Experience Point for Allied Casualties caused from and including the first number below and an additional Exp. Point from and including the 2nd number: Armored vehicles with armament smaller than or equal to 35mm as well as armored vehicles such as half tracks, armed with MG's only: 3+ / 10+ Casualties Armored vehicles with armament from and including 35mm up to and including 50mm as well as all flak vehicles and flammpanzers: 6+ / 20+ Casualties

So from what I understand of this, a tank may only get experience if a minimum number of casualties greater than 1 is reached. However, the example then contradicts this:

A tank knocks out a pillbox (+1) causing 2 enemy casualties (+1), but then gets knocked out itself (-1) and the crew are 'Rattled' (-1). Luckily they get Overall Exp. Gain of +1. Total Experience Gain for the crew: +1.

I am confused because according to the above note #5, 2 casualties should not be enough to gain +1, (min. 3) so there should only be +1 for the pillbox, not the casualties. Am I correct in assuming this is a typo here or am I interpreting the rules wrong?

Cheers,

Haoh </font>

[Biltong's Campaign Rules]

Originally posted by Haohmaru:

Thanks for your reply. I've already gone ahead and chosen a "medium" sized map from the list, but in future I will choose something bigger if I get a force multiplier. I look forward to playing some maps which improve the ai's performance, just as in the discussion in the other thread about ai, I really want to have more of a challenge against it, that's why I'm looking forward to trying this campaign. I spend so much time playing combined arms in qb, it'll be good to have some variety.

Haoh

IMHO the easiest way for a better attacking AI are dynamic flags at 2000 points. You have to hold any flag as favourable exchange rates at half the flags held won't win the battle. Or have mobiel reserves. Some of the maps have dynamic lags, other can be adjusted.

Gruß

Joachim

[Biltong's Campaign Rules]

Originally posted by Haohmaru:

Hi there,

I've just downloaded Biltong's rules and am starting to get into it for the first time. I have a question about the map packs though. For my first battle I am supposed to play a medium sized map, but my force size multiplier is x5. Should I choose a medium map from the list of available ones, or should I choose something bigger to compensate for this?

Cheers,

Haoh

The map size (large, med, small) in the map packs does not correspond to the map size in CM.

Be warned that some custom maps play different than generated maps. Depending on terrain, flag positions and setup zones. (The AI might find better places to defend or avenues of apporach on custom maps.)

Take something big (except if it is a city battle).

Remembers me that I had started a list on map sizes for different force sizes. IIRC the battle type did not matter... Now where have I put this... Probably accidentally found its way to the round file :mad: ...

Oh... if you select a map with dynamic flags. These don't work in QBs. The real flag is randomly choosen.

BTW: Have fun!

Gruß

Joachim

[Using Area fire rather than direct fire vs. foxhole?]

Originally posted by vanwag:

In a scenario where I had to advance with tanks across an open field in the face of several emplaced AT guns, I tried repeatedly to use direct fire to destroy them.

The icon would show a very low % 'to hit' or even 0%, and I was having no luck. As soon as I switched to area fire and set the target icon right next to the foxhole, the gun crews quickly retreated after a few near hits!

Question: At what hit % do you usually switch to this technique? Does it work vs. any hardened target (heavy bldg, bunker, infantry in crater/foxhole/trench)?

Thanks for any input into this subject!

Maybe the target was pinned or hiding behind a wall or ridge. Exposure is 0% then. As you can't hit a target you can't see (as it is 0% exposed to your LOS), area firing to a place you see is much better.

Probably some remnant of the "ATG on reverse slope bug".

Just imagine the tank saw the gun, the gun was pulled back a bit and the tank can't see it anymore. As he knows the gun is there, a TC would order area fire. Just what you do.

If you are absolutely convinved no other better target will appear, use a small (say 20m ahead of your tank) covered arc after setting the area target. This way only some incoming AP should stop your tank from firing at the target.

Gruß

Joachim

[Who is the HQ?]

Originally posted by RawRecruit:

I actually quite like the idea of the gutsy CO leading from the front and showing 'his boys' how it's done.

However, about suppression and the 10 man squad versus the 4 man squad, is it easier to suppress 4 men than 10, say with a single MG mounted on a tank? Smaller target I agree, but I would assume that 10 men would be a little too spread out to cover with a single gun and would have more available bodies to lob grenades, demo charges, stones, insults...! Plus, surely ten men would be able to come at an AFV from too many angles for it to cope with.

Being an 'armchair general' I can't really say how it would work in real life, so the above is just some thoughts. If there is any good reference material around about how infantry worked on the smallest scale then I'd really like to enlighten myself somewhat...!

If a tank approaches a squad or team in cover, the squad can't come from every angle - they come from one direction. If one of the 10 gets spotted, an MG blasts away, suppressing others.

In a 10-man squad, it is much easier to say "hey, let the others do the job, I'll keep my head down for a while". As an NCO or officer, everybody is looking at you. If you cower, everybody else will take cover, too.

Besides, if you want to be brave, it is much better if your superiors see it. The leader has to write a report, so if he did the bravery, he will write that in his report anyway so his superiors will notice.

Green soldiers tend to bunch up. If the vet in the squad found perfect cover and concelament for one man, you bet that the two conscripts will run there to reveal the position.

Oh, I am an armchair general, too. But some of these reasons apply outside the military, too

Gruß

Joachim

[Our Backs to the Volga - ongoing German AAR]

Originally posted by Brent Pollock:

As to sewer movement, I'm left wondering what you've used it for. I first tried the artillery avoidance tactic as the Russians: worked like a charm. Use HQs with Stealth Bonus and keep the moves to < 4 minutes. You will likely lose fewer guys to sewer disorientation than to the HE shower. Remember: you can still emerge from the sewer into rubble if the rubble was formed after the Sewer move order was issued - check the archives for my posting on who can use sewer movement and rubble's effect. In our previous match, once Steve saw that I was using sewer movement, he started using it to cross 20 m gaps between buildings. This paid off to the tune of one T60 and two T34s getting whacked by infantry grenades: bloody brilliant!

