Rules for skins?

[luckyorwhat]

I get the impression that they have to be historical, but I'm not sure what this means?

Can you take an established pattern and alter the shades or colours?

Can a uniform pattern be applied to a vehicle?

Does anyone have a list of WW2 vehicle camouflage schemes?

Would a modified WW2 Russian stair-step be allowed?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y149/54919391/ss2s.jpg

[Ufiak]

here is a gallery of tanks with cammuflage form diffrent stages of war:

http://klub.chip.pl/krzemek/galeria.htm

I think that there will be only one type of cammo for country for a whole campaign, as it would be correct, then German cammo in france would be some dark blue(?) with white crosses and similiar in France.

In the same time- Polish cammo is a little mixed from few periods (before 1936/37 and after this date, in which cammo Polish units fought)

Regards!

[RMC]

It's not an FPS, what rule could there possibly be for skins? You'll get overhead icons of spotted enemy units. The actual camouflage value of the skinning of the models is irrelevant.

All my Panthers will be pink. All my tigers will have Fahrschule kennzeichen. All of my StuGs will sport ads for Persil.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by RMC:

It's not an FPS, what rule could there possibly be for skins? You'll get overhead icons of spotted enemy units. The actual camouflage value of the skinning of the models is irrelevant.

All my Panthers will be pink.

Nachmacher !

All my tigers will have Fahrschule kennzeichen. All of my StuGs will sport ads for Persil.

I think I'll do a blank white Sturmtiger and call it Weisser Riese.

p.s.: Seine Waschkraft macht ihn so ergiebig.

[THE Sabot]

****Here are two sites I find helpful. Many excellent artworks.

mythic panzers

profils

****Of course you know the shortage of color photos of axis camo schemes. There are a few late-war pics out there: exmpl:

And a small # of books: I have this one. Its mostly museums, but they do have some very rare latewar pics from Aberdeen.

Ex:Sorry no color (my scanner ancient...Blaka nd white only) on this one (in the book is color):

****And this is the crazy Jadgpanther I made from it...fresh off the assembly line, primer red with sand and gray stripes.

LJ

[luckyorwhat]

That's just it, as far as I can tell the Germans had no time to worry about camo. So there was no 'official' schemes, it was whatever people felt like painting. From what I read there was enough difficulty standardizing and distributing paint, let alone patterns.

By the way, if you've been looking for WW2 pictures you'll get a hardon from these:

[THE Sabot]

****Yes, nice Panther. Its in that book too. Its at the German Army Tank Museum. Its a Panther Ausf A outfitted to be a battalion command panzer. Be vary wary of museum schemes...this one is OK, but the great majority are WAY off base.

****Yes, experimentation with camo schemes for german vehicles is good...but you should stick to schemes relevant to whatever units and timeframes you are trying to represent.

****Exampl: Kursk/Summer1943...Most Ferdinands in schw PnzJag Abtl 654 (Noak) had a "turtle shell" scheme like this:

****So you make some skins like this:

****Some of the command Ferds were done like this:

****So you do like this:

****And so on...

****Alot of people I know clone their schemes on, but I like to paint my own. I do however, clone SS camo patterns (pea, oak, plane, palm, ect..)onto inf soldiers rather than try to draw each dot. Also there are many SScammo textures out there in color.

****Also, I sometimes clone from color photos of...German helmets. You get the metal texture, sheen, chip-off and authentic colors. I have a few photos of a few German helms which must have been sprayed during a panzer painting. They have very good tan, green and brown colors to them... original colors. I cloned most this whole Tiger from one of these helmets:

LJ

[Earl Grey]

Yet there seems to be enough evidence of factory-applied standardized patterns. Let me show you:

PzDiv 'Großdeutschland', Eastern Front 1943.

sPzAbt505, Eastern Front 1943.

PzDiv 'Müncheberg', Berlin 1945.

There also existed standing orders form the Waffenamt to aplly camouflage patterns at the factories, but in reality there just wasn't enough time to do that...

[THE Sabot]

****Sorry...those three pics, while nice looking, are an artist's rendering... paintings. The first pic, GD 1943 scheme...From everything Ive read, the GD scheme at this time was actually the new green and brown issue paint sprayed over the Tigers original dark gray. Some sources say they remained a unique greenish-gray allover without cammo spray at this time. Now thats until Aug 43, when new tigers were received. The turret numbers show this to be the A co. XO's Tiger from Sept 1943....so if you were modeling a Kursk campaign (july), this scheme and numbering system would be incorrect.

