Making the buildings enterable

[SlapHappy]

The building models as currently implemented in the game are basically textured solid shapes without voids for windows and doors. While it would be easy enough to create new models which had these voids, there is obviously a lot more involved in making them interactive with troops and creating the LOS requirements for the game. Right now, even if it were possible to place a soldier inside one of the building models, he couldn't get out of it. It would be a cell.

Based on what I know about 3-D modeling (which is basically not much), there are two different ways to approach soldiers in buildings.

Firstly, you could have a free-form method which would allow troops to move freely around inside the "cavities" of the buildings, restricted only by any solid objects like interior walls and such. The problem with this method would be a more complicated LOS procedure for spotting a human entity through a window or door. Not only proximity to an opening, but angle and percentage of enemy exposed would have to be considered to be realistic in such a system. If you plan on implementing multi-story buildings, the problem becomes even more complex as you have to factor in height to target-defender relationships. How much of the sniper who is crouched at the second-floor farmhouse window can be seen? And at what angle based on the relative height and body position of the firing element? Interesting stuff. And not easy to pull off convincingly I bet.

The second, and seemingly easier method would be to define fixed "crew" positions within the building that allow you to post soldiers at particular defined areas where they can achieve spotting. In such an arrangement, of course, the only way to "hide" in the building would be to allow the troops to still achieve a prone position. Or perhaps crouch position for windows set at upper torso-head positions. One downside of this system might include artificially limiting the number of troops allowed inside the building as defined by it's number of "crewable" portals.

I think it's at least fairly likely they will take the 2nd approach to enterable buildings as it fits nicely with the current vehicle modelling system and permits the designer to simply treat the building as a more complex version of their fortification model.

[Sturmmann]

Entering buildings will be through a pay add-on more than likely.

[SlapHappy]

True. I was just speculating on how it could or probably will be done.

[scottie]

interesting thread.

Combat Mission building model used the first method, you could place units at the back of the building to get them out of the way. Didnt work too well for smaller builings however, you the squad would manually adjust itself to fit in the building and present itself as a target without your influence, was annoying.

not got a copy of TOW yet, waiting on new pc (may get PS3 for GTA4 but thats another story) ... but looking forward to it. May wait on version 2 however is i cant order online without credit card

Cheers

Scott

[SlapHappy]

I believe Squad Assault also used the first method as well with highly dubious results. Of course almost anything in that particular title was dubious.

Perhaps you could have the best of both worlds by creating additional non-exposed slots inside the larger buildings that allowed a little more flexibility.

But I'm not sure that, overall, the 2nd method isn't the best simply because of all the additional problems it rids itself of.

[Drawde79]

I definitely suspect it'll be the latter system. The first one, whilst more realistic, would be a nightmare to implement and debug, particularly from the AI and pathfinding point of view (just look at GI Combat/Squad Assault; order a squad to enter a building and half the troops, inevitably including MGs, bazookas etc., will be nowhere near a window or facing away from the enemy)

(edit: just saw SlapHappy's comment on the same subject)

[SlapHappy]

Of course, there are other ways to implement buildings for covered fire.

For instance, I've read about the tendency for Russian infantry to create firing loopholes very near the base of a building and fortify or sandbag around the loophole from the interior of the building.

For right now, there are certain collision factors which must be taken into account regarding the ability of models to achieve certain proximity near the boundaries of other models. For instance, it's not possible, currently, for infantry to crawl underneath the wagon models in the game. I believe this is one of the factors limiting infantry cover capabilities in the game. I'm not sure to what extent these collisions can be edited in the modding of the game.

[MG TOW]

Originally posted by SlapHappy:

I believe Squad Assault also used the first method as well with highly dubious results. Of course almost anything in that particular title was dubious.......

If you stuck around long enough for the 1.83 patch for SquadAsault, the buildings took an abstract approach. The coded void sections obviously did not work as correctly stated, one could never get the MG guy in the right void. So in 1.83 everyone in the building had LOS, but also had the defensive value of a building. So buildings became fox holes or same as trenches in a way.

This would work well too in TOW, single level buldings could be impassable trenches. That would work for me.

[Jeff Duquette]

Originally posted by SlapHappy:

The building models as currently implemented in the game are basically textured solid shapes without voids for windows and doors. While it would be easy enough to create new models which had these voids, there is obviously a lot more involved in making them interactive with troops and creating the LOS requirements for the game. Right now, even if it were possible to place a soldier inside one of the building models, he couldn't get out of it. It would be a cell.

Based on what I know about 3-D modeling (which is basically not much), there are two different ways to approach soldiers in buildings.

Firstly, you could have a free-form method which would allow troops to move freely around inside the "cavities" of the buildings, restricted only by any solid objects like interior walls and such. The problem with this method would be a more complicated LOS procedure for spotting a human entity through a window or door. Not only proximity to an opening, but angle and percentage of enemy exposed would have to be considered to be realistic in such a system. If you plan on implementing multi-story buildings, the problem becomes even more complex as you have to factor in height to target-defender relationships. How much of the sniper who is crouched at the second-floor farmhouse window can be seen? And at what angle based on the relative height and body position of the firing element? Interesting stuff. And not easy to pull off convincingly I bet.

The second, and seemingly easier method would be to define fixed "crew" positions within the building that allow you to post soldiers at particular defined areas where they can achieve spotting. In such an arrangement, of course, the only way to "hide" in the building would be to allow the troops to still achieve a prone position. Or perhaps crouch position for windows set at upper torso-head positions. One downside of this system might include artificially limiting the number of troops allowed inside the building as defined by it's number of "crewable" portals.

I think it's at least fairly likely they will take the 2nd approach to enterable buildings as it fits nicely with the current vehicle modelling system and permits the designer to simply treat the building as a more complex version of their fortification model.

More excellent work Slap. Thanks for sharing your findings and insights.

[MG TOW]

Yawn...

[FinnN]

They already have the basis for buildings - trenches and walls. In trenches men cluster around the firing positions - could easily be windows and doors - and can duck, etc. Walls and the floors could be modelled in the same way or by using a sheets of 'armour'. LOS and ray tracing are already in there. So all that's needed is a way for troops to move between levels and for the AI to recognise this. Abstracted stuff is already almost there with pillboxes, it just need to be changed so that the firing positions used the crew members weapon rather than the pillbox's with one pillbox per mannable location (windows etc). I think there are a number of options for them, getting the AI to deal with it is going to be the difficult thing rather than anything else - although I suppose the extra animations will be time consuming to produce.

Have fun

Finn

[SlapHappy]

Another factor in TOW is that materials are modeled in the game and their interaction with munitions. For instance, there are models for glass, wood, brick, concrete and steel (armor). So the underlying mechanics for the integrity of any model type are in place as well. The building model system is already in place, it's simply under-developed to be used in the same capacity as a vehicle.

[Robban]

and lets hope they hide better there than in bushes (just played the demo)... otherwise HE from tanks will slauhgter them in seconds. area fire in CC worked very well to inf in buildings... although no LOS on the soldiers... area fire killed and supressed INF so you could make an INFassault without getting slaughtered by grenades and small arms. I think option 2 would work great. its pretty much as in CC. the game takes care of what floor the soldiers are.