Joachim
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Posts posted by Joachim
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Other ways to improve your ATGs performance (from CMBB):
Use covered arcs to prevent them firing.
Set target manually. Check the hit prob, the kill prob and how long the target will remain in sight. With a 5cm ATG, you probably want side shots. Hit probs below 30% are no good, excpet many on one. If the "Kill" is less than OK or good, ignore the target.
Hide your gun.
Put a bonus HQ in command. The HQ does the spotting, the gun unhides just before firing. Combat bonus increases hit prob, stealth for hiding (though a blast will give away your position anyway), morale for not pinning or routing
Keep infantry "eyes" away from your gun (use MG fire, arty etc). Strip the inf from the tanks.
Put the gun behind a crest or wall (the enemy will often hit the ground in front of you). If you choose the location right, a pinned or hiding gun has 0% exposure, often allwoing to hide again after a few shots.
Set a covered arc and try to hide when you fear lots of incoming in the next turn. ... though not vs humans, they'll use area fire.
A great position is behind a crest with no viz to the valley before you but with good viz to the slope leading into the valley. You can score top hits and negate slope effects as the armor is facing downwards. Plus the nearby "eyes" in the valley can't see you - only those in the slope further back, negating the effect of leading light tanks or infantry scouts.
Avoid placing on likely avenues of approach. Set up so you get flank shots on those routes.
Leave the light armor to 20mm AA from way back.
Surprise is your element. Even at 2:1 points rates you can often trade an ATG for a single medium tank. Wait till you have a sure shot.
Numbers count. Either use a Pak Front or unhide your Pak when your armor opens up.
Possible plan:
Targets sighted in favorable positions.
Order small rotate command to ATG so it faces away from targets. This is just to make sure it opens up 15-20 secs into the turn after the tanks arrive.
Order tanks forward with hunt command, so they arrive just before the gun opens up. Next turn the gun hides, hoping all tanks target your tanks. The tanks reverse out of sight.
Some AAR to show "Timing is important!" and the AIs problems with handling well-used ATGs.
For CMBB there is the GD Romanian defence scenario. 30+tanks vs 2 Pak40, a few StuKas and some 'schrecks. Both PaK in trenches behind a crest. The crest blocking some LOS, but most routes had to cross LOS somewhere. Detailed info about attacker in the briefing. The ATGs opened up on the first 8 tanks at 1200m+, killing some. Then they went on hide. Some incoming rounds were ignored due to hide, covered arcs and the best HQs were detached to the ATGs.
Bulk of enemy armor appeared. StuKas heard above. Targetted OB mortars on tanks. After the first StuKa attack and a chaos leading to closed hatches and tanks moving in all directions, cancelled the OB mortars and used HMGs to close the last hatches. ATGs opened up with LOS to only a few tanks. Next turn saw me shooting, but when too many tanks came into sight, the ATGs went on hide again. StuKa attacks. ATGs open up. StuKas attack. Too many T34 in sight - keep hiding.
The AI bunches up the armor, allowing for many on one. But once you acquired one target, the next targets range is known. Thus you get several first shot hits.
Final score was 14 tanks for one ATG. It was destroyed, but the crew was unharmed. The other one got 9 tanks and stayed alive, but with one battle casualty. Some close moments when enemy arty went for one of the guns. From AAR map it seems an early StuKa bomb had killed an FO.
StuKas were not that effective. But many shocked crews, closed hatches and immo'd tanks. The latter were easy targets and often bailed on the next threat.
HTH
Gruß
Joachim
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As an attacker, you will probably face dug in troops. I'd prefer having lots of bullets keeping a big area suppressed than a few bullets that can't penetrate into anything but the top 10 inch of the trenches anyway.Originally posted by Berlichtingen:Responding to Charlie Rock,
Two things that blow that theory away...
1) You're going to find damned few areas where your engagement rages are going to exceed the effective range of the MG42
2) With the exception of thick stone walls, there ain't much on a battlefield that's gonna stop the 8mm Mauser round.
Beaten zone is based purely on rounds into an area. A Vickers would be better at it than an M2
As a defender, a 20mm will suit me even better vs stone walls. It will not just penetrate the walls but create more flaking.
