rune
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Posts posted by rune
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Since it sems only House Rune is playing the beauty that CMBN is, why should my knight not challenge my squire, squid, whatever. I believe Buzzy was a serf and turf, as he failed to taunt a member of another house *boot* Maybe he won't disappoint me, as Marlow and NGcavscout have, but at least *boot* they followed up with their challenges and writings. I remember ngcavscout's thesis, "Which has more brains, stomach lint or House Shaw."
As for hey boo boo, I supposed we can try to get him a computer from this century. I mean, we are talking about a man used still uses a slide rule to figure out his change from a dollar.
Rune
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Original question:
First off forgive my noobness in these matters. I have searched the forums and google, but I can't find any good reference to using 88's as indirect artillery. I experimented with it quite effectively in a QB, but I was just wondering about the historical accuracy of doing so.
Correct Answer: Yes, it was historically done. At Omaha, during Goodwood, and during the Battle of the Bulge.
Debatable points: FFE beaten zone. OK, shots will land elongated, but target can still be linear or circular.
Rune
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JonS,
Correct me if I am wrong, but the problems the 88 would have firing indirect would be the same as the vickers firing indirect? Flat trajectory, can't change cartridge, but i know you kiwis love the vickers and indirect fire, and it was used. Smae principles in general?
Rune
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jasonc, yes, i also show the american 90mm used as counter-battery fire, which surprised me.
magpie, as both jon and the artillery officer said, 3000-4000 meters, they could easily shoot over a hill, depending on a lot of things I already stated. Saying the 88mm could not fire indirect is NOT correct. There are records of German units doing exactly that, Omaha Beach, Goodwood, Baattle of the Bulge. Bastables, Jon, and others have already pointed out the units.
So, for the original poster, yes, in certain circumstances the 88mm flak could and did fire indirectly. So did the American 90mm aa gun which is quite similar. The game allows these circumstances to happen, as last I looked, Omaha and Goodwood both took place in Normandy.
Rune
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Boo
In one of my evil new scenarios? Oh forgot, you have a computer that even an Aussie would laugh at... Don't worry, maybe someday you will have a computer from this decade.
Rune
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This may help, i searched til I found it as an apology to Jon. Jon can make more sense of it then I, as I am familiar with missles and radar.
So, Michael, Jon, here is the complete document from the Allies of the 88mm, which does state it can be fired in the indirect mode.
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/TM/PDFs/TME9-369A_Germ88.pdf
Rune
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Jon, out of context, I didn't add everything that was posted, the first part was from someone else, the second was the officer's reply. Sorry was cutting and pasting and didnt make it clear. He makes it quite clear rounds could be faster, I suggest anyone interested go to the thread and read it. The point was, indirect fire could occur without firing up to 30,000 feet.
Rune
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Comment from user:
Depending on the range, and other factors such as the clearance of fires over trees, from defilade, weather conditions, etc., the 88mm could and did fire indirect fire missions using a low enough elevation which eliminated the need for high elevation/high trajectory fires. The US often used its 90mm AAA guns as indirect artillery weapons, and they worked just fine regardless of the elevation used. The use of the 88mm for indirect fire was a common practice. I can tell you that veterans, men who had been shot at and missed a few times, could tell exactly what type of round was coming in. Remember, indirect fire projectiles are always subsonic, and you can hear them coming. A 20 something pound shell sounds quite different than a 90 pound shell as it comes in, short or over. This is what makes identification possible. Artillery fire sounds very different than mortars, so there was no way they could be confused.
I hope this helps.
Don't be misled. Real combat veterans usually knew what they were up against at the time. The so-called after-action reports tend to bear this out.
Comment from artilleryman:
The variable here are the height of the masking feature you fire over, the range, and the projectile velocity of the cannon. I dont have a firing table or the trajectory chart for the 88 models at hand, tho I've studied them. beyond 3,000 to 4,000 meters it was not necessary to use 'high angle' fire (a elevation or tube above 45 degrees) to fire the 88 FLAK cannon over most masking terrain features. Not as flexible as a howitzer, but unless the masking feature is very close to the target or the howizer, or is very tall like a mountain theres no need to point the FLAK gun at the sky and lob the projectiles to 30,000 feet.
From an artillery officer's comments on armchair general.
Rune
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Magpie, actually not...more on that in a bit.
TM E9-369A: German 88-mm Antiaircraft Gun Materiel
Technical Manual, War Department, June 29, 1943
[DISCLAIMER: The following text is taken from a WWII U.S. War Department Technical Manual. As with all manuals, the text may be incomplete or inaccurate. No attempt has been made to update or correct the contents of the original technical manual. Any views or opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the website.]
