Joachim
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Posts posted by Joachim
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I just made two nearly identical training scenarios. Both feature a single AFV plt vs 2 companies of tanks that most would class as superior.
and
They are rather simple and only to teach some of the lessons mentioned in this thread:
- Many on few (local odds)
- surprise
- keyholing
- blinding the enemy before moving in with tanks
- offering baits to the enemy (a tank already engaging a target seems more focussed on that target and sometimes ignores newly appearing threats)
- gather intel by inf so you know the targets.
They exploit some TacAI weaknesses - but who cares.
The tank battle happens so your tanks are in rather barren country, with just a few hills. Tanks will be spotted quickly in this terrain, especially when atop hills.
Hints:
The IG is well protected in its trench. It can occupy the T34s - and close their hatches with close hits. Show it to the enemy just before your tanks strike. Then hide it with a blue covered arc.
The AI will advance along the road (towards the nearest flag). Use it to your advantage. If you target the rear of the column, less tanks will come to help during a turn. When they come, they are often in reverse and don't stop. If you target the lead tank, others will hunt forward to help him out.
Look at the terrain - there are small ondulations in the crests that allow for keyholing.
The LMGs and sniper can close hatches before you strike and act as lookouts.
Remember that AFS are taller than inf. When inf has LOS, an AFV is already hull up. o if the inf has LOS, you don't want to move a tank on the exact point where the inf is. A good location might be further back.
Smoke might blind the tanks, a barrage might close some hatches
Conserve ammo.
The scenarios are rather short as you only move a few units each turn. But each of these units count!
If you get disastrous results in one turn, reload. Either re-run the turn with the same commands a few times to see if it was bad luck - or you really screwed.
If it was bad luck, think about what you did, why it failed and try something different. This is a training scen. Reloading ain't cheating here.
Results with the Marder varian:
Trial 1:
One Marder got hit and exploded, the blast got the next Marder abandoned and another one immo'd. Keep a little distance between your tanks. Yet bunching up often helps getting local odds.
Trial 2:
20:0. One T34 was killed by a HE round.
Comments welcome
Gruß
Joachim
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As Jason says...
Practise playing eggshells with hammers vs AI.
Practise playing eggshells with popguns vs AI.
I'd suggest using eggshells with low command delay in the beginning (ie Germans in early war vs T34s or Shermans vs Tigers/Panthers). Timing is easier. Green Soviets in '42 vs Tigers is for the veteran player.
You can even create scens where the enemy is set up in a killsack to get the feeling of how you have to set up a killsack.
Tips:
Use your inf to scout. Intel pays. I like to have an LMG team on one of my tanks if they operate too far from the inf. The LMG team scouts for good LOS positions. Simulates the TC leaving the tank.
Maneuver with the AFVs.
Patience!
Timing. Park your tanks turret down. When you want to strike, move them into LOS with fast and hunt plus pauses (or additional waypoints for fine tuning comman ddelays) so they all arrive at the same time.
Odds win. Fight isolated enemy units with quantity if you don't have quality. Try to avoid quantity if you have quality.
You don't need to concentrate your tanks in one place. Concentrate your fire!
Switching to a nearby target keeps the bonus for range finding in the to-hit-percentage. So space out your tanks.
Coordinate all your weapons. Inf shuts hatches or close assaults while ATGs or tanks fire from a distance.
Attack from different sides simultaneously. Or pop up a bait on one side, wait till the enemy turns, close the enemies hatches then show your killers on the other side. Works great vs Stug or slow turrets.
Coordination was the advantage of the Germans in early war. It works in CM, too.
You'll learn quite a lot playing with eggshells. Playing Tigers vs T34s is more fun with the Tigers, but you'll learn more playing the T34s.
Gruß
Joachim
[ February 06, 2006, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Joachim ]
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Ah, those QB playersOriginally posted by JasonC:If you don't select your force, having preferences or not having preferences for specific unit types is completely immaterial. The issue only arises in the first place for players choosing their force composition. If you just take what a scenario designer gives you, then naturally you just use whatever you get, preferences be darned.