The .50cal is a singular weapon in WW2, but a combination of weapons in German stock can fill at least 99% of its roles.
If you compare it 1:1, a plt might prefer any of them. But if you face the choice between 12 .50cals or a combo of 2 20mm AA and 10 HMG42, I guess most would choose the latter. Just like a combo of .30cals and .50cals would be preferred to .30cals only or .50cals only.
The 20mm will force the enemy to run, and the MG42 will prevent that. IMHO this combo works better in most cases than a combo of .50 and .30.
Gruß
Joachim
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Well, I prefer campaigns... that's why I play/continue BCR in CMBB.Originally posted by Bruce70:Very funny.
You know very well what I am talking about... I hope
Just in case it was not meant to be a joke (unlikely on this forum, but you never know), I am after information on any changes (apart from consmetic - I had better be specific this time
) to the Quick Battle system or to the battle results screen. CMAK has no improvements on that or you would have read about it...
So I'm still considering whether to buy it or not.
Gruß
Joachim
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Congratulations from over here.
Ahhh.... South of Kharkov scenario.... sounds very interesting.
wOOt??? Without a working email? And so few fortifications.... (intel says 'thanks!' to a certain bug) or about as many fortifications as there is an Allied bonus in the scen...Originally posted by Andreas:I think this is the point where I am supposed to say:
'w00t!'
Or sumfink. Finally my life is whole again.
Gruß
Joachim
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You're welcome. Please keep us updated on the effects of the "assault" setting.Originally posted by Mark Gallear:Thanks Joachim and Sergi
Gruß
Joachim
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I set one 50Cal.MG and bazooka at the Marchel-Douvena barn at the crook in the road towards Soy. Another like team at the Richel house on Rue Des Ecoles St. and Barvaux road. Modrack,s two lights were located in the corner of Rue Haut and Ecoles St's behind the Ecole Libre. They could cover my out post at the corner. Smith's two tanks were behind the Dr.Duchateou home. Another 50cal.and bazooka team in the Rossignon home facing the barn to cover that team.Originally posted by PeterX:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Sorry, but the AAR fails to prove that zooks were fired from inside houses.
Sounds to me like it was intended to fire from the house.
Actually, on rereading, it's not clear. The narrator was in a halftrack, or 'track' as he calls to it. Nevertheless, he refers to his radio as knocked out. A possibilty missing for any AFV in the current engine. Not that I think it's a big deal, but would be a desirable and realistic refinement to add to CMx. </font>Plus the broken radio is not in a tank. It's the infantry commander's radio. -
Me want some barns, too.Originally posted by PeterX:Maybe BFC overmodelled the effects of backblast in CMBO and have backed off in CMAK. If it was that hazardous to post bazooka/faust teams in houses neither side would have done it. Yet, it was common practice, as this late war American AAR attests:
Note, also the broken radio incurred by the narrator's tank. Radio breakdowns/hits/dropouts should be an essential feature in CMx. I gather they were pretty common. Armored platoons would need to pay more attention to maintaining cohesive formations and we'd see a lot less free roamin' then there is now.
And how come we still don't have barns?!! :mad:
Sorry, but the AAR fails to prove that zooks were fired from inside houses.
Plus the broken radio is not in a tank. It's the infantry commander's radio.
The Bazooka team are set up in houses, but do not fire. The barn might be big enough so the backblast has enough room. The House of Dr. D will be made of stone (as usual in that part of Europe, hinted by 18 persons hiding in the cellar - either the house is huge cause 18 people live in it, or it is still one of the bigger and more massive houses in town as others fled to it.) and it will have some big rooms. Maybe that could allow a zook to be fired. But I guess the team has to move outside once a tank shows up close. No need for this arises. While the infatry attacks, they remain inside in better cover.
Gruß
Joachim
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Yeah, it does not explain that AI "bug". I suspect that those units in the open are moved back from their previous locations (probably in zones ahead of the main setup zone) and are fixed there as the AI is not allowed to move them.Originally posted by Mark Gallear:I had a look at the previous post series does not really explain why the AI is putting infantry out in the open when there is loads of cover.
