No, oil, no move

[Kelly's Heros]

Sorry, many of you know this, but for those of you like me who found out the hard way, here it is.

If you run out of oil your mechanical units won't work anymore.

This brings up the issue of supply duration for ships, tanks etc. The game must assume that units are in supply and therefore are able to move whatever distances are necessary, but what if that supply is cutoff or the resource runs out.

Seems like units should have enough fuel to get back to base or a certain number of turns before they run out of fuel. We should also be notified of this somehow. Unfortunately, since I wasn't aware of this, I reported it as a bug when in fact it was a game feature.

Just a thought Brit, if you run out of a resource that impacts units, a pop up message would definitely keep users from reporting it as a problem. :-)

Counting down to Christmas for my copy.

[Makris1821]

Just a thought Brit, if you run out of a resource that impacts units, a pop up message would definitely keep users from reporting it as a problem. :-)

The interface already give you warnings IIRC. The ribbon at the top with the resources will show the resource in red when you are about to run out, and the side bar messages give you a warning a few turns before a resource runs out.

[Kelly's Heros]

Well, not quite, I have a saved game with this exact scenario and yes, the oil resource is red, but my stuck ship provides no indication of why it won't move, which is why I reported it as a bug. So, I'm just saying, at little more information is useful once you run out of oil. Also, since the UI let's you pick a destination, then it implies that you can still move. An easy fix would be to not let the user select a destination for units that are not able to move. I think this is why it is confusing. Also, remove any destination that may have been selected because they aren't going anywhere.

It may be in the docs somewhere, but hey, most of us don't read the docs and I go by the principal of least astonishment (POLA).

"when two elements of an interface conflict, or are ambiguous, the behaviour should be that which will least surprise the human user at the time the conflict arises." - wikipedia

In this case a stuck unit with no indication of why it's stuck is confusing and looks like a bug.

Just my perspective and if I'm missing something in the UI, please feel free to point it out to me. :-) However, if I am, it's probably not very intuitive because I looked around for it - either that or I'm blind which may also be the case. My mother always told me I looked with my eyes closed :-)

[N3rull]

IIRC the tutorial mentiones that lack of Oil hampers your mechanical units' movement.

It's also in Game Manual -> Basic Game Concepts -> Resources -> Oil.

Either way, once you know this, you'll know that a fat red field behind your resource counter means trouble.

As for your suggestion of deleting orders that would not be handled due to lack of oil - it would make matters much worse.

Think about it:

1. You see a red Oil counter. You go to open market, buy oil, voila. All your units can move again. If your suggestion passed, you'd have to reissue all orders again, because they would have been deleted as invalid as soon as the game noticed that you won't have enuff Oil.

2. You have 112 Oil and your indicator says that your dozens of units will consume 109.8 until next turn, so no red indication yet. You click next turn, but sadly, a group of your tanks was set on "Attack All Enemies" and entered a pursuit after an enemy unit that was passing by, using up 2.3 Oil. So, right before the turn ended, your Oil counter hit zero and stopped all your units in their tracks, delaying their movement by some minimal amount of time. On the next turn you notice the problem, buy the Oil and your units are on their way. If your suggestion passed, you'd have to reissue orders for dozens of units yet again.

IT WOULD BE THE ULTIMATE, EPIC PAIN IN THE ....

Seriously - just remember the simple rule of thumb "RESOURCE INDICATOR RED === NOT GOOD" and you'll be fine.

PS. A COMPLEX game like EOS can NOT be made so that a player always has it printed in front of his eyes that something's going on. You'd have to close 100 pop-ups every turn.

[Kelly's Heros]

Good points N3rull, but how about this. If you select a unit that is out of oil, it tells you, unit cannot move it is out of fuel (oil, whatever). I guess the preset destinations are ok, but where I ran into trouble is when I was trying to change a destination for a unit that could not move and thats the POLA I was talking about. Here you are expecting a unit to do something and it's stuck.

Yes, you knew and now I know what the red bar means, but others won't and I've seen other posts on this board about this issue, so I know it is causing some concerns.

Anyway, my first assumption was that vehicles had enough of a supply that red oil did not immediately affect them, so I was a little astonished when I found out that my stuck ship did not have enough fuel to get to port. That to me is a different issue than running out of the oil resource. To me the oil resource represents a stock pile that is used for refueling and that you can't refuel when you need to because the stockpile is empty.

So, you can see the disconnect between a ship that has fuel and a stockpile. Be that as it may, I still prescribe that if a unit is immovable for whatever reason, the user should be told that for the specific unit he/she is trying to move, that it is immobile. That meets the POLA criteria in my mind. :-)

Thanks for your feedback N3rull. I do agree that cancelling the orders would be problematic and painful. I wasn't thinking about large quantities of units facing this problem, but more than likely that is a very real situation. So, I hereby retract my request to cancel pending orders for movement, but solicit my request for some kind of notification when a "selected unit" is unable to move. :-)

Take it or leave it Brit, it just might keep you from having to answer movement bug questions, or not. I'm not sure how many people actually run out of oil. This is the first time it happened to me. :-)

[Brit]

Anyway, my first assumption was that vehicles had enough of a supply that red oil did not immediately affect them, so I was a little astonished when I found out that my stuck ship did not have enough fuel to get to port. That to me is a different issue than running out of the oil resource. To me the oil resource represents a stock pile that is used for refueling and that you can't refuel when you need to because the stockpile is empty.

So, you can see the disconnect between a ship that has fuel and a stockpile. Be that as it may, I still prescribe that if a unit is immovable for whatever reason, the user should be told that for the specific unit he/she is trying to move, that it is immobile. That meets the POLA criteria in my mind. :-)

True. Although ships don't ever have to return to port. Which would mean that they could continue sailing around the map regardless of any national oil shortages. I suppose I could give warning messages if players try to assign orders to units and the movement would drop oil reserves below zero. The other thing I could do is give a warning popup when someone tries to submit their orders - although, that's a little less convenient because it would suggest that the player should go back and start canceling orders.

Thanks for your feedback N3rull. I do agree that cancelling the orders would be problematic and painful. I wasn't thinking about large quantities of units facing this problem' date=' but more than likely that is a very real situation. So, I hereby retract my request to cancel pending orders for movement, but solicit my request for some kind of notification when a "selected unit" is unable to move. :-)[/quote']

(nod)

[Kelly's Heros]

thanks for reading my diatribe Brit :-) I know you've got your hands full of questions and suggestions, so it means a lot you took the time. Thanks.

[N3rull]

So' date=' I hereby retract my request to cancel pending orders for movement, but solicit my request for some kind of notification when a "selected unit" is unable to move. :-)[/quote']

Have something like that played when a player tries to order a unit when out of oil:

"What, you want me to PUSH that tin can for you? Think again, boss."

[Brit]

The new version attaches a warning to the cursor when you're low on oil, and also a warning message if you're going to run out of oil and you try to submit your turn.

[Kelly's Heros]

LOL N3rull. I still think it's a good idea :-)

[Kelly's Heros]

Actually, that works perfect Brit. It will be difficult for players to miss that one :-) I tried it on my saved game with the stuck ship. No more question about what is going on because it applies to only the units that are affected.

Very nice.