Now go write a post in two parts:
a) buying HTs for QBs
HTs provided in scens and and I bet most here will agree that HTs are usually a waste of points if you don't need to buy some vehicles anyway (yes, you're absolutely right on that).
Part
will be controversial. It depends on the type of player, the type of scen he plays and the type of scens he already played. There is no absolute truth about the use of HTs.Gruß
Joachim
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Jason,Originally posted by JasonC:As for the imaginary "advantage HT" nonsense, a platoon in HTs is crossing 60m of open ground before the next cover. The Russians have LOS to the area from one ZIS-3.
Dead armor doesn't rally. Infantry rallies. And HTs are not free - a single platoon with them has to fight as well as a company without, just to break even.
it was a comparison between passengers on tanks, trucks or armored carriers. Not between inf on foot or on HTs. The HTs have advantages vs trucks or tanks as carriers. Dear armor, dead trucks, dead HTs - none rally. No advantage.
The best buy regarding HTs is using the mot company of the PzDiv (before the 251/9 is available). HTs at company discount rates. If you need them or must spend on vehicles anyway.
Gruß
Joachim
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I would not bet on that. I had the AI clear an AT minefield with a satchel charge. There was an immo'd T34 in it. Many grunts around. I saved the turn after I heard the bang and the minefield vanished, later I surrendered that turn after reloading: No combat till then yet lots of casualties and a destroyed (not abandoned!) T34. I doubt it was a stray arty shell as the minefield was gone afterwards.Originally posted by JasonC:Incidentally, engineers will not throw demos to clear a minefield if somebody is already in it, because they won't throw demos that close to friendlies, period. Anybody in the field, out of it, always comes first.
Gruß
Joachim
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Shamelessly quoting myself:
From this thread:Originally posted by Joachim:Search for PzIV or Pz-IV (IIRC in the CMBB forum). The tests were done for that vehicle. There are 2-3 threads. Guess there is the info and a link to the others in this one:
http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=009490;p=3
The trick was that the chance to hit increases with hull up but the chance of a penetration of the weak 50mm turret front decreases.
Gruß
Joachim
http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=30;t=001294#000010
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In CM the value of transport increases with map size and amount of heavy wpns - especially with guns.Originally posted by Cuirassier:Excellent points Joachim.
I agree halftracks are superior to trucks and maybe tanks in for moving infantry.
But is CM, infantry usually move around dismounted for the entire game, and a tank's covering firepower has far more use than the paper thin armor of an HT. Mounted troops have little use, so, on a tactical level, HTs aren't that important, IMHO.
One of my last PBEMs (Tebourba, NA, late '42, ME, me as Axis player) saw reinforcements on trucks or HTs. They had to move about 1km to the action. Those that walked came late. Some went ahead on tanks - but that cost the tanks 1 turn more to reach the position. On one rout I could use my HTs from the initial force and the first reinforcement as busses. The trucks lacked cross country ability but helped on a road in the first part of the journey.
My HTs were essential in the race for good positions. My weaker tanks meant I could not defend up but on reverse slopes. The availabilty of zooks meant I'd need inf ahead of my tanks. I achieved this with HTs - too few tanks in the initial force.
But my HTs moved behind cover. They did not take part in the shooting. IIRC I lost a mortar carrier, but not a single APC (a Kübel bogged and was abandoned). SdKfz 7 would have achieved the same as the 251s. Yet that 10mm of steel made me use them more aggressively in the first phase when I feared inf.
The enemy's plan was to win the armor war and race into the village with tanks first followed by mounted inf - at least he had his forces assembled like this in the later stages of the battle. If he had had won the armor battle, he would have succeeded with this plan. A plt of mech inf actually tried to reach the village behind a few Lees. I had MGs covering their route. Dismounted inf would have pinned and arrived piecemeal - no problem for my inf in the village. My remaining medium tanks were busy fighting his tanks. His HTs were stopped by my PzIIs and ACs. Glad I had parked those in good positions.
Both sides used HTs. For me they were decisive, to my opponent they offered his last chance to decide the battle.
So there are CM battles where HTs are valuable. But these are exceptions.
You're right that tanks offer more bang for the buck.
