K_Tiger
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Posts posted by K_Tiger
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Im ca. 80-100 km away from Mannheim and the date is also ok for me. Do we meet us in Mannheim then drive together to sinsheim??
Send me an email if you want me to join mainhunter@t-online.de
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If some US or other ally`s hade such scores Tank/Air ect...we would have nothing to discuss here..i think.
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PawB:
If you try to make someone thinking, Manfred von Richthofen was overconfident, so must i deny. This goes more to his brother Lothar. He was more the guy we would today say a hero, allways trying to made so many kills he could get. Manfred on the other side didnt try to made more shootdowns as 1-2 per day or per flight.
Also its a fakt, Manfred died true a flakbullet, not thrue a other Pilot.
To the Wittman Myth and his dead i have my own opinion. I saw a picture and read somthing about the mysterie death of our beloved "Tankheroe"...
I saw some years ago nearly the same picture like someone here hade posted (His tiger from the back), but with a bigger fiew of the country around. Also they statet, there was only this single destroyed tank around.
So what could this say us?? 4 Tigers were ambushed by some Fly`s...no problem, they could kill any tanks without a problem. First question: Why only one destroyed Tiger?? Wittman wasn`t alone aditional 3 Tigers were with him. If the story with the Fly kill`s r right, why there werent more destroyed Tigers?? Other opinion, Tigers were often or mostly manned by elite crews...may a returning fire hade killed a sherman??
But i think, if the fly`s opened fire from an ambush, all tigers would be trash...the reaction time and the slow WWII tanks r not able to get fast enought out of the fireline...
The other quote here cursed around about the turret direction...sorry, but its the wired`st story i read...to spot shermans in a wood 800 yards away..possible in the first seconds without glasses...until Wittman could give any orders, he would be death....
Also i read (or saw it in the Historychannel)...the same like P51d mentioned, the examiener from the Wreck say`d clearly, no ap penetration, but a big hole on top of the engine deck.
For me, its not from interrest to put Wittman untouched ...Its war.. and nobody really care what happend to this or those guys...if the result is death...its still a drama...
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As i know, there is only muzzle velocity, weather effects, troop quality and the level of crew moral or something involved, may a bit of luck factor is also there but this isnt the question.
No spezial tank perfomance!!
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I hope i can help a bit...I prefer the more militaristic names.
1030=Rekrut
1031=Unerfahren??
1034= we have nothing between vet. and elite. May "Kampferprobt" but i feel its under Vet. My opinion is.. change Vet. to "Kampferprobt" or "Kampferfahren" and put Vet. into Crack.
1041=einsatzbereit is right
1050= whats about "Getarnt" ?? = camoflaged
1062= bewegungslos?? fahruntüchtig you cant say to a heavy MG.
1076= gebrochen
1080= hell.. dont take "besteigen" you do it if you climb a horse, or we say when a male animal do it with his counterpart..
)1087= Feindgeräusch???
1089= nachladen
"Luke dicht" is more for naval units like submarines i think.
Hope it helped a bit.
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Exactly what i have in mind for all wargames i played till now. Its also on cm and long ranges, i think, its typical to try to hit a target with the first round, so im carefully in acqusition my ennemy. So the delay time would be longer if im more far away. Also our beloved "Optics" and now the T-34 2 man turret thread tell us we need some more detailed Tanks.I think what wargames typically get wrong is the initial acquisition time required. Personally I believe a tank without TC override capability should be at a disadvantage in acquisition time. Tanks in which gunners and loaders were not equipped with honest to goodness viewing periscopes should be at a disadvantage in acquisition time. Tanks that are not equipped with radios should be at a disadvantage in acquisition time (unit cohesion….buddy system…watching each others back…blah blah blah...can't be effectively communicated within the platoon). Unfortunately without some sort of variably spotting routine built into the game, the real disadvantage in not being able to communicate with your “track-mates” will not really become apparent to mouse wielding generals. -
Now it looks like a cat....
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I buyed a second copy last week for my little Brother (he is 14)...what do you belive my parents would tell me, or do with me, if they would see a game with swastikas on it?? :mad:
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Dumm Sau...
