Radios and Calling in Mortar Fire

[LukeFF]

I was playing on the American side in the "A Delaying Action" scenario and setting up my mortar units. With my weapons section, I figured it would be best to keep the HQ section with the two MG teams and leave the HQ Support section with the mortar teams, since the HQ Support team had a radio. However, when I checked to see if my forward observer could call in mortar fire, the mortar teams were listed as being "Out of Contact."

Is it intended to be that way? That HQ Support team had a radio and was part of the weapons section (confirmed by double-clicking on it), and it was positioned right next to the two mortar teams.

[Stitch]

This has happened to me. Unfortunately, the only way I found to get things to work was to put the actual HQ next to them. I, like yourself, had reasonably assumed that the HQ support was to free up the HQ so that the HQ could be more mobile.

Right now, I'm trying to use the HQ support to get the Bino only HQs/FOs a way to call back home.

[Waaarg]

The HQ support team is not in the C2 chain, the HQ is. I have not seen it happen, but remember someone saying that the XO will become the HQ if the actual HQ gets destroyed. I'm not sure if XO and HQ support team work the same way though.

I assume when looking at the mortars, they are deployed and out of C2. Once they are in C2, and are deployed, you should be able to call in strikes.

[Rafter11]

I ran into the same problem the HQ support had a radio, but my forward HQs were out of contact with the mortars. My solution was to move the jeep with a radio next to the mortars and things worked.

[LukeFF]

I assume when looking at the mortars, they are deployed and out of C2. Once they are in C2, and are deployed, you should be able to call in strikes.

I tried that, but once the weapons HQ is out of sight of the mortar teams, the mortar teams are shown to be "out of contact," even with the HQ Support team right next to them.

It sure would be nice to use the HQ Support team as a radio link for the mortars, because as of right now the former is just an "extra set of bodies." They can't command machine gun teams, either, and that radio they carry isn't doing a lot of good right now.

[user38]

I think you might find your answer in the following post:

Hi, everybody.

First-time-poster here, so a brief introduction of myself for a start:

I am from Germany (the "Ruhr-pocket-area", according to grog-geography) and have been into the series since CMBO. I omitted CMSF and now returned to see the glory of CMx2 in my favourite wargaming-era.

I've become an enthusiastic reader and "refresh-monkey" of this forum since I heard of the nearing release of Battle for Normany, as late as March this year.

I decided to end my lurking days at the prospect of even making the tiniest of contributions on the way to perfection for a game I already grew very fond of.

My observations are based on the full-game version of the demo-scenario "Closing the pocket" (downloaded from the Repository).

I was trying to find a decent defensive layout for the US and encountered some problems in placing my mortar teams. I got curious and played around a bit in setup-phase on both sides.

I did learn quite a few things about how the game handles C2 and spotting for onboard artillery and now want to share my lessons learned.

In the process I also encountered some rather strange aspects of the game mechanics, which are by no means gamebreaking, but kind of inconsistent and maybe worthwhile looking into them.

For further reference, here are the german units I did most of the testing with and will use in examples later on:

CoC-Level 1 - 3. Kompanie HQ (CHQ)

CoC-Level 2 - 3. Kompanie / 4. Zug HQ (PHQ)

CoC-Level 3 - 3. Kompanie / 4. Zug / 3rd Section HQ (SHQ)

CoC-Level 4 - 3. Kompanie / 4. Zug / 3rd Section / 1st Squad / A Team - Medium Mortar (MS-A)

CoC Level 4 - 3. Kompanie / 4. Zug / 3rd Section / 1st Squad / B Team - Mortar Ammo Bearer (MS-

C2-Basics

The C2 network can be visualized as a tree. In the example above, CHQ is the trunk, PHQ is a branch, SHQ is a twig and MS-A and MS-B are leaves.

There is only one way from any given "leave" to the "trunk"; known as the chain of command.

A unit can establish C2 contact only with a superior HQ within its own specific chain of command.

Missing links can be compensated by HQ units higher up in the same chain of command.

Means of C2-Contact

• Voice C2 contact between HQs and subordinate units can be established up to 50m, regardless of LOS.
  
• Voice C2 contact between HQs and subordinate units cannot be established if one of them is inside a vehicle.
  
• Close C2 visual contact between HQs and subordinate units can be established up to 100m, LOS provided.
  
• Distant visual C2 contact can only be established between HQs and DIRECTLY subordinate units (next in the chain of command) and seems to be limited only by LOS.
  
• Radio C2 contact between HQs and subordinate units seems not to be limited at all; integral radios or radio equipped vehicles provided.
  

Artillery Spotting - Special Rules

• SR-1: Any HQ or FO unit is able to call in indirect fire from any onboard artillery unit inside a radius of 50m, regardless of LOS or C2 contact.
  
• SR-2: Any operational, radio equipped vehicle, whether it is dismounted or occupied, in a radius up to 20m to an onboard artillery unit will enable all HQ or FO units to call in indirect fire from that artillery unit, regardless of LOS or C2 contact.
  
• SR-3: No call for indirect fire will be processed by means of distant visual contact (LOS, +100m), even though it is a viable C2 link.
  

Additional Test Results

• Setup 1: SHQ without integral radio and with no active C2 link is able to call for indirect fire in an radius up to 50M from MS-A.
  
• Setup 2: SHQ inside a radio equipped vehicle is able to call for indirect fire in an radius up to 100M from MS-A (MS-A is available for the whole C2 network).
  
