Ammo question. .30cal M2

[DavidFields]

I have just begun to concentrate on Ammo.

The Garrand, it uses what ammo? The manual talks about "Springfield" loads, but I hope it uses .30cal M2--whatever that is.

Is that correct? ("Search" did not help me)

[Michael Emrys]

I believe all the .30 cal weapons in the US arsenal except the carbine use the M2. So yes, the Garand, the Springfield, and the MGs (except for the .50 cal) use the same ammo in the game. (In real life, the MGs were supplied with somewhat different rounds, but even so could be fired interchangeably with the rifle rounds.)

Michael

[Bimmer]

Yep, M2 Ball is just what the military called .30-'06.

[BloodyBucket]

IIRC, .30 M2 Ball uses a 152gr flat based bullet, and the .30 M1 used a heavier 174gr boat tail bullet to give better long range performance to machineguns, when MG barrages were still considered a player on the battlefield. They started out with a flat based bullet, "upgraded" to a boat tail, then went back to a flat base because the heavier bullet overshot the safety zone of a lot of NG ranges and probably kicked like a mule in the 1903 Springfield.

M2 was issued for rifle, BAR and MG use in WWII, and the M1 ball was pretty much obsolete, but since it tended to be more accurate it saw limited use by snipers, although it was probably more common for them to use the M2 AP ammo that had a reputation for better accuracy.

[Oddball_E8]

Heh... grogs... makes me all warm and fuzzy in the heart

[Georgie]

How about the Springfield bolt action sniper rifle? Is it's ammo supplied in the game from the M2 30cal? Seems like I've read that it's magazine had to be filled one round at a time due to the scope getting in the way of using a stripper clip. In any case I'm assuming that the game simulates taking rounds out of the Garand inbloc clips or?

[YankeeDog]

How about the Springfield bolt action sniper rifle? Is it's ammo supplied in the game from the M2 30cal? Seems like I've read that it's magazine had to be filled one round at a time due to the scope getting in the way of using a stripper clip. In any case I'm assuming that the game simulates taking rounds out of the Garand inbloc clips or?

The scope did indeed get in the way of using stripper clips on the M1903A4, but I don't think the designated marksman would normally be loading from Garand en bloc clips -- there was plenty of .30 M2 ammo that was pushed forward to front line units loose, in cardboard boxes. BAR gunners, for example, were expected to save their empty magazines and reload them with loose ammo during downtime.

So I'd expect that marksmen with a Springfield would go to this kind of ammo supply first. Of course, if they completely ran out of ammo and the only thing around was Garand en bloc clips, then the marksman might well start stripping the en bloc clips to reload.

[Georgie]

The scope did indeed get in the way of using stripper clips on the M1903A4, but I don't think the designated marksman would normally be loading from Garand en bloc clips -- there was plenty of .30 M2 ammo that was pushed forward to front line units loose, in cardboard boxes. BAR gunners, for example, were expected to save their empty magazines and reload them with loose ammo during downtime.

So I'd expect that marksmen with a Springfield would go to this kind of ammo supply first. Of course, if they completely ran out of ammo and the only thing around was Garand en bloc clips, then the marksman might well start stripping the en bloc clips to reload.

Thanks YankeeDog, interesting point on the BAR gunners reloading their own magazines. Did the Thompson and Grease gunners also have to reload their own magazines?

[Phantom Captain]

Yep, .45 mags had to be manually reloaded too.

As an interesting aside, I have a good friend who fought in Vietnam with the 25th Infantry Division 1/5 Mechanized and he told me they did the same with their M16 ammo. It came in cardboard boxes loose and had to be manually reloaded into their magazines. He said they never dropped the mags as you never wanted to leave anything for the enemy to pick up. He told me that even during firefights, if there were a few minutes of downtime he would start reloading his mags. He hated to feel he was running low or would not have enough ammo. I entirely see his point. :eek:

And another thing regarding the Garand Enbloc clips (which are actual clips by the way and not magazines, modern vernacular makes them interchangeable terms but they most certainly are not) is that they are actually really easy to unload. They way they are sprung is that if you simply pop one bullet out of the clip the other 7 fall right out.