Its an Attack game, Defenders are not dug in, its happening on games 2 onwards as I have setup the Russians in game 1! Although not tried a free setup.
Happens after they get outflanked (details in the other thread).
For testing reasons, I suggest you
1. play it with fixed setup,
2. outflank the defenders,
3. save the end of battle 1,
4. start battle 2,
5. mark where your setup area ends (e.g. putting units in the edges), mark holes in your setup area,
6. save battle 2.
7. Then surrender in both saves and look at the units.
If the same units that are forward in battle 1 are in the open in battle 2, we know where the problem is.
Repeat process with Computer free to place units.
If the problem does not happen when the Computer is free to place units, I suggest we mark this as a bug and hope for a patch. As BFC is rumored to do a patch regarding fortification points ("instant casualties"), there might be hope they fix this, too.
hth
Gruß
Joachim
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More info needed:Originally posted by Mark Gallear:I am designing an operation and am finding that the AI places the defenders out in the open in subsequent games. I have gone for a defensive game but don’t have foxholes as it is early in the War and the Russians belief is that attack is the best form of defence.
I am a bit worried that I have a complicated set-up in the first game with the Germans in one corner and the Russians in three different coloured sectors could be confusing the AI in later games. I also bought Russian troops before I put down these sectors and they appeared on the map in a long line close to the Germans rather than at the other side of the map.
Can anybody who really understands the CMBB Operation system tell me if I am doing something wrong or are the defending infantry out in the open a feature?
:confused:
1.) AI Setup locked or free to place units?
2.) Stupid placements in the first or later battle of the op?
3.) Static, advance or assualt op?
Do a search. There is a recent thread "All baout operations" or something like that. Some questions there, but you could get ideas how to solve or better describe your problems.
Gruß
Joachim
[ November 24, 2003, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: Joachim ]
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Modelling the US arsenal is a problem. But whoever plays the Iraqis wants traffic jams, cutthroats, crowds as cover, suicide bombers and to set the VLs outside the map.Originally posted by Maj West:Another great version of the game would be a modern day edition. It could cover the entire ground US arsenal from Grenada to Operation Iraqi Freedom. Hypothetical scenarios such as North Korea, Taiwan, conflict in Europe, Syria, etc.. could also be added. As a recent veteran with the 2nd Battalion, 23rd Marines of the 1st Marine Division in Iraq, I observed that there are many aspects of modern warfare that have not changed since WWII. Especially the "fog of war." A modern day simulation would be a great game and provide an added dimension.
Then please tell me who would agree on a (realistic) PBEM scenario including US combat troops after 1990? I would agree, but only if a single killed GI would ensure victory, no matter the flag cost or own losses.
Sorry to bring this up, but this is the way the real world is. Avoid the front, go for the rear areas.
For fictitional scenarios, there would be too many grogs discussing it without any available data.
Nice idea, but I guess BFC won't do it.
Gruß
Joachim
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The AI does go thru wire if the wire blocks an entire patch of cover. Of course you need to block almost any nearby patch, too.Originally posted by IntelWeenie:Don't place mines directly behind wire. Place it to the sides. No one (not eventhe TacAI) usually tries to plow striaght through wire but will try to skirt around it. Using wire to channelize the enemy into kill zones is pretty easy, but it's harder with AP mines since they are hidden. I usually buy more wire than AP mines for this reason. When I do get AP mines, I'll place some of them immediately in front of my infantry to help break up enemy charges.
I had a night assault where some burning wood and wire across a street protected my positions in a factory. Huge enemy forces crossed the wire where it connected to the fire. Err.. they tried to. Lots of eliminated markers there in the AAR (but just out of sight druing battle - it was a very dark night. Luckily it was in hand grenade range).
The wire was 60m long, then there was a mined (later cleared) gap in the wire.
Gruß
Joachim
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Biltong’s Campaign Rules
Latest versions
41 South v2.3 updated on 5 June 2003 and
42 South v1.3 updated on 17 November 2003
As there were some minor problems with the core force in 42 South v1.2 after July '42, I started an update from July to December and later for the whole year. See changes from v1.2 to v1.3 in the release notes for v1.3.