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Yes...but in a other fashion as you think...a US regular crew hase the same abillitys like the german counterpart we didnt have really a "human" faktor until we have things implemented like "Fritz miss with his first shot due to a one minute dream he hade about his Girl Heidi hwo telled him not to let him come home bevore he got not his 21 Kill"are you meaning "let's discount human factors when discussing gunnery accuracy?" If so, the arguments are void because CM DOES account for human factors in gunnery. Or are you meaning "CM should discount human factors and resolve gunnery duels merely on the basis of each gun?" That's also void, because the human component is what determines winners and losers.
. So we stay at the Tank abillity...and the accuracy thing. BTS spend a gyro-stabilization for the most US tanks where we all know, it wassnt liked by the crews and mostly not used.
I will see differences between a Tiger and a Panther..or other Tanks not only by Muzzlevelocity...Target tracking, optics, the use of m-brakes ect...Then you can come with the human option...
Did i say i hate the moddeling of the KTiger in CM? The german tank with the smallest turning radius from all gerry tanks, then the slow Turret rotating...3000rpm 14 sec. for 360 degree (ok, this wasnt practicable due to engine overheating, but with 2500rpm alot faster then we see it in cm).
The JTiger testing was only a example i made, 5000 points and alot of tanks flat field some german heavys and the allied got so many tanks i could buy for my money. Range was aprox 1200-1500 meters. I started this 3 times, and the JTiger was the tank could only claim one hit out of may 60 rounds. I dont count the slow reload from the JT, but it isnt a reason to miss so many times...
So to bring this discussion to an end, i think, its not enought to put, lets say a 17Pounder into any Turret and hope to get the same result like a Gun hwo were made for one special tank. Same like i give a IG18 Inf. gun the magnitude from a JTiger or Panther optics.
I hope my standingpoint is now a bit clearer.
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I know...but why its possible in real to hit such a smal traget (with 3,7cm guns) and ingame, you see so many misses on shorter ranges?K_Tiger - aiming for the turret ring was practiced in training a lot, according to info from the father of a friend of mine who was with an AT unit in a Panzerdivision (France and Italy), crewing a 3,7cm PAK35. He says that they could hit turret rings of moving tanks regularly in exercises. A turret ring hit does not need to penetrate to disable the tank - it won't kill it, but it usually induces the crew to retire and get it fixed. BTW - my comment about pressure on the crew was not aimed at you specifically, but at the discussion in general. Where did your grandfather serve? Mine was in AG North, at Leningrad. I have some pictures at the site linked in my sig (Beobachtungsabteilung).Im not sure but i belive he served in XX Korps 389 Inf. Div. or Regiment...later he was transvered to the west...but i dont know the unit.
I was thinking, the gun calibration wasnt simulated in the game like breakdowns from the heavy`s. "Isnt in the range of CM" one of my favorite spell`s i read here...
)So wie must come to the conclusion, all Tanks r in best condition we meet on the field/CM...
John:
I read it elswhere on the net, but after re-installing and forgeting to save my favorites, i must search again for those statistiks. Im sure, the long range first shoot hitprobality (on praktice) for 88`long 75mm was alot better then the 17pounder but like i said...i must find it first.
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Doug..
Im the last men who try to bring it down to "Every gun must hit at his or those ranges"
Let us stay by the weapons and let out the "humanity" things. You will agree with me, all Tanks hade is own pros and cons. I will see in future more and better detailed Tanks.
What brings me a super-ultra fast sherman tank-turret and 20 shoots per minute, if i must wait (without a muzzlebrake) until the smoke clears a bit to get again on the target (only an example).
Again to the hit probality...i read alot from german acounts (they need it) in the early war they hade only a chance to damage T-34 and KV`s wen they aim for the turret rings. Do you know how small such a turret ring was?? May they missed alot, but they would stop this practice, if they were no chance to do so.
So its for me inaceptable to see my puma miss 4-6 shoots from 100-200 meters behind a greyhound...
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Hmm.. please read carfully... i didnt made to belive the XXX-Gun was so wonderfull or the Panther is such a nice and wonderfull weapon so it couldn be killed or somethink stupid.K_Tiger, since you are wondering. I posted this to illustrate that there is no such thing as a 'the gun should hit 4 times out of 5 at 150m, because it has a flat trajectory and the target is the size of a barn and my little indicator tells me that the probability to hit is 80%'.Why not?? 150 meters is nothing...even without optics you have not to worry to hit the target. I will not say with every first shoot, but after the first hit or miss, the following bullets will be on the traget, and out of 100 shoots then you will come over 4/5 percentages.