[Earl Grey]

Point taken. But I didn't say anywhere that I'm proposing a Kursk pattern. The caption just says 'Eastern Front 1943' - might be anywhere, AS WELL AS SEPTEMBER 1943.

Apart from that there is NOWHERE any proof of the real patterns or real colours. Not even on the helmet above. All colour is prone to weather and battlefield conditions. Not taking into acount how the colour was applied in the first place.

Aa far as the artist's rendering is concerned, I have to say I believe them to be as accurate as circumstances allow. Sure, the colours are not excactly those used then. But we don'T know what they looked like in reality. Even a good colour photograph just gives us hints. So, in the end, it's all up to interpretation again.

[THE Sabot]

****Im sorry...I just ment that you cant take a painting (artist's rendering) and call it gospel...color, pattern, anything...Let me see the photograph (black and white or otherwise) it was taken from.

***The other point I was trying to make was that markings, camo and numbering systems (especially on Tigers) changed frequently, due either to unit reorganization, or drawing of new tanks for whole units.

****Im still searching a round for an article I had on the paint issued to the panzer units and it's application.

****Speaking of standardization...yes at times there were factory applied schemes(Ambush is an example) but they were not really schemes as much as they were styles. Example: Back when M1A1s had factory woodland 3 color schemes (80's), Every one was identical...same pattern, same colors in the same places of the tank on all...Because the German facory schemes were painted "by hand" by humans, they share simular patterns and of course colors, but each was unique.

****Camo paint applied in the field varied widely in color also ans even the issued paint came in a paste form, to be mixed with water, turpentine, whatever...by the crew. differrent consistancy of the mixes and thinners resulted in different color shades. Also some people seemed to be more "artistic" with the spray gun than others!

LJ

[Earl Grey]

Right, there should exist photographs. Thing is, not all of them are on the web. But I think the times are gone when camouflage patterns were just made up by anyone trying to sell a good book. As far as I understand all the drawings from the book I took the pictures above are based on actual photographs - hence the captions. Though it is often enough very difficult to identify a vehicle on a picture if you don't know who excactly took it and where...

[luckyorwhat]

Let me quote another site in regards to camouflage patterns. Note how the maintenance sections were to apply the patterns according to the terrain. That's a lot of leniency.

"Late-war years

On 1943-02-18, it was ordered that all vehicles were to be painted in a base coat Dunkelgelb nach Muster (except for small equipment pieces, which were to retain the former colours). Over this, a camouflage pattern of Olivgrün (an RLM colour), Rotbraun RAL 8017 and Dunkelgelb nach Muster consisting of stripes was to be applied by the maintenance sections, according to the terrain. For this purpose, the paint was delivered as a paste, which could then be thinned with most liquids, and applied. Dunkelgelb nach Muster was later re-named Dunkelgelb RAL 7028, and Olivgrü was re-named Olivgrün RAL 6003.

On 1944-08-19, it was ordered that the tanks should be painted at the factories, in order to achieve more standardized patterns. The pattern used, called Hinterhalt-Tarnung, consisted of a base of Dunkelgelb RAL 7028, with Olivgrün RAL 6003 and Rotbraun RAL 8017 stripes. On top of this pattern were added small dots of all three paints.

In mid-September 1944, the tanks were were left in the red primer as the base coat, with only limited camouflage applied by the factories. On 1944-10-31, this order was expanded to include that both Dunkelgelb RAL 7028, Olivgrün RAL 6003 and Rotbraun RAL 8017 should be applied in limited amounts over the red primer, and that Dunkelgrau RAL 7021 could be used in stead of Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 is no Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 was available. There is no evidence that Dunkelgrau RAL 7021 was ever used, though.

On 1944-12-20, it was ordered that the base coat should be Dunkelgrün RAL 6003, with a hard-edged pattern of Rotbraun RAL 8017 and Dunkelgelb RAL 7028."

http://www.panzerworld.net/colours.html

And for colour pictures of WW2, you can't really beat;

http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/germans/big_gun

http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/germans/Q0107_panther

http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/germans/Qpz_iii_snow_color_2

http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/germans/Qr_6

http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/germans/german_tank_in_burning_field

http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/germans/aoo

http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/germans/aoh

http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/germans/amz

http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/germans/akh

http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/germans/air

http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/germans/acr

http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/germans/ack

http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/germans/abb

[luckyorwhat]

Sabot, I think I get it now. Basically you find a bit of history, and then apply it to the game. So you know there is a camo scheme, and you know basically the pattern and the colours, and you interpret it on a vehicle.

