What if's and how to do them

[Atago]

Two "what if" situations: One, what if Winston Churchill were ousted as PM and Lord Halifax replaces him - this event due to perceived poor handling to the war and happening about at the fall of France. I'd want the decision to be something like if the Dunkirk evacuation were botched or if the Germans manage to KO France earlier than historical.

I'd need a hostile country to go back to Neutral - and then have scripts for it to go back to hostile depending on German mischief.

Second "what if". Hitler isn't so nuts, and does not cause the people of Ukraine and what not to hate the invading Germans. In many instances areas of the western Soviet union initial welcomed the Germans, and only later became hostile as the SS came wandering in doing bad things.

Best way to do this? Make Ukraine (if not others) as separate countries that can join the Germans as allies?

RN invasion of Norway? Had the Germans not gone in when they did, the British would likely have invaded Norway. I've not seen this ever happen yet, would be an interesting option & would potentially screw up the German supply line to Sweden.

Finally 3 way war. France and England had some plans to bomb the Soviets in 1939, 40. Can the Soviets potentially be at war with both Germany AND the Allies - not being allied with either?

The potential for this game is amazing, just figuring out how to DO it all is hard!

[thetwo]

I am responding to you Atago, so you don't think you are being ignored.

The degree of control of events you are asking for is a little too "fine" for the game engine, is my guess. I have only designed one mod and it was not as in-depth as the real pro's can do. My contributions are as a historian.

Taking countries back and forth isn't possible once they are activated. They either are not active or are. If I am wrong, someone will surely correct me, but I think that is correct.

Yes the engine is great. I am hoping to have more time, when I am done with my current writing project. If you want to learn, check out Pzgrndr's mod or the new global mods from Nupremal and Big Al. These guys have put in the time, I wish I could give.

As to your what ifs:

Your first one would need some depth to develop it, could be interesting. My mod was a Stalin Drives West version and I did manage to get in some interesting politics, but couldn't get the level of control I wanted.

Hitler and nuts. Well, to separate him from his stupidity would be to say that he wasn't a Nazi. It's like saying the U.S. didn't have a great industrial base or Stalin didn't handicap the Soviet Union. It goes places that can add too much complexity if you catch my drift.

Norway is a great one. The real importance of Scandinavian iron ore is usually underestimated in games and by historians.

I once got into a debate with severeal "respectable academics" during which they grew quite heated. I made a comment that I thought it was possible that Churchill had deliberately extended the war in Europe, by refusing to challenge in Norway. After all, the Germans only preempted the British by 24 hours. That was all. And the French did land a brigade in Norway after the German invasion. So the Luftwaffe was not supreme.

Anyway, these guys went ballistic. I quoted Churchill, I think I can still get it right. "I did not become Prime Minister to preside over the dissollution of the British Empire." You can hear the gravelly voice rolling that one out. What it meant was that he didn't want to do anything that risked the Royal Navy.

Given the known importance of Norway's iron ore and the transhippment of Swedish ore through Norway and that the Britsh did have a plan to occupy Norway, it is still very strange that they didn't do more to contest this before the Germans could get established. The German Navy's losses were catasrophic.

As "what ifs" go, this one is on the money. If I remember right, many British war records are still classified. I would not be surprised to see some nasty memos emerge about this, if I live long enough.

Three way war, yeah that would be fun, but its not supported. Figuring out "historical" triggers would be a challenge.

[Nupremal]

I read some reports - credible I think - that say the ore was over-estimated. Can try to find them.

However, I may decide to add the Norway invasion as a possible action for the UK - probably use a global variable - however right now I am trying to get the basics to work.

Course humans might do it. Can also use subs

[Atago]

Yes I know, Hitler not "nuts" is Hitler not being Hitler. Of many alternate history ideas I've had, the Nazi's being "nice" to the people of occupied Europe is an awful stretch! On the flip side though, some pragmatic high ranking German officer could maybe have figured out that the Ukrainians may be of help and waited until later to sick the SS and Gestapo on them. Still, yes - that's stretching things I agree.

I think what I may do is create Ukraine as a separate country and remove the scorched earth policy. That way when/if it's captured the Germans get more resources.