Player Guide v2.2
A complete walk-through of the first battle, the more difficult rules explained in some detail and lots of lovely pictures [Wink]
BiltAid (41 South v2.2 compliant at the moment)
SeaHawk & Sabe have automated nearly all the ‘paperwork' and made BCR accessible to the non-fanatics [Roll Eyes]
BCR Map Packs with over 220 maps!!
All of the above - Get it here:
If this is the first time you hear about BCR [Confused]
BCR is a set of Campaign rules that enable you to play a series of battles from Barbarossa to Berlin.
BCR 41 & 42 South is the set of Rules covering the months June 41 to December 42 in the Army Group South Theatre of Operations.
Operation Barbarossa erupts on 22 June 1941 and you and your Battle Group storm through the Soviet ranks through the long months of summer in the steppe and the mud and rain of October. You take your men all the way to Rostov, Kharkov and the Crimea before the incredible cold of November halt you in your tracks. Then the Soviet counter attacks start.
You are the commanding officer of a company of German Mechanized Infantry and some armor that you take through the whole CMBB time frame. As you lead your company and armor into Russia most of the parameters of the battles are dictated by historically accurate data, e.g. on the 4th week of October 41 it suddenly turns bitterly cold and the German advance freezes to a halt.
You, your men and armor gain or lose experience throughout the Campaign. You start off with Regular troops, but after a year it becomes obvious that the quality of your replacements are getting worse... How your men grow in experience will depend on how they fare in each battle - how many men did they lose; did they get rattled; did they take out a MG pillbox or maybe even a tank?
You yourself, as the CO, learn and slowly gain or lose Favor with your own commanding officer. If you screw up, you lose favor... Favor that you could have used to avoid launching an Immediate Assault straight after your last battle without even getting reinforcements.
You also get a Task Force to support your Battle Group: Infantry, Support, Vehicles, Armor, Arty or Air, depending on factors such as who assaults or attack who, weather etc.
With designed scenarios you quite often have balanced forces, but with BCR you get the real thing: Sometimes you know who your opponent is; sometimes you are facing unknown odds. Sometimes you have an easy go of it - hammering low on ammo and decimated green Partisans, but later that night you might face a counter-attack from 3 companies of Guards Mech, before you had chance to get reinforcements... You have to think on your feet and learn to retreat when necessary... no more heroic defenses or assaults till the last man!!
Your men's survival is of the utmost importance... even to the extent that you'll rather lose a battle than lose too many men! The objectives still matter - you still want to win, but not at the cost and risk of decimating your men. Here realism rules for the first time.
As a learning tool this is unsurpassed.... You learn to think and act like a real commander... If you think you’ve got your tactics down pat, [Razz] Think again. You will get into situations that you’ve never encountered before and never will with normal scenarios and QB’s.
BCR is just for yourself - the battle is between yourself and an enemy who grows stronger every year. You will have to become a better commander for you and your men to survive till the end.
If you have any questions - post in this thread and usually I or one of the old hands will answer you within a day or 2.
Enjoy!!
(i.V.) Joachim
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BCR Single Player Campaign Rules for Masochists
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2nd thisOriginally posted by JPS:Cool!
Gruß
Joachim
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This is exactly what confuses me:Originally posted by 88mm:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> If you start a 1000 pts attack with 20% initial casualties in a QB, you can spend
(1000 / 1.5) * (1/(1-0.2) = 1875 points
on your force.
1000/1.5 = 666,67 and 1/0.8 (1-0.2) = 1.25
1.25 x 666,67 = 833 points
Where does the 1875 come from :confused: </font>
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IOW units that start the setup phase outside setup zones.Originally posted by Sergei:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scarhead:
Note that units outside or moved back to the setup zones are not supplied.