Gruß
Joachim
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On tanks as transport:Originally posted by Cuirassier:Um, the armor on HT's is practically useless. Lets see, what can penetrate and kill them.
Maxim at close range
DSHK MG
M2 MG
ATR
Any anti tank gun or recoiless rifle
Infantry guns
Mortars
Demo charges
grenades
molotovs
RPG-43's
T-34
Hmmm. Long list. So what advantage to they have. None really when compared to trucks, other than better mobility and shrapnel, small arms fire (as you mentioned)
Tanks work the best for moving infantry. Their firepower substitutes for the thin armor of HT's. As JasonC mentioned, HT's have only an operational use. Tactically, they can't to anything better than a vanilla Panzer III or IV.
APCs free tanks from moving them around. You have more tanks for combat duties. This allows you to hit harder with a given amount of tanks. APCs are cheaper to produce and they use less fuel. So combining HTs and tanks reduces cost in production and upkeep (->steel and oil).
On 10 mm of armor around the passengers:
The length of the list doesn't matter. Let's look at the effect of some weapons vs inf in APC, on trucks and on armor.
Squad infantry weapons
Distance below 30m:
SMGs or pistols don't work vs inf in HTs.
Anything else kills. Grenades etc need to hit the open top. So some of them might not kill inf in HTs. If one finds it's way it is much more leathel
Slight advantage HTs.
Distance 30m to 200m
Grenades etc are out of range.
MGs kill all
Small arms kill unarmored inf.
Advantage HT.
Distance 200m to 500m
Heavy MGs still kill
Small arms and LMGs kill unarmored inf, but not in HTs
ATRs are as effective vs HTs as vs trucks - and their passengers.
Advantage HT.
Distance 500m
Most heavy MGs stop being effective.
ATRs still can kill trucks, but have to hit HTs at flat angle.
Advantage HT.
Inf Guns/mortars:
"Close counts with HE"... but it must be closer to kill a HT than to kill a squad in the open or on top of a truck or tank.
Advantage HT.
ATGs:
Bad news for all. The tanks will hurry to get out of LOS. Same holds for APCs - but I'd prefer sitting on a bench in an APC to sitting atop a tank when they are moving full speed. I doubt a T34 can move at 30mph and carry a full squad of tank riders.
Slight advantage HT.
Please don't discuss effective ranges of weapons. The ranges above were just crude estimates. Replace them with effective ranges and my point will still be valid.
Gruß
Joachim
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What is surprising about a HT? We all know what it looks like.Originally posted by JasonC:What in who's name is stealthy about a halftrack? lol.
It is the proper tactics for HTs that use stealth, speed and surprise.
Stealth works best - if the opponent doesn't know they are there, he won't try to kill them. Guess that's why so few were destroyed at Kursk.
Gruß
Joachim
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What is surprising about a HT? We all know what it looks like.Originally posted by JasonC:What in who's name is stealthy about a halftrack? lol.
It is the proper tactics for HTs that use stealth, speed and surprise.
Gruß
Joachim
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Apart from Jason's tips:
Try to get at enemy tanks from 2 sides. Turning won't help the enemy then.
Keyholing works, too. You want many on one. Not many on more.
A dirty trick in CM is to use a well armored tank in front of hard hitting yet cheaper tanks. If the T34 can't penetrate your PzIII with 70mm front at 600m, it will still aim at the PzIII if it appears first and is closer to the T34 than a cheaper tank (or Marder) that appears later. The PzIII takes the punishment while the Marder or PzIV does the killing.
Shoot and scoot is something I don't like. Or I'm too dumb to put the waypoint in the exact spot. I get off one shot, the enemy gets many on me. So I prefer "hunt". Arriving in LOS late in a turn and quickly retreating next turn gives a better shoot& scoot. Plus I am able to get off several shots if I want to. Consecutive shots on the same or close targets get a bonus for finding the range.
Gruß
Joachim
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HTs come out late when my tanks are low on ammo, the enemy AT assets are gone. Before that I loose them even vs the AI.
They work great on big maps with covered communication lines. Shifting guns and heavy wpns on routes hidden from fire.