Keep the discussion going, that's what the thread's here for...

I used it in a test with GE plts from reg to crack with different leader bonusses. Long range (20 minutes). Losses above 10%. Units scattered all over.

In the two live events, I lost too many men. Plt sent across 10 m, each time a vet or crack squad under double stealth bonus got lost.

Maybe I'll give it another try...

Gruß

Joachim

[Campaign Rules]

Originally posted by NavyDiver:

I think I am looking for the same thing that Portero is. Campaign system for CMBO play against AI for June 44 to May 45. Like the various campaign systems for CMBB. Roll dice and pick enemy type, quality, etc. Track core force, etc. I do not own CMBB but see that CMBO has less flexibility in the quick battle editor. For example I cannot edit ammo in QB, only in custom scenario. But then I don't get random for enemy force, right? Have any smart guys made a utility to somehow edit units in QB before hitting play? Anybody already worked out a CMBO campaign system? Not PBEM rules. I searched FAQ, forum, various websites. No joy. Starting my own CMBO campaign system up. We'll see...

Never heard of any campaign for CMBO. If you want to do one, then you have to research (or guestimate) the following parameters:

Weather on the frontlines. Either a given path with weather for each day or week, or you allow for some randomness.

Likelihood of combat in a given month (i.e. there is a lull in October '44.

Influences how many battles are fought in a given month.

Likelihood of who attacks whom:

Who is on the offense - axis or allies

Who is fighting along your troops (aux forces from Steel Panthers...)

Whom are you fighting (Volkssturm, PzGren, ...)

How big are the battles? Only small scale fighting or the huge ones?

Correlation of these factors. Ie less fighting in rain or the attacker has more armor than the defender...

Special events (Market garden, Siegfried line etc) influence it.

What terrain was fought over.

Now mix this into some existing Rule set (e.g. BCR) and you have your own campaign. If you want to add this into BCR - feel free to do so. If you have questions - feel free to ask.

If your sig line is true... prepare to neglect your kids ...

No, just a joke. The rules don't take the time, doing some automated spreadsheet in excel takes time.

Gruß

Joachim

[Does the crates inside the factories provide cover?]

Originally posted by Monwar:

Do they represent different machinaries and obstacles normally present inside a factory? Do I get any cover bonus if behind them?

Do you get a bonus (in CM) from exactly being behind a tree?

Do all 10 men of a squad fit behind the same tree or crate?

Sqauds/teams are abstracted. The icon appears in the place where the center of the squad is.

Tiles are abstracted and the same bonus applies for the whole tile. If the tile is providing cover, it depends how deep into the cover you are (A squad some metres in the woods is less exposed than at the egde).

BTW: Reminds me of that only joke... 2 Statisticians at the frontline. One standing a metre to the left of a tree, other one a metre to the right. "Regarding statistics, we've taken cover behind that tree!"

Gruß

Joachim

[ October 30, 2003, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: Scarhead ]

[Who is the HQ?]

Originally posted by RawRecruit:

And I suppose as these guys get pasted then they are replaced by the most experienced members of the platoon squads, thus maintaining the higher quality!

The GE plt HQ teams were made up of Plt HQ (Officer or NCO, depicted by the guy with the pistol in CM), some NCO (SMG in CM) and 2 runners (carbines). At least on paper.

There were not even enough NCOs in the Wehrmacht to command every squad, so there were not 4 of them in a HQ team!

It was important to have the experienced men in the squads, too, as they could teach the others "on job". Remember "All quiet on the Western Front"? The privates herding the fresh recruits? That's the best way to handle recruits, especially when they did not have proper training.

Gruß

Joachim

[ October 30, 2003, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: Scarhead ]

[Our Backs to the Volga - ongoing German AAR]

Nice AAR.

Using sewers as cellars... Don't think it is worth it, but nice as an insurance. At least they will come back unsuppressed. If they return.

Gruß

Joachim

[When did CMBB come out?]

Originally posted by Firefly:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Zitadelle:

Days that will live in infamy....

Indeed, the bloody Germans got it first (19th September 2002) and refused to share it with the rest of Europe for another 4 weeks. </font>

[RT/TB hybrid...how does it work?]

Originally posted by Scythe:

Thx guys I'm going to download the demo ASAP but I have a couple more questions.

In QB games (or whatever the random map games are called) do you "buy" your units? How about in scenarios/operations?

QBs: You can choose your won or let the computer select them for you.

Scenario/Operations: Trrops bought by the designer. Scenario maps can be used in QBs. You can import the map instead of auto-generatint a new map, and you can import and add troops in QB mode - besides from editing the scen, of course.

Finally do your units gain experience as you go through an operation?

No. A few hours of battle don't increase the experience of a unit up one level.

There are user made campaign-generator (needing some bookkeeping and spreadsheets or programs) trying to emulate things like the old Sttel Panthers campaigns.

Do units which are veteran cost more points (if you buy them) than green units?

Yes. Each level is about 15% more.

Do you see seperate characteristics for each and every soldier under your command (like in an RPG)?

No. The smallest unit is the team. you see how many weapons the team has, but that's it. You can see the capabilites of plt leaders (or higher) regarding stealth, morale, command and combat. Each "bonus" affects the troops under his command as they behave one level better in that regard.

Gruß

Joachim

[ October 30, 2003, 07:32 AM: Message edited by: Scarhead ]