Has anyone noticed what is required for behind-the-lines units to gain their own zone (and thus getting resupply)? A certain troop density, no nearby enemies or how? </font>
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Originally posted by 88mm:
Thanks for the explenation. Sorry to tell but know i am more confused then before
Thought the 1.72 was a multiplier instead of a divider, and then you come up with a 1.6 divider or is it a multplier too. I know, i am hopeless :eek:
It is a divider. I just had the files for '42 available where it is changed from 1.72 to 1.6. In '41 it is 1.72, so you can use 1.72.
Edit: It is a divider and a multiplier - depending on which direction you calculate!
Plz. stay with 1 version, i want to use the excel-sheets. Anyway, if i understand you right the total purchase points is more favorable for the enemy then it is to me. How does it work with the other two divider/multipliers :confused:
There are 3 factors - 1.3 for probes, 1.5 for attacks and 1.72 for assaults.
The formula given in Note 10 ensures that you have the smallest available QB setting to fit your force size.
You have a core force and the support units, resulting in a given numbe rof points you want to spend. To acheive this, the formula does
kind of the reverse what CM does.
If you start a 1000 pts attack with 20% initial casualties in a QB, you can spend
(1000 * 1.5) * (1/(1-0.2) = 1875 points
on your force.
Edit: Here it is a multiplier. the bonus for the attacker
CM automatically rolls for 20% losses, so your actual force on the battlefield is worth about
1875 * 0.8 = 1500 points
This is exactly a 1.5:1 advantage for the attacker
In your battle you have 1373 points in an assualt and no casualties. As you get
(1372 / 1.72) / (1/1) = 798 points.
Edit: Here it is a divider - we want to calculate the QB size from the actual points that must be available
Note that with 20% losses you get
(1372 / 1.72) / (1/0.8)
= 798 * 0,8 = 638 points
You select an 800 points battle and are able to spend 1376 points in CM, but BCR only allows for 1373.
BCR tries to get as close to the modifiers inherent in CM as possible, but is always lower than them.
In large battles there is a "problem" with the rounding error - it gets really big. If your force size is 3001, you could select a 3000 points battle, but you could not spend all of your points. So BCR says it is a 5000 points battle. You can spend 3001 points - but in a Meeting engagement, the AI is able to spent all of the 5000 points. Tough luck for you. Whenever there are many points left in the purchase menu after buying all what BCR allowed, you know the AI got an additional bonus.
The AI is good, but it is no match for a player with a brain. When the AI gets more troops, you have to apply better tactics to beat it. That's much more fun than winning every time. If you loose to often, you might consider starting as conscript or green. Depending on player experience, the normal bonus for the AI is lower.
BCR is a campaign where you have to take care for your men. Losses are bad - usually worse than a lost battle. You have to change the way you play. No all out attack, where your last men grab the last flag after killing almost every enemy. You need to plan attacks where you maybe grab just a few flags, but preserve your men's lives. It is very rare for me to achieve a total victory. I often withdraw or stop the attack when I see it gets a slaughter. There is not much sense in pressing every attack. Just imagine what would have happened if the Germans pulled out of Stalingrad in August...
90% correct is ok. Sometimes I find that even I forgot to apply a rule. The most important rule is to have fun with those campaigns, not applying every rule. The force size is maybe the most important rule - all others are less important.Examples, plz. More examples
ps: Tried the other guys campaign, seems more logic to follow the rules so maybe i skip BCR and go along the other campaigne. Not that i don't like BCR, but it's so tough to get "the picture". you loose fun easaly after 6 hours of trying to get things going, reading the rules, re-reading the rules, trying to understand it all and then after all that work done; hope you done it 90% correct.
Good luck with Rob's campaign!
Gruß
Joachim
[ November 19, 2003, 06:41 AM: Message edited by: Joachim ]
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Interesting use of mines. I'll have to try this. I think adding an MG or two within range of the minefields to rake the pinned infantry. You may have done this already. </font>Originally posted by Jack Carr:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What also proved to be very effective was to mine the front of the first houses in the village. The attacking russians tried to find cover, and promptly ran into the mine fields, which added greatly to the confusion. It also made two of their heavy MGs static due to crew loss.
That was a pretty good way to simulate "booby traps" me thinks.
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Originally posted by 88mm:
Hi Scarhead.