Speed, surprise and stealth are their assets.
Gruß
Joachim
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No. When the progress report is ready they'll either report that
- they are behind schedule
- that progress is as expected
- progress is made
As it is an IT project I expect them to keep their "first quarter" promise. But I'm not so sure about the year.
Gruß
Joachim
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If the river ain't running parallel to the friendly map edges you don't need to cross anyway in an op.
Gruß
Joachim
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An up defense in late 1944 would mean that you get melted away without causing casualties.
Let's examine real world tactics when fighting from there. The squad is perfectly placed to cover most approaches. Some up, some to the rear.
Enemy comes with one point man crossing the street. He enters the building and finds the enemy - usually that in the rear as up defenders are not near likely entrances. Recce by death. How many are in there? Enough to bring in the tanks and/or waste ammo?
Enemy comes with many across the street. Defenders hear it. Grenades fly, some short bursts of automatic fire on those exposed. Many casualties. Defedners withdraw or cease fire. Head game with enemy - does he follow (ito a trap?) or bring in tanks long after the inf is gone?
Leading with tanks leads to lots of destroyed tanks.
Drill the soldiers their lives depend on strictly following the "withdraw" or "cease fire" command. If one idiot continues firing after cease fire, withdraw. Pretend to run when you stay, retreat in silence. If an idiot pins when retrating - tough luck. But if he believes propagande, he will run.
Now imagine the situation in CM:
You have teams or squads that are in one point. LOS to the whole team decides whether you can fire or not. Not scouts with automatic weapons up in the 2nd floor and the rest a bit to the rear of the ground floor. Unable to run immediately after the first volley as in the real world. In CM it takes about one minute where you can receive some incoming and pin... the whole team, not just one single man who will know that if he stays behind he'll die and thus run, too.
The whole unit marker shifts when retreating, giving intel to the attacker. An attacker has to fear a second unit in the building, but he knows that the first defender retreated. How many scens are there where the defender can afford 2 units per building? How many men fight from a house in the real world? Divisions vanished in Stalingrad on maps that feature a btn in CM.
Urban combat ain't the focus of CMx1. It is entertaining to try, but far from actual tactics as CM ain't detailed enough for it.
Gruß
Joachim
PS: Try defending with SMG-heavy units placed so they see half into the street. Have one plt per 20m, in depth. Set ammo to max.
PPS: Using only LMG, HQs, tank hunters and snipers might do, too.
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There where some ideas on taking overwatch out of the battle or to suppress them to delay the battle, yet the main focus of the thread is on actually destroying them. That's what made it kind of "new".
Gruß
Joachim
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Hint:
Bring them in as 3 single platoons in 3 separate reinforcement slots plus one for the company stuff. Costs more points (who cares in scens anyway), the companies aren't numbered - but each plt rides its own vehicles and you don't have two plt HQs in one HT.
Gruß
Joachim
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If you get caught in an ambush in CMC, you still deployed foolishly. Why didn't you deploy in CMC before driving into the enemy?
Gruß
Joachim
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Ok... some misunderstanding on my side. I thought you'd suggest to run even across open space when there is a minimal chance to reach cover.
Guess we share the same point of view on this then.
Gruß
Joachim
PS: the brits in my example above only died when my SdKfz 234 (?) finally run out of HE and used canister. Two turns of heavy incoming did not finish them. Staying put was the correct choice for them. They cost me a turn and 2 men.
[ January 08, 2006, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Joachim ]
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First thing in scens for me is to load it into the editor ans look what I have. Including my reinforcements. Then I sort my units as they were on parade. View "5", looking across the parade ground towards my edge, view not fixed on unit. Then the clickfest starts: Hit "+" with left hand, place unit on parade ground with mouse (right hand). May take a few minutes. Then I take notes on what I've got, including HQ bonusses and experience. Then I look at the map, guestimate the enemy and decide on the strategy. Then I place my units.
Units in parade formation on setup (maybe as option) would be appreciated, though I do it really quick now - lots of training.
Getting an OOB list (like in the editor) would help as well.
