Bil Hardenberger

Well, even that you will take one step at a time.. and will not want to rush it. To be honest I don't know what anybody would put themselves through playing on a map like that. I really do hate urban combat and avoid it whenever possible.

This initial post has been updated with the latest iteration (v2d). Changes in this version: Moved the Intelligence Rule (no hit text) to the Advanced/Optional page Changed the movement rule in the following way: Squads, teams, and vehicles NOT IN C2 to their immediate superior can ONLY plot movement paths with one waypoint (two legs) OPTIONAL - CMSF 2 Irregular Forces Movement – these units can ONLY plot movement paths with ONE waypoint (two legs) regardless of their C2 status NOTE: This rule is intended to simulate the command and control difficulties with ill-trained irregular forces I always meant to add (and forgot again with this version), that HQ Units (HQ units only, not XO Teams, Command Squads, etc.) can always plot an unlimited number of movement legs (waypoints). That is why they are not included in the rule language shown above, but it isn't clear. They always have freedom of maneuver within their area of responsibility with no limits, unless the National Characteristics Rules are being used. I really do appreciate the input, I think this is a pretty strong set of rules now. Let me ask you this.. re: the bolded part of your quote text above: how many waypoints do you think an irregular unit can fulfill within each 60 second turn within the structures you list? I am okay with something like what you suggest, but it shouldn't be a string of movement commands that go over more than one turn. The reason is that these types of units (including out f C2 regulars in this) will be getting what we call Hip Pocket orders, something like, "assault the next room", "move to that treeline" and these orders would be to points within LOS.. I am not limiting to LOS of course, but the limited waypoints should force that... long movement legs can be dangerous as you know.

I have updated the rules to allow one waypoint, two legs of movement.. I have also made this standard for regular out of C2 units and that should allow more unit controlled behavior like moving into hull down, entering a building with a pause on the outside first, etc. without giving too much control.. I also am making the Irregular movement rule optional. I understand your concerns, but really IMO I think this will force players to move them slower and use shorter movement paths... that could be a good thing I think as it would illustrate poorer flexibility and coordination and more closely replicate the command and control problems these units (all out of C2 units and Irregular forces) must face than what is possible in the game right now. I will update the initial post in a bit with the latest iteration reflecting this change.

I like your style of writing. At this point you have to be feeling pretty good about how things are going. I’m sure there will be challenges ahead but you seem to be dominating the battle space.

What I am thinking about is changing the irregular rule to include up to one waypoint with any movement order. That should keep the C2 restriction and allow a little more tactical flexibility. Bil

Thank you @domfluff it was late when I saw those last two posts so I didn’t respond. You hit the nail on the head with this:

Here's the thing about these rules, they can be used ala cart, keep what you like and discard what you don't. As for the irregulars, What you are telling me is that an irregular force made up of farmers, shop keepers, and high school drop outs with little to no tactical training can be more effective than a fully trained Western style force of the same size.. sorry I don't believe that. Throw that rule out if you disagree... no hard feelings. As for direct fire.. I think of fire in two ways... area fire which is really recon by fire or suppressive in nature should be directed by a leader in support of a maneuver or other operation/action of some sort. I also think that the commander's role is to assign sectors of fire not to micro-manage how every unit under his command fulfills his responsibility within their assigned sectors, thus the restriction to direct fire. Those are my thoughts anyway, and you are free to disagree, I really do appreciate the feedback @Sgt.Squarehead and @Zveroboy1... you have given me food for thought. Bil

Great questions @MOS:96B2P.. I will take them one at a time: My intent was to get people thinking about property planning an artillery mission and especially thinking about duration... maybe today its easy to cancel a fire mission.. but in WW2? I am not so sure. If you look at Rule 1.a an attacker in an Attack or Assault scenario can indeed fire indirectly on turn 1, so he could plan it during setup. This rule has been removed from the latest iteration of the rules. It was more a hindrance to be honest than a help in play test to be honest. I have seen RockinHarry's very interesting mod, but I really need the enemy icons to be honest... I would rather the unit info box be blacked out.. that would be more in lone with what we really need. Maybe an enterprising modder can whip that up. When I say "superior" I meant direct superior.. so if the unit is a Squad, it's Platoon Leader would have to have the UI contact and the squad would have to be in C2. I have an example of this rule in action in the CMSF 2 AAR thread... this post and this one. My thinking behind this rule is that irregular forces should not be able to maneuver as flexibly as a regular unit... it has nothing to do, in my opinion, with how well they know the ground but is a reflection of their less than professional leadership and training. I would do this check during the order phase... I will keep the distance check in mind for this rule.. but I like the ease of clicking and checking for LOS to the HQ... also I expect that HQs would want to keep these teams close... at least until they dropped them off in a position.. but they would have to return for them eh? Adds to the challenge. Great questions! I hope my answers were sufficient. Looking forward to your analysis of the Advanced rules.. make sure you use the latest version. Bil