CHAPTER 4
SIGHTING AND FIRE CONTROL EQUIPMENT
Section I
INTRODUCTION
ParagraphIntroduction ..................................................................................................73
73. INTRODUCTION.
a. The sighting and fire control equipment for the 8.8 cm Flak 18 or 36 varies, depending on the use to which the weapon is put. The gun may be used for direct fire as in antitank work, for indirect fire, or for antiaircraft fire.
b. For direct fire the telescopic sight ZF.20E (Zielfernrohr 20E) is used for laying the gun in azimuth and elevation. This sight, consisting of elbow telescope, telescope mount, and range drum is mounted on a bracket geared to the elevation quadrant on the right-hand side of the top carriage. The gun is laid in elevation by matching its pointer on the elevation quadrant against a pointer controlled by the telescopic sight.
c. The gun may be laid in azimuth and elevation against aircraft, moving ground or sea targets in accordance with data obtained from a director. Either of two directors may be used. The stereoscopic director Kdo. Gr. 36 (Kommandogerät 36) connects electrically to the on-carriage equipment for blackout dial matching. The auxiliary director Kdo. Hi. Gr. 35 (Kommandohilfsgerät 35) develops data which are telephoned to the gun crew. It is much lighter than the Kdo. Gr. 36 and is intended for mobile use. It is designed to be carried by porter bar.
d. When the stereoscopic director Kdo. Gr. 36 is used, the off carriage equipment includes a distribution box; a switchboard with battery source of power for telephone and transmission of data; cables connecting the director to the distribution box, switchboard, and guns. The on-carriage equipment includes the instruments listed below:
(1) The panoramic telescope Rbl. F. 32 (Rundblickfernrohr 32) which is placed in a telescope holder on the top of the recuperator for initial orientation of the guns with the director.
(2) The azimuth indicator.
(3) The elevation indicator.
(4) The fuze setter.
(5) On-carriage wiring and boxes.
e. When the auxiliary director Kdo. Hi. Gr. 35 is used, a 4-meter range finder (separately connected) furnishes slant range.
f. Information is not available on the switchboard, the off-carriage cables, or the height finder telescopes of the Kdo. Gr. 36.
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Also found this:
There were some 8.8cm Flak units that were given a panzer jager role and removed their anti aircraft aiming equipment. They also did not take their range finders and predictors with them so trying to fire in an anti aircraft role would have been very difficult.
As Carl as said a normal battery would in seconds switch from one role to another. The 8.8cm Flak 18 had three types of sight, direct fire telescope mainly for for firing at tanks or bunkers, the follow the dial sights used with the range finder and predictor for anti aircraft fire and a dial sight for indirect fire. Whan the battery went into action the postion of each gun would have been orientated and then information recorded in the predictor. If your going to tell a gun where to shoot and what time the fuze needs to explode the shell you need to know where it is. While doing this it is a couple of seconds extra work to set the dial sight up for indirect fire should the battery be expected to give fire support to ground units. Even if this was not done, with an anti aircraft gun it would still be able to fire indirect using the predictor and the follow the dial aiming equipment once the information on where the target is has been recieved from the observer.
Rune
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Yes, my reference sources match what JasonC says, not only the Fjs, but other units. Supposedly the Americans used some 88s in the indirect fire mode for counter-battery fire also, but I do NOT have reliable references for that.
Rune
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I did research on this, and the 88mm was used as artillery, especially at the beaches. Here is what I quoted:
Yep, here is the passage:
There were three methods of fire control, by radar or predictor though a data transmission system for AA fire, direct laying through the sights for the anti-tank role, and indirect fire in conjunction with a range-finder.
Also here:
(4) Fire control. The gun may be laid on the target by three methods :
(a) Indirect laying, by matching the pointers of the data receivers, which are controlled by the director (the Kommandogerat)
(
Direct laying, by means of the Flak ZF 20-E telescopic sight. Vertical and lateral deflections are applied to the telescope, and the man at the azimuth handwheel puts the cross hairs on the target. The gun is elevated by the man on the elevation handwheel, who follows an indicating arm which moves with the sight.© The dial sight may be used for laying the gun in azimuth, while the quadrant elevation is set in by the elevation man as ordered.For good information, here is the website:
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Schully,
I have seen problems witht he built in firewall with windows 7, you may want to have him check the port on that. The default of the firewall is turned on.
Rune
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Stop prattling. "top do" ??
Now. It's time for a momentous decision. Radley thinks he is an olde one - lower case that is - and since he is not even playing the game perhaps he should be placed into the same category as Emrys (spelt, not bolded). Aka - losers** Obviously Emrys (spelt, not bolded) might SAY he has the game, but since he hasn't challenged anyone maybe it's time to send them both packing until they get their stuff together, so to speak.
Send them to the wastelands!
Noba.
** Losers may not be applicable to people that don't actually play but then, they are losers.
Point of order... Boo already lives in a wasteland called Ohio. I say let's send him to... Australia!!!