Just started a new 41' campaign, the jump off scenatio went fine but i am confused about the 2de battle. It's 3 days later (no immidiate assault), the first battle was a total victory with only 2 men loss of my core. I have a assault mission, so according to the rules (excel-sheet) i recieve 653p for the core, and diced 175inf/support/200 vehicle/250 armor and 95 art for the fight = 1373 points. Since it's a assualt i use the x 1.72 modifier, right ?
That totals about 2300p so i use the 3000p .
Sofar oke?
Well, the struggle gets here; do i modify the each number seperatly, so i get 1.72 x 175 inf/sup, 1.72 x 200 vehicle etc.etc.
or do i stick with the max numbers i diced ?
IIRC the modifier should be 1.6 now. You can find out easily by selecting a 1000 pts QB, no casualties, Axis assault. Check the points you have available, divide by 1000. That is the correct modifier. The assault modifier is given as 1.6 in BCR '42. Dunno the exact modifier for CM, don't have access to it right now.
So with a 1.6 modifer you have 1373 points divided by 1.6 = 858 or a 900 points battle.
With a 900 points battle, you are able to buy at least 900*1.6 = 1440 points in CM. BCR allows for only 1373.
(A 1.72 modifer would result in 1373/1.72 = 798 pts = 800 pts battle)
Thus you can spend those points you diced. No need to multiply them.
If not, what is it then i should do with the extra points ?
Extra points are an extra bonus for the AI.
It gets really tough if you have 3001 points, have to select a 5000pts battle and the AI has a 100% bonus. In an assault, that's like 5:1 odds. question 2: how do i edit the ammo and exp of the forces, dunno where to find it.
Ammo is somewhere in the QB menu. IIRC just above the Sewer movement setting
Average experience of the whole force is there, too - albeit only hig, medium and low.
Experience of units is specified in the unit buy menu. IIRC in the middle of the top line.
Experience of individual units that are part of formations works with the scenario editor only.
You can not buy a regular company or plt and change the experience of a single squad in a QB (the generator disturbs the experience a bit for more interesting gameplay)
If you want to change the experience of some of your squads, do the following:
Instead of firing up a QB, first create a scenario:
First Thing: Maps
I suggest using a map from the map pack. Just load the map as you would load a complete scenario. You can also load any other scenario, clear the troops, change the date and use the map. Maybe adjust the setup zones and the flags. Note that snow is a seasonal effect, so a winter map can be used in the summer.
If you want a random map, start the QB deciding which units you get, note the flag points, the size of the map and the size of the setup zones. Create a random map in the scenario editor using that size, then increase defender's setup-zone to about 40% of the map and set the flags to defendable clusters.
I prefer dynamic flags, especially when on defense. The AI attacks a single flag much better than several of them. Having at least 3 of them forces you to spread you troops. Note that you as the attacker can not select which dynamic flag you want to attack in a QB or a scenario turned QB, only in a real scenario! In QBs, the computer does that for you.
Parameters
Set the date and the friendly map edges (should be those edges behind the respective setup zones)
Troops
Now buy your core troops (including attached forces). IIRC click or double click unit in the unit list in the "buy units menu" to edit them:
Set their ammo to zero. The QB ammo setting will take care of your ammo level. Set the experience as noted in your battlegroup sheet. Set leader bonus etc.
Save Scenario and end Editor
Start QB
When asked for the map, select "Custom map" (Dunno if that's the exact button designation. I've got the German version). Then load your scenario as the map. Import the troops when asked by just pressing "Yes".
When the "buy units" menu appears, your unit roster should already include your core. Now only buy the support forces.
Then continue like a standard QB.
Yes! Have to fix this! :mad:Keep up the good work, it's lookin good !
ps: Noticed this, and following you reply the "official" example is thus wrong or outdated:
A tank knocks out a pillbox (+1) causing 2 enemy casualties (+1) , but then gets knocked out itself (-1) and the crew are 'Rattled' (-1). Luckily they get Overall Exp. Gain of +1. Total Experience Gain for the crew: +1.
since there are only 2 cas, no point is given as you say the minimum=5
Total exp gain= 0 , right?