I too was thinking about the detailed 'paint by numbers' diagrams that are out there for US woodland on vehicles, for comparison.

As well, can you give more information on the factory standard patterns, like 'Ambush'?

Eargrey this site here has drawings too, but ehy explain where the picture it is based on was taken: http://www.afvnews.ca/camouflage.html I'm sorry, but the three pictures you posted can't be real, or based on real tanks, because they are all almost identical. They seem to me to be more evidence of a lazy artist, than a standardized camo pattern.

[Earl Grey]

@lucykorwhat: I don't see what you're point is. Why has a camouflage pattern to be unique to be real? Maybe the artist was lazy, but that soen't mean the above pictures aren't correct. The painting could very well have happened ina depot - where it is easier to paint all available tanks in the same patern than to use a different one on each tank.

If those pictures indeed are fake, then show me a publication where there is absolutely no doubt in whatsoever.

I know the website, but I'd like to see the photographs they base those pictures on, too. Just because a website is renowned, that doesn't mean they don't make mistakes any more. The same goes for the book I took those pictures from.

But we're here to discuss our different point of views, and German camouflage is a topic I'm especially interested in. So let's be about it!

[luckyorwhat]

Maybe 'fake' is too strong a term. What I mean is that those pictures are most likely representative of the truth, in some aspects more than others, like maybe the colours are very accurate.

For camo discussion, I found this little gem and it helps with figuring out what black and white pictures must have looked like:

[Earl Grey]

That's what I wanted to say, you just came up with the right words. The truth is out there somewhere, but it is hard to find.

I don't think the pictures are absolutely historically correct, just what you said - representative. Apart from that, it is difficult enough to see a camouflage pattern on a b/w photograph at all - most of the time the quality isn't very good or the time of day wasn't very well suited for taking pictures.

Thos above colour chips are a good resource, though we just have an approximation on what the vehicles leaving the factories should have looked like.

Example: New Vanguard 67 (Osprey Publishing) 'Pantzer Medium Tank 1942-45' states on p.46 that the Ambush pattern was painted using RAL 7028, RAL 6003 and RAL 8017 but the dots on the brown and green patches were actually 'pale-grey'. Interesting proposition, though I have to wonder if it was actually true or this is, in fact, not true.

Another source of mine (can't find it right now) states that RAL 6003 actually seemd to be too dark for the ETO, hence RAL 6002 was used in a number of cases.

Though there seems to be no hard evidence for that (apart from that one source), it illustrates one fact perfectly: The tanks were painted with what was at hand and when possible. Sometimes in the factories, often at the front lines. There's even the myth about the Green Tiger of Tunisia - though someone claims to have been the guy to actually paint the tank with green camouflage colour...

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by luckyorwhat:

I get the impression that they have to be historical, but I'm not sure what this means?

what SABOT is trying to tell you is that just because there is not ONE fixed pattern/scheme doesnt mean you have a carte blanche, you are not free to go and do whatever you please - and call it authentic (of course you are free to paint them purple with yellow splotches and green flowers for your own pleasure if you feel like it).

I could cite a whole shlew of H.Dv., Vfg. and HM instructions, rules and exceptions that had been issued, ignored, modified or revised over the pre-war and war years, but eventually it all boils down to this: your best bet is to look for a historical photograph and go from there.

which has already been touched upon in this thread.

Sabot's most valuable suggestion: --> "you should stick to schemes relevant to whatever units and timeframes you are trying to represent."

btw, I am positively impressed by The_Sabot's acumulation of knowledge in this area and his approach to the subject. No matter what one thinks about the person Sabot or his opinions, he really does need to be given credit for his approach to tank coloring.

just a few comments:

Originally posted by THE Sabot:

****Yes, nice Panther. Its in that book too. Its at the German Army Tank Museum. Its a Panther Ausf A outfitted to be a battalion command panzer. Be vary wary of museum schemes...this one is OK, but the great majority are WAY off base.

II 01 - Kommandeur II. Abteilung, to be more exact

dead on about the museum tanks, though.

Originally posted by THE Sabot:

****Speaking of standardization...yes at times there were factory applied schemes(Ambush is an example) but they were not really schemes as much as they were styles. Example: Back when M1A1s had factory woodland 3 color schemes (80's), Every one was identical...same pattern, same colors in the same places of the tank on all...

if I am not mistaken then the woodland camo and subsequently the three-color european camo while factory - applied were still painted manually, by humans. And there was variation, even if only very minor and subtle, even there.

