Buffalo Vetearns Court

[Magpie_Oz]

Yes, found it overrated. I couldn't finish the follow-up.

So you missed picking up on the Nazi/Nazi sympathisers in Sweden in WW2 that are central to the book? Bit of a common theme in Scandinavian countries, SS-Viking Division ?

[Magpie_Oz]

Throw another line out, Magpie.

Why? the few I have now are full o' fish.

[Stalins Organ]

I don't see restricting the right to vote to those who have "served the state" as being either accurate as a description of the SST's system, or as a tenet of fascism.

In the book citizens are those who serve _society_ IIRC - the state is actually quite subordinate to the needs of people - government is actually almost unimportant....except insofar as it meets the needs of people - in that respect it is very important indeed.

Fascism does also ahve people serving the state - but the state is seen as more important than the individuals, and nothing else can be tolerated - fascism must be authoritarian - it cannot exist otherwise, so if there's a restriction on voting it is to those who will vote fascist - whethe htey have done any particular service or not - ie to party members, or restricted by outlawing other parties or voting entirely!

I see them as quite different.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

You are still equating Fascism with conscription. As I said it is more Fascist if the military is reserved for a "privileged elite" (Waffen-SS for example) and that service entitles you to a different place in society.

As I understand it the SST military is not limited to anyone. Open to all comers.

Also, unlike Waffen SS, it has allegiance to the democratic state. The Waffen SS, and indeed the Wehrmacht, had allegiance to the party. Bit of a huge difference.

Really, the military service in SST is little more then paying taxes in another form. You try not paying your taxes and before too long you won't be able to vote either. Indeed, in SST the democracy goes easy for anyone not willing to pay the price of citizenship.

I do not think an opt-in Demoratic franchise is fascism.

Say, are Free2play games fascist? You can play for free, or pay and get more out of the game. Same set up really.

[Magpie_Oz]

As I understand it the SST military is not limited to anyone. Open to all comers.

Also, unlike Waffen SS, it has allegiance to the democratic state. The Waffen SS, and indeed the Wehrmacht, had allegiance to the party. Bit of a huge difference.

Sure it is open to all comers, who make the grade and serve 2+ years. That is the entire point you are only allowed to have a say in who makes the laws in the country if you survive a minimum of 2 years of military indoctrination, which is going to lead to a fairly homogeneous mind set within the voting public.

The SS and Wehrmacht actually swore allegiance to AH so that is the main difference, SST swear allegiance to the constitution and the commander in chief, who must have been a soldier, which is not all that different really.

Really, the military service in SST is little more then paying taxes in another form. You try not paying your taxes and before too long you won't be able to vote either.

Not in my world mate, you get (in fact are required) to vote whatever your status in Australia. Only restriction is that a declared bankrupt cannot stand for public office. If you haven't paid your taxes you have some explaining to do to the ATO nothing else, have not checked but I believe this to be the case in most democracies.

Indeed, in SST the democracy goes easy for anyone not willing to pay the price of citizenship.

I do not think an opt-in Demoratic franchise is fascism.

Seemingly it does but the UNDERCURRENT is that those who "opt out" don't really count for much in the grand scheme of things. Rico's rich back ground for example is portrayed as superficial and unfullfilling as compared to the glory of nukeing a "skinny" temple, not that we are racist or xenophobic.

Say, are Free2play games fascist? You can play for free, or pay and get more out of the game. Same set up really.

Your kidding right?

Keep in mind I am saying that there is some evidence to support the notion that Starship Troopers contains Fascist principals as has been suggested for many years, not that Heinlein is Fascist, as I said I am not sold ether way but I can see the parallels.

More to the point I am saying that the Buffalo Court which provides different rights to veterans is reminiscent of the ideals portrayed in Starship Troopers, which is possibly the top of a slippery slope.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Sure it is open to all comers, who make the grade and serve 2+ years. That is the entire point you are only allowed to have a say in who makes the laws in the country if you survive a minimum of 2 years of military indoctrination, which is going to lead to a fairly homogeneous mind set within the voting public.

A homogeneous mindset (not convinced of that assumption in the first place) is NOT fascism. Yes, yes, I know what fascism means. But that term has political meaning. What your job was before you voted has none.

Mere shared values does not equate fascism. Again, it is still a democratic system that allows for hippies to gain the reigns.

The SS and Wehrmacht actually swore allegiance to AH so that is the main difference, SST swear allegiance to the constitution and the commander in chief, who must have been a soldier, which is not all that different really.

Obeying a democratically elected CiC in accordance to the constitution is not all that different from swearing allegiance to the dictator Adolf Hitler, according to you? If Obama only had served in the military, he'd be indistinguishable from Mussolini? On what basis you make that monumental leap?!

Not in my world mate, you get (in fact are required) to vote whatever your status in Australia. Only restriction is that a declared bankrupt cannot stand for public office. If you haven't paid your taxes you have some explaining to do to the ATO nothing else, have not checked but I believe this to be the case in most democracies.

Oh? I can just drop by come election time and vote? No, I must be a citizen of Australia. That tends to put one in the way of paying taxes. And if one refuse to pay taxes, I assume one eventually gets jailed. Much voting in jail?

Seemingly it does but the UNDERCURRENT is that those who "opt out" don't really count for much in the grand scheme of things. Rico's rich back ground for example is portrayed as superficial and unfullfilling as compared to the glory of nukeing a "skinny" temple, not that we are racist or xenophobic.

Undercurrent. That is what it was boils down to for you, doesn't it? Not actual observed facts, but what makes you feel a bit icky in your underbelly. Steering dangerously close to "don't approve of this, thus this is fascist.

Your kidding right?

:eek:

Well done Sherlock.