Norway invasion by the UK - This one ideally would be a situation that sometimes happens, sometimes doesn't. Playing as the Germans you'd have some stress to push you to invade earlier or to invade at all - In recent games I've played I've just not bothered with Norway. I should be more concerned I think, but I know the AI isn't going to invade (or hasn't yet!).

I haven't yet figured out how to make the UK go from war back to neutral - don't think that's possible. I may just run one where the UK remains neutral all along just for kicks - or perhaps find a way so that it may or may not enter the war right away after the invasion of Poland.

I may also play around with having France and England declare war on the Soviets for their part in the invasion of Poland. I've often wondered why they 'just' declared war on Germany when the Soviets also invaded. What if the Soviets invaded FIRST - would they have declared war then?

Germany can still declare war on the Soviets later in '41 or whenever, nothing stops that I suppose. I need to figure out how to move the USSR over into the Axis side - Even in current fiddling around I still have the USSR flag over on the allies side even though I have the Soviets firmly in the Axis.

So many things to play with!!! I'm hoping to make a more random campaign where I'm never quite sure what's gonna happen. Still very much learning though (and having fun).

[Nupremal]

well PDE has the Allies vs USSR - so you probably can borrow some graphics or interfaces from the scenarios there

[thetwo]

Atago,

I have two suggestions for you, that might increase your fun value from what you've already mentioned.

For your Britain and France versus the Soviet Union scenario, it isn't all that much of a stretch. Consider the following. Hitler plays brinksmanship and baits the Soviets with Poland. He never invades, gives up his demands for the Polish corridor. Stalin is furious, stomps around. In the end he decides to bite of the eastern half of Poland anyway, leaving the western half as a rump-Poland, a buffer between himself and Germany. Stalin dares the British and French to act. After all their posturing, do they follow through now that the "bad guy" is Stalin and not Hitler? Any war will have to allow for Germany as as an ally, or they can't get at Stalin. Surely, the British General Staff would be warning Chamberlain that before any British force could arrive in the remains of the Polish state, the Soviets could occupy it. Then what? What happens if the Soviets invade Germany? Interesting and plausible scenario.

Concerning and kinder and gentler Nazi Party. It boggles the mind. If you are going to go that way, there are more "realities" that offer room for consideration. For example, Soviet penal battalions. These consisted mostly of "politicals" who were kept unarmed until right before assaults, at which time they were armed and pointed at the Germans. Regular Soviet troops were behind them and would shoot them if they retreated. The Germans slaughtered well over one million of these men. If, on the other hand, the Germans were to let them through their lines, then open fire on the regulars, the would get one million well-motivated, former Russian soldiers.

Another possibility, is that if you are going to postulate that the Commissar order was never issued and that the mass executions don't happen, and that you can still maintain some kind of order without them, then some communities will likely be more helpful than others. Also, there would probably be less partisan activity sabotaging rear areas.

In the Army, I once worked with the son of a former Russian soldier, not ethnic Russian, who then defected to the Germans, fought for them, then emmigrated to South America after the war. Quite a story.

There are possibilities, but the suspension of disbelief gets thick.

Have fun with it, that's what it's there for.

[geozero]

I might chime in here... when we play as Germany we are in essence taking over Hitler's role... so him being nuts is besides the point. It would be good to let the player make decisions that are ahistorical, or "what ifs" to make the game interesting in that respect. There's no point in always playing WW2 in the same way every time... attack Poland/Scandinavia/France/Africa/Balkans/Russia/wait for D-Day, etc.

[Atago]

I think the best way to simulate the "Kinder and Gentler Nazis" is to allow the Germans to build more forces than usual and to nix the scorched earth and some of the partisans as far as the eastern front. The new armies would be former Soviet block members. Cost would remain the same for all forces, as Germany would still have to supply the guns and ammo!

Germany and Italy as allies to the French and British... hmm, that would be different! Churchill would have a fit, but if Germany doesn't hit the Czekloslovakia then Chamberlain may stay as PM and Churchill could just rant on the sidelines.

Hmmmm! So many ideas to play with!