Rubber Javelin

[VonWebb]

*****I have a save of this though not sure it'll repeat the behavior.

I was on George Ms "Going to Town" and i had very strange Javelin Behavior. It took 5 Javelins to kill one BMP. The First went off map. The second missed (the BMP was nowhere near the edge of the map) I swore and sent the javelin team to acquire 2 more Javelins. The next one didn't kill, in FACT the first of the Pair hit and BOUNCED off upwards into the stratosphere (at this point i saved game.) Targeted one more and it missed. I acquired ONE more went back to my small hilltop and finally killed the BMP.

Oiy. I've played this game so many times and have never seen anything near this. The occasional dud shot, ok but...

[cabal23]

That is the nuttiest thing since soldiers running through walls or avoiding huge holes in walls and running around a building to use the front door. Sometimes weird stuff happens, but never enough to ruin my experience. I too have had multiple Javelins fly off screen or hit seemingly lightly armored vehicles and do nothing. Chalk it up to a bad batch of Javelins, most likely made in China or Mexico.

[Sgt Joch]

VonWebb, that is an extreme example. I have seen enemy AFVs require up to 3 Javelins to be killed, although it is often one shot-one kill as we know.

It is also difficult to determine if there is an issue. In firing range tests under ideal conditions, you can achieve 95+% PK with the game. This matches up quite nicely with the published data which shows a 95% probability of kill with each shot.

For some reason however, when playing actual scenarios, the javelins are sometimes not as effective as in our "tests". Javelins will not acquire and miss the target or sometimes an AFV may require 2-3 missiles to be destroyed. Part of this latter behavior may be explained when the missile hits the AFV at an odd angle and much of its energy is wasted. Charles had offered that explanation at one point and had tweaked the behavior to lessen this problem. Part of the issue may also be chalked up to FOW since the enemy AFV you hit and which appears undamaged may in fact be dead.

Discounting the FOW issue, your effective PK may in fact only be 75-85%, again hard to accurately estimate since this behavior does not often appear in "Firing Tests" type scenarios. Please note however that even with this lower effectiveness, the Javelin is still by far the deadliest ATGM in game.

At that point, the issue becomes whether this is a real problem. For some people it is, since they want to see the published 95% PK under all circumstances. In my case, I like to see it as the Javelin performing according to real battlefield conditions. I am personally wary about the published data since I operate on the principle that all militaries have an interest in overstating the effectiveness of their weapon systems. It makes sense that some missiles will not lock, will not track, will be duds, etc.

[Wengart]

The next one didn't kill, in FACT the first of the Pair hit and BOUNCED off upwards into the stratosphere (at this point i saved game.)

It seems to me that the real issue isn't PK of the Jav, but the fact that a Javelin apparently hit a target but instead of exploding bounced off of it.

[cool breeze]

A javelin bouncing into the stratosphere is clearly whack but would a dud(nonexploding) javelin have enough KE to puncture a BMP? While I imagine most ATGMs would smash the heck out of one it seems to me that a javalin would do less. my reasoning is 1) that the javalin has a smaller warhead since thinner armour is its target, and 2) that the final turn down to hit the top of the target should waste much of its thrust, first its going mostly straight with some up then it turns and dives down. Im thinking it wouldnt fall far enough to gain much KE and that the shortness of the down thurst phase should mean it wont be flying down that hard. plus that big ol shaped charge domey thing on the end, being hollow, might crush pretty hard.

Any way thats what I was thinking about. Anyone who knows anything wanna let me know if a top attack dud hit with a javalin on a BMP ought to break it? Anyone got any thoughts on it?

Thanks!

[souldierz]

I also experienced having a bad batch of Javelins a few times.The crew wouldn't have been able to hit the Swiss Alps if they were 500 meters from it:), missiles were constantly flying and who knows where they landed, Probably in Turkey somewhere.Others would fail quickly and land danger close to the men that shot it.I saw 3 Jav missiles in a row fail and leave big craters just in front the troops.:eek:

I also experienced some tough vehicles that seemed to have withstood some impacts from the Javelins, but i have yet to see a Javelin missile bounce or get deflected away.That's kinda cool despite the fact the danger is still active.

[afreu]

Just had a similiar experience with a British Javelin section wasting their whole supply of four missiles on a single BMP ~500m away without even hitting it.

They were highest quality troops, with excellent equipment, though a bit tired and it was dark.

[Sgt Joch]

Afreu, which scenario?

warning******"UK Outmaneuvered" spoilers below**********

I did a very quick test with "UK outmaneuvered" RT in 1.21 last night to see if something might have cropped up. A british javelin team on top of a two story building w. 4 Javs took out 4 enemy tanks (2x T-62s, 2x T-72s) in less than 5 mins, each one shot, one kill. Admittedly, it was under ideal conditions: clear day, open map, clear LOS, unsuppressed Jav team (veteran I believe), motionless AFVs.

******spoilers ended********************************

Again, this is not to imply there is not an issue, but we need to know more about the conditions (and a save game if someone has it) so we can see if the event falls within normal parameters or if there is a problem.

Incidentally, I am involved in a red v red PBEM game where a AT-14 nest (numbers still unknown) has taken out 6 of my tanks and 2 BMPs and survived an artillery strike so far....:mad:..... I wish those missiles were less effective...

[afreu]

It was during a playtest of one of my own scenarios.

[cameron2645]

i had almost the same thing happened i had a brit javilian team and the missle shot out and it didnt go up it went strait and well it hit a t-90 and bounced off and hit a building...

[Sgt Joch]

If someone could submit a save game of the javelins bouncing off, we could try to determine what is happening.