Gruß
Joachim
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Depends on the units. IMHO a 2x2 map is too small for Tigers or Panthers - these could engage on longer ranges. On 2x2 those have only little room to maneuver and fire long range shots from different positions - i. e. they can't use their strength (I use cats as if they were Marders).
2x2 km is enough for lots of PzIII/IV vs any russian tank. The size is good for lots of inf, too.
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You can hand the files and passwords to a neutral player. He agrees to a ceasefire for both sides which will immediately end the game. Then he sets up again.
Gruß
Joachim
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If possible place the TRPs where you expect the tanks to pass - bridges, causeways. Tanks can not set up on ice, so I guess they can't move on it, too.
TRPs boost hit percentage for guns that haven't moved during the battle. Very important for the slow moving HC rounds.
@Sergei:
Great. So we resort to plan
- delay T34s. -
Jason, your last paragraph is interesting... I got another idea from it. IIRC the op in question is rather long - the tanks will come sooner or later.
If you button the tanks, they will arrive late. But as they are faster than inf, they will arrive with them. So depending on the situation it might be better not to button the tanks till they are in effective range. Or not to button certain tanks.
a) Button all KVs to delay those. Delay the inf. Let the T34s arrive quickly. Kill them with your ATGs.
Delay the T34s by buttoning them, hide the ATGs, finish KVs with THs, open up with ATGs.c) Delay all tanks by buttoning them up. Deal with the inf first.
a and b might work, c probably not - except if you have listening posts (snipers, ATRs) that button the tanks ahead of your MLR and away from the enemy infantry's line of advance.
Seems I have to try that op.
Gruß
Joachim
Edited to add that buttoning the HQ will delay the whole plt. Buttoning only tanks of a certain type (given correct id's) should delay only those you intend to delay.
[ January 07, 2006, 07:20 AM: Message edited by: Joachim ]
HTs provided in scens and
Getting really sick of those tanks...
in Combat Mission - Tips and Tricks
Posted
The PzIIIs with 70mm front have good armor and can kill the T34s at the given ranges with their 50L60 gun. Especially if you coordinate both flanks to achieve a crossfire on a small portion of the enemy so one side always gets flank shots. That's why I spread the plt. It is probably the easier scenario of the two. Its existence is partly due to Jason's comment above "I recommend taking a type that can reliably penetrate the enemy type faced, but then not taking all that many of them. This separates frustration issues due to poor penetration or poor behind armor effect even when you drive well, from poor armor tactics."
If you are able to concentrate your fire from both flanks on one area while still being keyholed, you should have learnt something very important (and did something I still try to master
). On tactics and on reading the terrain. You can read about tactics, but getting the right feeling for the terrain is experience.
The Marder scen is much tougher, but is is not about winning. It is training. If you can do it with Marders, you can do it with almost anything. I use Tigers as if they were Marders.
IMHO Shoot&scoot is crap. Even hunting tanks often don't find the perfect place, especially when buttoned. I seldom manage to find the perfect spot for the command. You risk that the enemy gets off the first round and gets off another one while you reverse. If you face odds, having two tanks firing at you means receiving 4 while you shoot 1. The 2nd shot of the enemy gets a bonus for rangefinding (the 3rd gets another one, then it stays at this level). So if you and the enemy have the same hit percentage for the first shot, the probability that a single enemy tank hits you is about 2.5 higher than your chance to hit him.
My trick is to guestimate a good position, then hunt and plan that all of my shooters appear roughly the same time. Of course all with the guns pointing towards the enemy. Then I duel for a few shots. While the Marders are eggshells and hits will stun or kill them, they have hammers that can do the same to the T34s - from almost any angle. With this approach I calculate much better chances than with shoot&scoot. Empirical evidence favors this approach, too. Vs AI and vs human players.
Odds, surprise and blinding the T34s before are key. The MG in the church spent most of its ammo on closing hatches. Same with the lIG. The Marders need any help they can get. They are combined arms weapons. Combined arms is not about the tanks winning the armor war and then helping the inf to finish off the enemy's inf.
Maybe the Marder scen is more for the regular player trying to improve his skills. Even a vet won't win it every time. It was pretty good training for me, too.
Gruß
Joachim