Though the minimum depends on the gun size. a PzIV or StuG will need 10 cas for the first point.
PS: If you get any attachment points, spend them!
Add the spent points to your core force points. (If you spent 22 attachment points, you will have a core of 675 points. Calculate the force size based on this number. In the example above there would be 1373+22=1395 points)
Gruß
Joachim
[ November 19, 2003, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Joachim ]
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Hmmm. Re c):
1.) Potential use as camo in woods. A log pile is less suspicious than some metal.
2.) Potential use to irritate enemy. Any pile of logs will be targetted by Soviets!
3.) Saves seasonal adequate camo paint.
4.) Concrete might work vs HEAT. Similar effects as porcelain (the material used in china and in modern MBT armor)???
Gruß
Joachim
[ November 17, 2003, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: Joachim ]
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Dunno. Really breaking LOS does (and should) work. If the gun is in a cresting position or a thick forest, pulling it back will do the trick. Of course nobody will turn it around and push as in CM but pull it back.Originally posted by stikkypixie:How does a gun in real life hide or take cover, because apparently if an ATG hides or takes cover it is out of LOS?, :confused:
When hiding a gun does not move out of LOS but it vanishes from sight. LOS is just a common abbreviation used for anything regarding sight.
Maybe hiding represents nobody running around the gun and no muzzle flashes from shooting. Given that there is some muzzle flash and smoke from the tank gun blocking sight for a moment, a TC may loose track of a concealed gun inside uniform cover (ie somewhere on the edge of a huge forest as opposed to "5m to the left of the only building in the area"). I have no explanation for grunts loosing sight of a stationary gun.
BTW: There is that gamey bug checking the generic unit marker. Click on the unit marker. While you can see the terrain in the unit info (on the control panel), the unit is alive. If it is black, the unit is dead.
Other hints the gun is destroyed are your units kill stats and another generic marker appearing very close to the gun stating "Crew" or "infantry?"
Gruß
Joachim
[ November 17, 2003, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: Joachim ]
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Combined armsOriginally posted by MaverickBret:I just recently got CMBO & CMBB so am a newbie with the game. I have problems when I run into AT guns with my armor. Obviously you would want to bring as many guns to bear as possible to at least suppress the crew till you can knock out the gun. But tanks don't seem to put a priority on AT guns that they do on other tanks. They'll be preoccupied with whatever infantry units are closer than the AT gun. (I witnessed a PzIII engaging an AT team at 200m back away from the AT team to expose it's rear to 45mm ATG fire. It of course was knocked out.) Plus when they see one they tend to back away and find cover thus making any kind of coordinated attack blunder. (The AI suprisingly does a fairly good job of this against my ATG's.)
ATG's primary purpose is to take out tanks so I realize engaging them with tanks is just asking for it. Preferably I'd use artillary but it's hard to get mortars or an FO into position considering tanks advance faster let alone the time delay. So my question is what is the best proven way of eliminating Anti-tank guns.
The best way is combined arms. Don't let the tanks outrun your infantry. It is usually much better to have the infantry lead and bring in the tanks on identified (or at least located) targets. This allows for rifle&MG fire on the ATG.
Mortars
The mortars should be with the infantry. This does work for the small 50mm mortars. If the map allows for it, a HQ as spotter for medium (81-82mm) on-board mortars a bit back. Infantry guns in good locations help, too. Especially the 150mm variant works (AI is usually too dumb too take it out with mortars). If the map has only limited LOS, it should be possible to use some transort for your medium mortars, allowing them to keep up with the infantry.
Covered Arcs and Area Fire
If you want to kill the ATG, and only the ATG, you do not target it directly, but put area fire as close to its location as possible. "Close counts with HE", so you might consider shelling a place close to the ATG from a place where you cannot see the ATG itself. Thus it can't see you. Too ensure the area fire sticks to the target, use a small covered arc in the general direction of the gun. Only big threats outside the covered arc and targets insdie the covered arc will force the tank to switch target.
If you fear enemy tanks, use a wide vehicle arc. This should do the trick in most cases.