• Setup 3: SHQ without integral radio but in voice (up to 50m) or close visual C2 contact (up to 100m) to PHQ is able to call for indirect fire as long as in close visual C2 contact (up to 100M) to MS-A (MS-A is available for the whole C2 network).
  
• Setup 4: SHQ without integral radio but in voice (up to 50m) or close visual C2 contact (up to 100m) to CHQ is able to call for indirect fire as long as in close visual C2 contact (up to 100M) to MS-A (MS-A is available for the whole C2 network).
  
• Setup 5: PHQ is able to call for indirect fire as long as in close visual C2 contact (up to 100M) to MS-A AND SHQ is integrated in the C2 network by any means except distant visual contact (MS-A is available for the whole C2 network).
  
• Setup 6: CHQ is able to call for indirect fire as long as in close visual C2 contact (up to 100M) to MS-A AND SHQ is integrated in the C2 network by any means except distant visual contact (MS-A is available for the whole C2 network).
  
• Setup 7: When distant visual C2 contact (LOS, +100m) is established between SHQ and MS-A (directly superior), neither SHQ nor any higher HQ will be able to call for indirect fire from MS-A (see SR-3), except SR-1 or SR-2 are in effect.
  

Test Summary: As long as C2 contact between all links is established by any means except distant visual contact, all onboard artillery units within that chain of command will be available to every HQ or FO unit on the map.

Possible room for improvement - Inconsistencies (imho)

• Offboard artillery is available to all FO and HQ units regardless of their C2 status.
  
• When SR-2 is in effect, onboard artillery is available to all FO and HQ units regardless of their C2 status.
  
• HQ or FO units out of C2 contact still have access to onboard artillery which is part of another, unbroken chain of command.
  
• The directly superior HQ of an onboard artillery unit, which has no further C2 contact, can only spot for his subordinate unit within a radius of 50m. The moment it establishes C2 contact, this radius is doubled to 100m (Setup 1, 3, 4.)
  
• SR-3 can prohibit indirect fire which would otherwise be legit (Setup 7).
  

Other lessons learned during testing

• There is a short delay in the visual represantation of newly established C2 links (gave me some WTF-moments before I realized that).
  
• Clicking on the icons for the C2 links will bring up the directly superior HQ, even though the represented C2 contact might have been established with an HQ higher up in the chain of command.
  
• Clicking on the unit names in the chain of command (part of the unit info panel) or in the unit/formation report (part of the team info panel for HQs) will bring up that unit or the formations HQ.
  
• While in the support roster, any selected onboard artillery unit and the designated spotter will have their unit icons highlighted and blinking for easy identification.
  

Sorry for the wall of text (I dropped the idea of adding images), but it is a rather complex matter. Hope it will be of any worth for the greater good. Any feedback or question is highly welcome.

Best regards,

RT.

[Waaarg]

That is a great post that I completely missed. Much gracias for posting it.

Man what a quality post for someone new to the forums.

[LukeFF]

SR-2: Any operational, radio equipped vehicle, whether it is dismounted or occupied, in a radius up to 20m to an onboard artillery unit will enable all HQ or FO units to call in indirect fire from that artillery unit, regardless of LOS or C2 contact.

See, this is where I have an issue. Under current conditions, an unoccupied radio-equipped jeep can provide radio contact to on-board mortar units, yet an HQ Support unit, which is outfitted with a radio and part of the weapons platoon, cannot provide that same contact.

This is just not realistic. A Weapons HQ Support unit, equipped with a radio and commanded by an NCO, should be fully capable of providing radio contact to on-board mortar units. Empty radio-equipped vehicles, on the other hand, should not.

[sonar]

LukeFF...Agreed.

[jnt62006]

OK, so my guess is that Battlefront wanted one of the HQ sections (HQ, HQ support unit) to act as a Fire Direction Center (FDC) which every indirect fire elment on the battlefield requires. (These are the guys who answer the radio, plot the targets, and send the firing data to the guns.)

My guess is this is supposed to be the support element mounted on the Jeep. The PL (HQ) can then either go with the MGs or act as an FO.

Can someone with some real knowledge of the game design confirm/deny this assumption?

[MengJiao]

See, this is where I have an issue. Under current conditions, an unoccupied radio-equipped jeep can provide radio contact to on-board mortar units, yet an HQ Support unit, which is outfitted with a radio and part of the weapons platoon, cannot provide that same contact.

This is just not realistic. A Weapons HQ Support unit, equipped with a radio and commanded by an NCO, should be fully capable of providing radio contact to on-board mortar units. Empty radio-equipped vehicles, on the other hand, should not.

I understand the problem with the HQ support unit. It seems the player should be free to have it do the job.

I don't understand what's wrong with an empty jeep with a radio doing the job. For all the game knows, you put that jeep-with-radio there for a reason.

[LukeFF]

I don't understand what's wrong with an empty jeep with a radio doing the job. For all the game knows, you put that jeep-with-radio there for a reason.

A jeep with a radio doesn't do anyone any good if no one is in the vehicle and listening to it. I could accept that an empty vehicle provides radio contact to a mortar unit on the specific condition that it is in a square directly adjacent to the mortar crew (or about 10 meters max distance); otherwise, an empty radio-equipped vehicle should not be providing C2 capability.

I dunno what it's called in other militaries, but in the U.S. Army, they have a detail called "radio watch." That person's job is to monitor the radio and answer any messages received on it. I'm certain that's something they did back in the 40s.