Minute 10 Axis Bravo I had moved one of my infantry teams (RPG) to the roof of the Farm House to get a better view on @IanL's approach... quickly they uncovered two BMP-2s ... They quickly took aim at one of the BMPs and.. well, here is the result... The picture is getting clearer on this approach... my team on the roof can now spot three BMP-2s sitting on the far Red Ridge, the two mentioned above to their right (one less now) and now.. a BRDM AT traveling with the two BMPs. Nasty. I am seriously outgunned on this approach. Note that the BMP that was hit in the GIF above no longer has an icon.. proof that it has been knocked out. The infantry team did not, however, have long to live... the BRDM-AT lauched an ATGM at the Farm House... The missile flew true.. and I swear they rarely work that well when I'm commanding them Following is an overview of the situation to this point... I have a pretty good grasp on Ian's force... the sacrifice of the infantry team was well worth it in my opinion. Knowledge is king in battle.. not artillery. There was no action this turn on Axis Alpha... but it will liven up very soon.

Thanks, I'm looking forward to hearing how your play test goes.

Okay, I have updated the initial post with the very latest rules.. I used images instead of the text as it was impossible to keep formatted correctly. Click on the images to zoom in, or simply click on the PDF link, as that is also the latest version. I appreciate all the input its been invaluable. Bil

I am going to remove that specific rule about vehicle smoke grenades for now. We can revisit it later.. it was the disembarking under a smoke screen that sealed it for me.. that definitely is a good tactical use of them. This is why the back and froth is so valuable.. its hard to keep the full picture in view throughout.

Not simple? Hmmm I remember the old days of memorizing 100 pages of war game rules, so to me these are pretty easy. ..as for enforceability. You are correct, they aren’t enforceable. If you have to worry about that then you need a new opponent.

I know Russian armored vehicles have smoke generators that they use tactically (not represented in CM). But I do believe the smoke grenades are mainly for protection. Happy to be proven wrong though.

Of course you can always choose not to use it

Can you show me where BMPs using their smoke grenades tactically is SOP? re: 3a.. yeah I also found it frustrating... I see the reason, but in practice it was a pain. Maybe I'll get rid of it.

I am adding one more rule... it should be the last one.. it will be an Advanced/Optional rule but it answers a need (brought up by @BletchleyGeek in the other thread: 8. HEADQUARTERS UNITS a. A unit may check for C2 against a higher echelon HQ i. Example: a Squad is not within C2 of its PL – but clicking on the Squad shows that it can spot the Company HQ unit, it is considered in C2 and may receive orders as such ii. This check is only applicable in the following circumstances: 1. The HQ unit is in the unit’s chain of command (i.e. if a Platoon, then the superior Company or Battalion HQ, a neighboring Company HQ is NOT eligible) 2. The HQ unit has not suffered a casualty to its Commander iii. NOT applicable to Command Squads and XO Teams. b. HQ Casualty: If a formation loses its HQ or its officer as a casualty, the lowest numbered surviving Squad/Team/Vehicle takes over. To be in C2 all subunits must check LOS to determine whether they are in C2 or not.

I get where you are coming from @Haiduk but that isn’t what I am going for with these. I think as the over all CO you still need to be able to view the map from any angle, especially from above.