Keyholing and placing another tank (or more) in overwatch are good ideas.
Note that often the guns hides ot takes cover, breaking LOS. The ATG can not be targetted directly, the tanks switches target, once the gun is unsuppressed it fires again. Area fire and covered arc prevent this.
What works for the AI does work for you, too:
If you want to use this feature, place a HQ with stealth bonus near the gun and hide once it receives incoming. Unhide once a good target appears.
Big shells
PzIII's are not a good idea vs ATGs (ok, except the PzIIIn). You want some big gun vs soft targets. 75mm or more. That's why I suggested infatry guns.
20m autocannons can work, too, as they fire many shells.
Snipers
They suppress ATGs, sometimes they even manage to rout the crew (I had one who killed 2 crewmen and the gun but fired only one shot in the whole game)
Gruß
Joachim
[ November 17, 2003, 04:33 AM: Message edited by: Scarhead ]
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1.) Just as a good defender does not mass around the flags and hilltops, a good attacker will not put most of his his forces on the start line.Originally posted by Walpurgis Night:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scarhead:
1.) Not a good defender. Hills are for a lone HMG or AT gun position. And flags are to be avoided like the plague.2.) Of course he doesn't HAVE to, but use some common sense here. If you know the attacker's "starting line", with just a wee bit of common sense you can deduce where his covered startup lanes are. </font>
2.) Using common sense, the attacker knows that the defender will know the best places - so he has to figure this in and use some odd places. (If there are no odd places, the scen or QB map is crap. Possible solutions see above. I suggest using neither flat nor open maps.)
3.) The defender knows the likely assembly areas, the attacker knows the good defensive terrain. An attack over open ground vs abundant cover for the defender at usual QB odds favors the defender. If the attacker agrees to the map - tough luck.
4.) I currently play exactly such a battle - but I start at least 800m from the defender (Guess my units use the whole 1000*2000m setup area) and I have enough time (120 turns, see scenario forum, Like big battles).
5.) Other solutions: Try to agree on rules what is gamey. I doubt the attacker would have choosen this approach had he knewn that pre-planned bombardements are not gamey. But then again, the rules should include extreme edge hugging as gamey, too. (But where does extreme start?).
6.) Possible solution: One side states the rules and the battle parameters, the other chooses which side he wants after the parameters are given. Thus player 1 wants to ensure a fair battle, as he will get the weaker side.
Gruß
Joachim
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Ooohh... It will be very interesting whose name will be immortal thru the next challenge thread.Originally posted by Other Means:ok, if you back away very slowly the two of you *may* get away with it.
remember - this is how PENG started.
Gruß
Joachim
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And the sixth horseman will carry a bowl and he will pour it upon your troops and it contains boredom.Originally posted by Andreas:While you ramble on, I have sent my men to get a manicure. That way they look more dashing at the victory parade on the Red Square.
The 3,7cm PAK is a superb infantry gun. Don't mock it.
I am not unsporting. I'll give your men a 20 turn leave to finish their manicure. But remember that they will need their nails when panic strikes them and they try to dig deeper while my arty rains on their positions and the huge 37000000 nanometer shells blast their trenches.
Gruß
Joachim
) to the Quick Battle system or to the battle results screen. 
MG 42 vs .50 cal
in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps
Posted
Something like that is achieved for HMGs with max ammo but one crew member wounded.
The 157 ammo count for the 5 man HMG34 team drops to something like 85 once moving. Interestingly, the 6th member can carry more than 70 ammo points.
(Which is a likely bug. BFC fix it or sumfink!
Suggestion:
Ammo level depends on when a man is hit and on the speed.
a) If 6 men can carry the whole ammo, I suggest the last 2 men to be able to carry the MG, tripod and some ammo. Say 20. Running impossible or the team drops 10 of the ammo load.
c) Keeping excess ammo: If a causalty occurs, the team loses the ammo only if it moves farther than 20m from that casualty.
If the team starts with more ammo than it can carry, it will loose the excess ammo after they moved more than 20m from their original positions.
This represents staying in the same house or trench, with one member shuttling the ammo around.
)
Gruß
Joachim