There are a lot of things outside the pure mechanics of the weapon that influence whether a crew hits with the weapon it operates, and a lot of these are modelled in CMBO, and even more maybe modelled in CMBB.
So please telle me wich... let the crew moral and the crew experiance outside. Ill spoke about stationary targets mostly plain los, no wounded crewmembers, with normal moral.
Just looking at the '80% to hit chance' tells you diddly squat, if you excuse my voyage into the vernacular. All this going on about how wonderful a gun the 88LXX was and that it should never miss or somefink, or can take out a fly's eyeball at 3,000 yards at the first shot misses the point. I.e. that no matter what piece of equipment you have, it is used by humans in a highly adrenaline charged situation, and that this has a rather large effect on the way results are arrived at. IRL™ and to some extent in-game too.
I only get upset, if my tiger...or even a vanilla sherman couldn kill something 200 meters away with its 5-6 shoot. Or hit with first and the rest goes into the sky. This r things hwo happened also in real..but from 1 times out of 1000 or more.
Also allways the diskussion about the moral in the field (like you mentioned "Adrenalin". I asked my Grandpa some times ago about stuff he faced in battles, there was a story he must rescued together with a other guy a woundet soldier under MG fire. Couldn translate it properly but i try it "We pressed our arse-halfes together" and run with the wounded soldier"
I asked him about fear, and got the answer "No time to have fear" then "I saw so many deads and woundeds, so i came to the conclusion, my life on the Battlefield isnt worth anything" or " I came also to the conclusion, i will die soon or later, so i will do my job until the worst case happend" (free translated..
))I think also, a high adrenalin production could be also a benefit, like in sports or like in war and dangerous situations.
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I spoke allways about ranges from 200-500 meters. Doesnt mean the far sniper ranges. I mad also my own tests like i mentioned before especialy with JTigers (over 1000-1200 meters same useless or worse like other gun plattforms).
The only thing i would make to thinking about, is the reason (and i find it not fair) to bring all Tanks down/or up only to its muzzlevelocity. There is a lot to do for BTS.
About Toms tests: It wasnt the topic from moving targets,or?
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Dont know what you r try to tell... If a modern sniper used a non/or wrong-calibrated high-end sniper riffel with laser-target-systems he will miss every shoot...so i have better chances with a barrock musket to do it...The reason? Sloppy gun zeroing, ineffective calibration of gunsights (which were a lot more advanced than systems in use by WW2 tanks) amd non-consideration of factors like barrel bend, windage, etc.This isnt a discussion for reallife happenings, its about the game mechanics. Also, no one tryed to made someone to belive, the US tanks must be worser or the germs better. Its a fact, with good weather on short ranges (we except optimum zeroing-guns) the hitprobability is around 80-95%. If BTS tells me, they implemented worst gun-zeroing, i will shut up, but in real the crews will target true the barrel and with a high-velocity gun it isnt a big problem on short ranges to do so.
On the net or other resurces, you will find statistics in gun accuracy in testing and battle conditions. The better guns like the 75mmL/70 and the 88`s have mostly up to 100% hit chances up to 1000m (17Pounder is also a nice piece) in a battle it drops down to not worser than 80%. Sme german tankers uses a lot of ammo to score a hit, on the other hand there were alot other guys hwo claimed nearly hitprobability like on the testing ground the thrue is rigth in the middle.
I think, BTS tryed to hold the motivation up in "not losing every tank after the first round" Sure, this still did happend.
Its like in Newsletters, the highlights r on site No.1. You didnt know why the gun misses, was it a bad adjustet gun/sight, or only a blind gunner who forget to wear his glasses, nobody knows, but we all know, those circumstances arent programmed, so what you hade in mind to post it?My favourite RL example of 88L71 accuracy is still the case of an 88 in Russia, firing at a KV-1 bearing down on it at 50 yards or so, and missing. I wonder if this was poor modelling of the gun on the part of reality. I mean really, did these gunners know that they could not miss?My second favourite one is the anecdote of an 88L71 firing at 7,000 yards in the Caucasus, achieving a first shot brew-up on a T-34 located in the valley below.
I think these two are probably at the outer ends of the bell-curve for what the gun could do. Anything in between is an acceptable result to me.