Rune
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Page 2, really? Back in year 2 BJ [before Justicar you pervs] this would of never happened. Both Boo and Joebob slacking off as it were. Oh sure, Joebob will come up with an excuse like work, or he was with one of his Mormon wives. You know, making up an excuse like an Emrys caught playing veteran while his opponent plays Iron mode. Oh, I am sorry Boo, i forgot your computer isn't from this century. You haven't seen the beauty of CMBN personally yet.
Rune
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As designed, you have to have a minimum of 2 sections, put next to each other and they will face whichever way you put them.
Rune
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Sgt Joch,
Indeed nice find, it is the map I got from the US Army. I am doing the far right hand side of the bombardment area, 30th Infantry vs the 352nd. I got the elevation and water in, going to start with the hedgerows soon.
I know it was the 120th Infantry regiment in the attack, but they had losses. Am at work, think it was 64 killed that day by the air bombardment. I also have the tank support [have the unit at home].
Speedy, I'll be sending it to whoever helps me and 1-2 others that helped me with other projects, but that will be it.
Rune
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You have progressed mightily young Boo Radley, I see that my tutelage hasn't been entirely in vain.
These rules I find to be adequate ... which is a vast improvement over your usual abominable.
Let us hope that the SSNs who wander in here expecting to find the answers to their obscure questions about 60mm mortars will actually (a) be ABLE to read them and (
have the necessary modicum of wit to understand them.By the way, I am breaking my usual habit of not taking a personal laptop on business next week ... guess why.
Joe
Joebob, of course it was in vain, after all it is Boo we are talking about. Being from the House of jdmorse alone makes it all in vain.
Rune
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Blackcat and Stikky are both correct. An example, I use high bocage, with short grass, and randonly put trees within the bocage [or where I don't want it crossable]. So yes, the detail or the terrain is much more exact, and there would not be a simple way of defining the terrain. May seem a little daunting at first, but you get used to it after designing maps for a while.
Rune
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Johnny Canuck, yes, as a reference, I obviously won't use it as a single source.
Martyr, thanks, I don't have that one, will have to go get it.
MS, yes, that was at the start, however, heavy casualties from the fighting at Omaha had reduced those numbers greatly. 916th was not at Normandy but fighting in the Hedgerows, it is why the 352nd during Cobra was a mix of 5 divisions. Thank you however.
The Americans led with the 120th Infantry Battalion. Seems they were the worse hit unit from the friendly fire bombings, and almost didn't kick off.
In the meantime, creating the map. Lots of work to do...
Rune
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I am in the process of making a historical battle for myself. I got some excellent maps from the US Army, but want a little more detail on the units.
Operation Cobra, 25 July 1944.
American Unit, 30th Infantry Division, a National Guard Infantry Division, hit hard by American Bombers 2 dyas in a row.
German Unit: 352nd Infantry Division, which was actually the remains of about 5 divisions under that name.
If you have anything in depth of the units during the attack, let me know.
Rune
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And that's earned him the nickname, "Ol' Soppy Joe".
When he flies a Sopwith someone else flew, he earns himself the title of "Soppy Seconds" Joe
Rune
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I can think of three: crimes against humanity, international tribunal in the Hague, and awkward questions from the special victims unit.
and the fearless dedication to the pope, no, the four things you can think of...
Rune
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Evilness sent to Hiram and Joebob. Seems fitting the two of them together.
Rune
Direct laying, by means of the Flak ZF 20-E telescopic sight. Vertical and lateral deflections are applied to the telescope, and the man at the azimuth handwheel puts the cross hairs on the target. The gun is elevated by the man on the elevation handwheel, who follows an indicating arm which moves with the sight.© The dial sight may be used for laying the gun in azimuth, while the quadrant elevation is set in by the elevation man as ordered.
Peng Challenge Screen Shot Thread
in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy
Posted
Boo posted this elsewhere:
"This. Helps. Alot.
I probably would have discovered it eventually, by reading the manual (Which, with my pathetically short attention span will only take me until CMx3 comes out, a version which will plug directly into your brain) but it's so much easier when I can find people to do these things for me."
if it does, then we know you won't be getting CMX3.
Boo says:
"Is this also the way one can find out who's who in the unit? Right now I look at the list and one guy's spotting and another guy is cowering (Cowering? There IS NO cowering in CM!), a third guy's singing the blues and another one is doing Sudoku, for crying out loud, and I never know who's doing what."
I am most certainly surprised your pixeltruppen haven't stopped, pointed at the monitor screen and laughed hysterically. The reason maybe that they don't live long enough to do exactly that with you as their commander.
All, since we shall not make fun of his lack of computer, may I suggest we all pitch in our $20s and buy Boo a clue? Nothing fancy, a small clue will do, it would be much more then what he has now.
ngcavscout, as a member of House Rune, i expect you to declare a Blood Hamster Feud against Boo, and smartly destroy him in the demo scenarios. Now be a good lad *Boot* and off you go.
Rune