Good point.. I think adding the following rule might solve the issue with attached units: ATTACHED UNITS - If a support team has been attached to a formation other than its organic HQ, it is considered to be within C2 as long as it can fully spot the HQ unit that it is attached to. Example using Iron - An HMG Team has been assigned to 2d Platoon - Click on the HMG Team, the floating icon for the 2nd Platoon HQ unit it is showing direct LOS (the HQ Team is visible on the map and the fully identified floating icon (not showing a UI icon or no icon at all for that HQ unit)), this HMG Team is considered to be within C2 Thoughts? Bil

This thread is an offshoot of the Co-op AAR that @IanL and I have ongoing in the CMFS 2 forum. In that game we tested a set of realism rules we called the Hard Cat Rules. Well I have been doing a lot of talking about perhaps adding some rule additions to that basic set and got some great feedback and ideas along the way. What follows are my extended rules, my intent was to maintain ease of use, and the basic rules fit on one standard page, so they can easily be printed out and referred to during play. My main goal was to create the feeling of Command and Control without overwhelming the players with spreadsheets or writing stuff down (like my previous attempt). I am looking for feedback and suggestions with these, if you think they are too complex tell me why.. if they don't make sense to you let me know, etc. Here are the basic rules - a formatted PDF Version available at this link This PDF includes all of the latest additions (version 2H) - UPDATED 01JUN22 Click the image to see full size. The following Advanced or Optional Rules also fit on one page, they are on page two of the PDF linked above. Click the image to see full size.

Minute 9 We are starting to slow down now as the action heats up... maybe @IanL would like to give his thoughts on the opening move to contact. Axis Alpha The images below show that I have moved both the ZSU from my reserve force and one BTR to Blue Ridge (KT-1), both are hull down. Another two BTRs are in the woods to the right of the ridge (also hull down). Additionally, an AT-13 is in these woods setting up to overwatch any movement across the map in the Axis Bravo sector. The top image, through the magic of Photoshop, illustrates my use of cover arcs to ensure my units stay focused and have good overlapping coverage of Red Gully. The ZSU is mainly there to provide overwatch for any infantry movement over the Bridge. It didn't take long for the BTR on KT-1 to spot an enemy vehicle in the Red Gully... so these are BRDM recon vehicles, at least this one is. I am guessing that the formation of four light armored vehicles moving through Red Gully toward the Gully Intersection is in fact a Recon platoon of four BRDMs. the good news is that my infantry will be better armed and more capable than the recon troops, but the bad news.. the BRDM has the same weapon system my BTRs do and they are as capable of killing me as I am them. The BTR opened and fired on the BRDM without hesitation... though I don't know the extent of any damage, the BRDM did in fact take at least one casualty and was hit and penetrated many times: Axis Bravo On Axis Bravo, I was a little incautious as I pushed my two Recon Squads forward in order to keep eyes as far forward as possible... I do pay for my cheek as I lose one complete team to what I suspect was BMP fire and the second takes one casualty. However, their sacrifice pays off as I do identify at least one of the light armored vehicles moving into the open area to the right-front of the Farm House, an F-ing BMP 2. I suspect both vehicles in this area are BMPs, with perhaps a third that I have yet to get a contact on (a BMP platoon has three vehicles). We shall see... ...stay tuned, Axis Bravo may be coming to a tipping point!

I am curious... what is your issue with the one minute turns? I find it interesting that @IanL rarely uses covered arcs... yeah, in that case any rule for using them would really be just a hindrance. I would never sign on a for a rule that forced them on somebody... this is a game after all and still needs to be fun to play.

Well.. even in your description as a control of when and when not open fire. that is a Control (the second C in Command and Control) and in real life, in many cases, is the responsibility of the Platoon Leader (and probably the Company CO in Soviet style formations)... especially when identifying limits of fire for each squad/team, etc.. So IMO it is a good candidate for some restrictions. Here is an example of a Platoon Sector Sketch.. zones of responsibility are shown as cover arcs. I may be one of the few people who use cover arcs for this purpose in game during my planning. But then I have often been brought to task for my use of cover arcs (especially when I use tight cover arcs)... but hey, it works for me in most cases as it concentrates a unit's eyes in the area I want them focused on. Absolutely worth diving into and exploring the potential of your points here. We are all just chatting right now waiting for the next turn to get posted (won't be one from me today, sorry), so this back and forth discussion is good! Also, not everybody is going to agree and that's okay. Bil

Though I want to say yes.. I think it would be tough to make a determination with those HQ units with regard to C2. But really that kind of micro-managing should be left within the Platoon structure.

Miguel, that rule was to allow units that are on recon duties or separated from the main body the ability to recon by fire or protect themselves. Not sure about the second part of your question as the PL is not required for this rule.