I hope i made no one upset...but for me, i think here r to many guys hwo praised the game at all costs and if somthing isnt clear, it comes to "Luck" or "this happend also in real". I will not bring any suggestions (BO/BB is done), could only hope for CM2, something will change with the Hitting percentage and the calculation of it.
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Dont reduce it down to luck...i played against the ai...sneaked from behind with a puma into the rear of a greyhound 4-6 shoots missed in the range about 300-400 meters or shorter... nothing, the greyhound turned, one shoot one hit.
CM is still far away to be realistic..it looks like and some elements r really good implemented, but it isnt realistic.
I read here to often, if no other possibilitys r in range, it comes to the "luck" faktor...i hate it!
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Jarmo:
Did you think they shoot at those ranges with rapid fire?? I do not...first they hade mostly not the maximum ammo, so they need to hit with what they have...i think they hit what they targeted and not to belive in luck or in god...
Also the "Collumn"-effect is a myth..may it happens sometimes and was a benefit...but not the rule...they didnt have the luxury to sit hours on one place for goofi-shooting at defenceless targets..especialy the vulnerable Nashorns...
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I dont need to say that i have allways the same feelings about the accuracy especialy for the tiger I...and other vehikels..
Made also alot of tests and hade the same opinion on the battlefield. I couldn count how often my tigers missed (and i dont spoke from ranges over 1000 meters more from 100-500 this must normaly, and i play mostly in good weather, be a one shoot knockouter, may if things r bad, then with the second shoot)...and also against moving inf. insteed to shoot in front of thems...he follow the target until its out of range.
Im not only pro Germs, i also find the skfz with the short 75mm gun alot more accurate and made many kills against vanilla sherms. But i think this realistic up to 500 meters and the other guns r underrated.
The JTiger for example, couldn hit a skyscraper from over 1000 meters..best weapon plattform and optics..but..arg..
Uh...dont know why i answer to this question again...Doc..please..my medicine... :cool:
Does change nothing...still hope cm:bb will show us some realisticaly shooting accuracys..
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Sorry redwolf..i mean the germans..I did only have one surce about a AT-Fibel (or part of it)from a 3,7cm Pak.
Michael:
I know too the "offensive-defense" the germans practice sometimes but i mean too the situation in CM terms and the "normal" orders german at-teams have wen it comes to bring her weapons to a defense-line.
Sure, they didnt everytime dig in, maybe they cover a retreat or something else. In the first years they learned it the hard way...i saw also alot of pictures were at-guns stands in the open ground sometimes on streets. A other factor in this time period were the few tank-killing AFS, so they must bring At-guns to the ennemy tanks.
You must agree with me, so many arty the german faced, there was a good reason for them to dig in what they want. I would dig like hell...
After the introducing of JagdPanthers...the crew on the eastfront startet to dig them in too
Until Guderian himself forbid this practice. -
Dont forget, At Weapons were allways placed in dug in positions. I have here a nice Pic from the East-Front. On it, you see two 88 Flaks dug in in a downhill position. They r so deep in cover, the barrel is just only around 5cm over the ground (yes, with shilds). The all around hight messured from the ground is aprox. 80-100cm.
Also i doesnt like the way At-guns r implemnted in the defend. The standard prozedure was to dig the gun until the barrel into the ground. Then holes for the ammo and a mini trench were the crew can hide if they r in danger true Arty.
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I will see a darker JPanther Mod!! And also a second good one for a "normal" Panther beside the fernando Panther.
IMHo...the KTiger from darius <- spell?? r the best mod from all vehikels..If someone made the same for a Panther or even a Tiger I....i will send him 5 Bucks imeditialy...for it.
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Hi Erwin...
you go true the game until the end of the week??
I swear, on the 18. Dez. 2002 you come back here and ask "why do my tanks allways target first on mg`s"...LoL..
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You can have mine, but i must warn you, the shermans r now limitted due to heavy losses thrue some 88`s
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I read today, the cassualitys true friendly fire (on US side) was around 21% plus 75% as you mentioned thrue german arty comes to 96%..Im wonder why the germans build tanks and other supporting weapons.
I think the 75% is a bit overated..
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Until Guderian himself forbid this practice.
Museum trip
in Combat Mission Archive #4 (2002)
Posted
I`l agree with mike...let us start at 13:00 o`clock..so we have more time for drinking...
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(yes, i prefer to crawl under those tanks..
) ).