Artillery vs infantry in buildings

[Orange]

Is it safe to hole up in buidlings when under an artillery barrage? Does it depend on the size of the barrage (ie, different for 81mm, 105's, etc.)? I'm sure it is, I'm just wondering if someone could explain what I could expect from the different calibers. Is it a waste of time to attack enemy units in buildings with artillery? Thanks for the advice.

Also, I'm asking about indirect fire, off-board or otherwise.

[ January 12, 2004, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: Orange ]

[Little Pete]

Well im hardly a CM veteran but i know that the really heavy artillery rounds will kill or panic troops even in heavy buildings (plus a direct hit will almost definitely level the building).As far as mortar damage when in buildings im not sure.

my advice would be to make a scenario with troops in buildings and shell them with different calibre arty to see what happens.

[Colonel J Lee]

Hey Orange,

I'm a new guy but I have to tell you what happened to me in this regard.

I was being slowed by a German MG team in the 2nd story of a heavy building in the Aachen scenario. I rolled up a "Priest" self-propelled 105mm. In three turns (6 rounds of fire, about) I set the building in flames; the MG crew crawled out and the died in the edge of the street. Seconds later the buidling was completely engulfed in flame. So, it seems like it is a good use of artillery (at least self-propelled firing directly). It was a joy to see that building go up in flames like that.

[Omi]

I think buildings are safe defense against small/medium caliber off map artillery.

[Mr. Tittles]

While slightly off topic, the collapse of a building can cause casualties as well

The game models building damage in stages. I guess just shooting at same sized buildings, with different weapons/calibers could give insight into 'how long this weapon makes this happen'. Ie. Get a feel for what a 75mm IG can do to a certain building types and then play around.

The game may not model this but different fillings in the same shell would cause different damage. An example would be a 75mm HE shell with Amatol or TNT.

mechanisms for building damage could be:

1. point burst (on the exterior wall surface)

2. wall burst (in the wall material)

3. Interior blast

4. Fragmentation size

5. Blast effects from HE

6. Building parameters (material type, strength, previous damage, interior wall density, etc)

I am not sure is damage is tracked by building entity or by 'tile'. meaning is damge tracked by just the tile building entity or does being larger (and the support that might mean) factor in.

[ January 12, 2004, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Orange]

Good information so far but... Maybe I should have named the topic something different.

Atrillery versus infantry in buildings.

That's what I'm really after. Can I laugh at the 60 and 81mm mortars while I'm in a light bldg? How about 105 or 150mm arty while I'm in a heavy building? That is the specific information I'm looking for. Oh, and I'm talking about non-direct fire. I've seen what direct HE fire can do.

[Mr. Tittles]

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=009028;p=6

you might check the last page. theres a link to mortar fire analysis. even today, light mortars are not that deadly to pers with overhead cover.

[Carl F]

My experience shows that there is a reduction in effect from indirect fire weapons (mortars and off-board artillery) vs infantry in buildings as compared to open ground. While there is a risk that a building may collapse around you while under heavy offboard artillery attack, you're most certainly going to be worse off in the open if the building doesn't collapse.

Carl

[YankeeDog]

All buildings provide fairly decent cover from artillery barrages so long as they remain standing. Heavy Buildings are obviously better, but light buildings are better than trying to weather the barrage in the open ground outside (or even scattered trees - watch out for those treebursts!), so long as the barrage isn't heavy enough to knock the building down. Units generally take heavy casualties if they are inside a building when it collapses.

The question you need to be asking, then, is how likely it is that a barrage will actually damage a building enough to knock it down. Obviously, size of incoming shell matters, but other factors like proximity of the building to the barrage's centerpoint, and density of the barrage (out of LOS barrages and "Target Wide" barrages distribute over a much wider area) also matter. Also remember that infantry units will usually try to abandon a heavily damaged building (a "**" building) before it collapses on their own. This can sometimes have disasterous effects if they run out into the street during an ongoing barrage.

Given all the factors noted above, there are no hard and fast rules here, but here are some general guidelines based on my play experience.

In general, most buildings provide good protection 81mm/3in. mortar-sized stuff. I would only worry about small, light buildings that are close to the center of the barrage, or maybe a large, light building that is sitting on the centerpoint. I have seen an 81mm barrage knock down small, heavy buildings, but it takes a lot of shells, and if my opponent is willing to expend that many shells to get at the 1-2 units I have hiding in a building like that, then I will generally let him and congratulate myself on convincing him to expend so many shells on such a minor target.

Move up to the 105mm range, and I would try to stay out of small, light buildings unless they are on the periphery of the barrage, but I might still use them if there really is not other alternative (remember, units in the open under a barrage will break for the nearest cover whether you tell them to or not!). Large, light buildings also start to become a less attactive place to hang out, but they're still OK if they're not right under the centerpoint. Small, heavy buildings are also OK, though they can be also be trouble if right under the center (in general, the centerpoint of a barrage is a crappy place to be. . .). Large Heavy Buildings are still great and will usually require multiple turns to knock down with this size shell.

Move up again to the 150mm-sized stuff, and you can be in trouble no matter what sized building you're in. Large, Heavy Buildings can still take a few direct hits, so they're OK if they're not right under the center of the barrage, but even they are likely to go down after a few Salvos if they're actually sitting on the target point.

240mm+ sized stuff can knock down large, heavy buildings in 2 hits or less. There really is no defense against this type of stuff. I still think you're better off in a building than out in the open, though. The one good thing (from the receiver's standpoint) about 240mm+ barrages is that there is usually a fairly long delay between salvos, so if the building you are in survives one salvo, you can make a break for it at the beginning of the next turn and usually get far enough away to be relatively safe.

Note that once a buliding is knocked down, the remaining rubble makes GREAT cover against artillery.

Note also that you dramatically improve the cover buildings provide from Arty fire by placing your units in the center of the building, and on the first floor only. Avoid corners at all costs.

Cheers,

YD

[Mr. Tittles]

Amatol might actually be better at building demolition than HE filled shells now that I think about it.

[Code13]

It may also depend on the intensity of the barrage.

I once forced a squad of german infanty to abandone a light building they were holed up in with nothing but 2" motars.

The building was never looking like falling down but the amount of accurate (they had LOS) fire that was going in must have just rattled them too much.

[Orange]

Followup to my original post: I had a nice barrage of 105's falling in a current (near ending) game. It seemed like they were doing some damage (we'll have to ask my opponent, I know he checks the boards). Other than some men banged up here and there the barrage caught a large building on fire. A squad of GI's and what looked like a platoon HQ unit were inside. They exited the building towards my troops who blasted away at them. Seemingly confused those poor GI's tried to take cover, ran towards the burning building then back towards my troops a few times. As more of the 105's fell near they finally got the right idea and bolted in the right direction, away from my troops to some cover.

Something I've learned is that such ordinance takes several minutes to arrive. That's fine. It's the adjusting fire that got me a little confused. If your FO can see the area he wants to adjust to, it tells you if it's adjusting fire otherwise you have to start the clock again. Ok, that's fine. Made the mistake of adjusting too far and had to start the clock again. Note: It doesn't allow you to return to your original fire mission once you click somewhere else so be careful. The big problem is adjusting to an area that the FO doesn't see. There is no blue line that says "adjusting fire." You kinda have to guess if it'd be in the adjusting fire range. IF you're right it won't mess up your time. If you choose to adjust too far, you start the clock again. Any way around this?