****Camo paint applied in the field varied widely in color also ans even the issued paint came in a paste form, to be mixed with water, turpentine, whatever...by the crew. differrent consistancy of the mixes and thinners resulted in different color shades. Also some people seemed to be more "artistic" with the spray gun than others!

Tarnpasten olivgrün RAL 6003, rotbraun RAL 8017 and dunkelgelb RAL 7028. they did not have to be, but could be and usually were thinned before application. indeed they could be thinned with water or fuel. however, the water-based thinning was very impractical since it tended to wash off due to weathering.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Earl Grey:

There's even the myth about the Green Tiger of Tunisia - though someone claims to have been the guy to actually paint the tank with green camouflage colour...

already Vfg. v. 17.3.1941 (HM 41, Nr. 281) has graugrün RAL 7008 as a supplemental color for the Afrika-Anstrich, however it was revised in Vfg. v. 25.3. 1942 (HM 42 Nr. 315).

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by luckyorwhat:

Let me quote another site in regards to camouflage patterns. Note how the maintenance sections were to apply the patterns according to the terrain. That's a lot of leniency.

"Late-war years

On 1943-02-18, it was ordered that all vehicles were to be painted in a base coat Dunkelgelb nach Muster (except for small equipment pieces, which were to retain the former colours). Over this, a camouflage pattern of Olivgrün (an RLM colour), Rotbraun RAL 8017 and Dunkelgelb nach Muster consisting of stripes was to be applied by the maintenance sections, according to the terrain. For this purpose, the paint was delivered as a paste, which could then be thinned with most liquids, and applied. Dunkelgelb nach Muster was later re-named Dunkelgelb RAL 7028, and Olivgrü was re-named Olivgrün RAL 6003.

note the emphasis, your conclusion is missing that critical term: "nach Muster" means according to prescribed standard pattern

there were general camo pattern schemes handed out and the crews usually more or less painted after the issued standard. that individual platoons or companies diverted from that does not mean that this general rule did not exist.

like Sabot pointed out, since the standard regulation pattern was applied by hand, there was some variation of it, but usually you can see the same stripe or color in the same spot on various tanks in the same Hinterhalt-pattern, for example. Its a "typical" sort of thing.

which is also why your conclusion here...

Originally posted by luckyorwhat:

Eargrey this site here has drawings too, but ehy explain where the picture it is based on was taken: http://www.afvnews.ca/camouflage.html I'm sorry, but the three pictures you posted can't be real, or based on real tanks, because they are all almost identical. They seem to me to be more evidence of a lazy artist, than a standardized camo pattern.

...is wrong.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by THE Sabot:

Ex:Sorry no color (my scanner ancient...Blaka nd white only) on this one (in the book is color):

exactly what I've been talking about, except for the minor detail of this being a Jagdpanther instead of a Tiger:

you should have used the b/w parttern and called the result "Weisser Riese" or Moby Dick.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by luckyorwhat:

Sabot, I think I get it now. Basically you find a bit of history, and then apply it to the game. So you know there is a camo scheme, and you know basically the pattern and the colours, and you interpret it on a vehicle.

I too was thinking about the detailed 'paint by numbers' diagrams that are out there for US woodland on vehicles, for comparison.

As well, can you give more information on the factory standard patterns, like 'Ambush'?

well, you're not quite there yet, but you've already come a long way from your original...

Originally posted by luckyorwhat:

I'm not sure about other nations, but for the Germans there was only 1 month (in 1944) where camo's were standardized and applied at the factories.

..., congratulations.

[Earl Grey]

Seems plausible the Tiger has been painte in RAL 7008, then... though the mentioned person claims to have painted the Tiger with a Italian air force colour. Interesting...

[luckyorwhat]

Hofbauer if you start to run out of salt, just let me know. Maybe you could substitute rubbing lemon juice:)

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Earl Grey:

Seems plausible the Tiger has been painte in RAL 7008, then... though the mentioned person claims to have painted the Tiger with a Italian air force colour. Interesting...

oh, in that case...

see, Iam not familiar with the story of the "single green tiger", since I'm not into tanks that much.

but it is well known that the DAK often used the italian erbsengrün paint from their italian allies to paint the vehicles due to resupply shortages affecting the proper camo colors.

IIRC however that erbsengrün was an italian army color, not air force. it was the standard italian color muich like the germans had used dunkegrau or later dunkelgelb as the default color.

erbsengrün is a rather light and greyish green, bordering on dust colors AFAIK.