Keep in mind I am saying that there is some evidence to support the notion that Starship Troopers contains Fascist principals as has been suggested for many years, not that Heinlein is Fascist, as I said I am not sold ether way but I can see the parallels.

The evidence seems mostly based on the idea that you can't have military men anywhere near a democracy. A wafer thin notion.

More to the point I am saying that the Buffalo Court which provides different rights to veterans is reminiscent of the ideals portrayed in Starship Troopers, which is possibly the top of a slippery slope.

Except of course veterans aren't getting any rights. They can claim none, zilch, zero. It is entirely done at the discretion of a democratically elected DA, who can put him in this rehabilitation system that is batting well above average. It is not like vets are getting away with murder here.

God forbid we want criminals to reform at the stated 100% rate. Where would society be? Other then cheering in the streets at this unparalleled success of the legal system.

Is the targeted rehabilitation drunks or junkies fascism to you too? No? So it is soldiers you have problem with.

It is about as slippery a slope as building highways leads to gassing jews.

[dieseltaylor]

Just something that popped into my in-box and as I had been sating peer pressure was the most powerful .......

Peer Pressure

Sometimes, firmly held memory representations in the brain are altered by external social influences in a phenomenon called "memory conformity." Edelson et al. (p. 108; see the Perspective by Roediger and McDermott) used a behavioral paradigm in combination with brain imaging to elucidate the brain mechanisms involved. After watching a documentary and completing a memory task, individuals were presented with fake memories from other participants. Even when their original recollection was correct, a large number of participants conformed to the majority opinion and gave incorrect answers, even after being informed about the original manipulations. Such persistent errors were associated with enhanced activity in the hippocampus, as well as in the amygdala during the test.

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-06-social-pressure-falsifies-memory.html

the link is to an article on the same news

With regard to serving your country before having rights. It seems strange that it is quoted as miltitary service. My stance here has always been that serving in say hospitals for 2 years before university, or peace corps or land army could all be service to the state. And no military class involved.

The conceptt hat one has duties to the state is probably a useful bonding experience and provides a degree of national cohesion. There is the interesting human need for a feeling of permanence/ regularity. I will not embark on what percentage of the population seeks novelty as compared to those of a more sedate nature.

Modern life is awash with constant change - not through any merit necessarily simply people seeing a new way to make money - and of course media exists on drama and change.

\the monarchy forms an anchor of sorts for citizens where a revolving whirl of politicians [ of suspect persuasion] are the ones garnering the press. I can very well see how Fascism would have been attractive in the 20's and 30's.

I think the problem /solution is to realise humans feel better for a cause or at least to have a focus. A war is one method, the olympics a marginally cheaper option. In both cases there is a length of time issue, cost, and bodies wrecked by the experience.

The space race was probably a good one. Global warming/food shortage should be another. If I were to give soft western civilisation a cause that would be reducing energy consumption - and it is not too difficult a war to win is suitably lengthy and more practical use than the space race.. If you are too smart to believe in a God that saves all then this would be very satisfying religion replacement.

[Magpie_Oz]

A homogeneous mindset (not convinced of that assumption in the first place) is NOT fascism.

Not in itself but it is a barrier to opposition within the political system and giving political voice to s single stream of the population.

Yes, yes, I know what fascism means. But that term has political meaning. What your job was before you voted has none.

But in SST it does.

.... it is still a democratic system that allows for hippies to gain the reigns.

Only if they undertake Federal Service which is actually one of the stated aims of the system, not allowing undesirables in power, given that it came about as a solution to previous civil unrest.

Obeying a democratically elected CiC in accordance to the constitution is not all that different from swearing allegiance to the dictator Adolf Hitler, according to you? If Obama only had served in the military, he'd be indistinguishable from Mussolini? On what basis you make that monumental leap?!

What has Obama got to do with it? It is you who are leaping, the oaths I was comparing are in relation to the SST CiC which as we see has not been democratically elected as only one sector of society is entitled to vote for him, and can also have that vote taken away.

Adolph Hitler was democratically elected and he then suspended the democratic process. AH was also the commander in chief. The only real difference is that the German military swore allegiance to a person, rather than a position and subtle but important difference.

Oh? I can just drop by come election time and vote? No, I must be a citizen of Australia. That tends to put one in the way of paying taxes. And if one refuse to pay taxes, I assume one eventually gets jailed. Much voting in jail?

Yes you have to be a citizen to vote in an Australian election, your tax status is irrelevant, you don't have to pay tax to vote. You only lose your right to vote if you are in prison serving a sentence of more than 3 years.

Undercurrent. That is what it was boils down to for you, doesn't it? Not actual observed facts, but what makes you feel a bit icky in your underbelly.

Yes as stated there is an undercurrent of fascism in the book SST.

The evidence seems mostly based on the idea that you can't have military men anywhere near a democracy. A wafer thin notion.

No it is based on the notion that is central to the book in that suffrage is conditional upon Federal Service, rather than a basic democratic right.

Except of course veterans aren't getting any rights. They can claim none, zilch, zero. It is entirely done at the discretion of a democratically elected DA, who can put him in this rehabilitation system that is batting well above average. It is not like vets are getting away with murder here.

God forbid we want criminals to reform at the stated 100% rate. Where would society be? Other then cheering in the streets at this unparalleled success of the legal system.

Is the targeted rehabilitation drunks or junkies fascism to you too? No? So it is soldiers you have problem with.

No you are again miles of track. Did you read the bit where I said that veterans should receive the aid and support they need BEFORE they end up in the justice system?

By the by, I am a soldier (retired) near on 20 years in fact.

It is about as slippery a slope as building highways leads to gassing jews.

Only if those Jews are not allowed to drive on those highways.