Here's five rounds of 8mm Mauser on a stripper compared to 8 rounds of .30-06 in an enbloc clip.

[YankeeDog]

Thanks YankeeDog, interesting point on the BAR gunners reloading their own magazines. Did the Thompson and Grease gunners also have to reload their own magazines?

Don't know for sure, but I would guess so. In general, the WWII-era U.S. Army did not not consider box magazines disposable, and soldiers were supposed to save them for re-loading rather than just toss them away.

This said, I'm sure there were many times in the heat of battle when soldiers decided that letting the empty mag drop to the ground to reload just a bit faster was more important than avoiding whatever disciplinary action would result from losing a mag or two, and I'm also sure the logistics chain made at least some allowance for replacement mags.

I've actually also read accounts of riflemen having to scavenge empty Garand en bloc clips off the battlefield and reload them by borrowing an MG belt or two from a tank or MG team, due to short supply. But I don't think the en bloc clips were expected to be retrieved under normal circumstances, and AFAIK ammo was usually supplied to riflemen already pre-loaded into the en bloc clips.

[DavidFields]

Incredible RL information!

Now for in-game CMBN stuff: I had been pulling ammo out of jeeps and trucks, and realize I may have been pulling the wrong stuff out for the wrong units. In particularly, I was looking at Garand rifles and thinkng "carbine". I was also looking at .45 ammo and thinking it was only for pistols.

But is this correct?:

M2: Garrand, (non.50 cal) MGs, sniper rifle, and BAR

Carbine ammo: only for M1 Carbine

.45 ammo: for pistols, Thompson, and Grease gun

If that is correct, the tricky issue for me is noting the difference between whether has Garrands or Carbines, and if there is a Thompson/Grease gun in the unit.

[YankeeDog]

Yes; I believe your breakdown is correct.

[DavidFields]

Thank, YankeeDog.

The one thing that still puzzles me is the amount of .45 ammo available--not that much, like 50-60 rounds per gun-- and the Thompson/Grease gun. You would think those weapons would run through a lot of ammo. But is that Working as Designed? Quick sprays for close distance targets?

And does that mean that units without Thompson/Grease guns or pistols do not need .45 ammo, or will a rifle soldier soldier switch to a pistol if, for instance, he is out of rifle ammo?

[Chops]

We covered this issue extensively a while back -

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=96243

[YankeeDog]

The one thing that still puzzles me is the amount of .45 ammo available--not that much, like 50-60 rounds per gun-- and the Thompson/Grease gun. You would think those weapons would run through a lot of ammo. But is that Working as Designed? Quick sprays for close distance targets?

Which units are you thinking of? Admittedly, I've never done a comprehensive survey, but all of the front-line U.S. infantry units I've seen in the game thus far carry 150 rounds of .45 cal. ammo per Thompson SMG (assuming full supply, of course). Units that aren't primarily infantry combatants, like tank and other vehicle crews carry substantially less ammo for their SMG(s) (if they have one), but this makes sense.

One change that is apparently coming with v1.01 is that soldiers with SMGs will be less inclined to burn ammo firing at longer ranges where SMGs are only marginally effective. .45 ACP, while a very effective as a close combat round, has a very slow muzzle velocity and also loses velocity quickly with range.

Right now, a soldier with a Thompson will happily fire at a target 200m away, wasting a substantial amount of ammo for marginal effect. It will be nice to see this behavior change.

[DavidFields]

We covered this issue extensively a while back -

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=96243

A very long thread.

My humble suggestion would be to either sticky something, or....and I really like this idea...have uprgradable downloadable manuals.

Or, fortunately for BFC if there are a lot of customers, you are going to get the same questions every 1-2 months.