Time to lose.

[[82]11Bravo1P]

This may sound strange but I do this to get better tactically and I learn more from losing most of the time than stomping my enemy into the ground every time. Many of the battles planned, especially by the allies after 1944, were specifically designed for the axis to have no chance of winning and as few casualties as possible (European front) via overwhelming troops, supplies, etc. I would like to see a few scenarios specifically designed for the player to lose by attrition and not by better or more stuff. The ability to give your enemy a 200% advantage in men and equipment doesn't start them out in a strategically better position and can be overcome. The honor would be to see how long a player could last and how well he could get his troops to perform until killed or captured. Weather (mud, cloud cover, cold) directly affecting the troops would be great in scenarios like this. Stalingrad, or the fortress town of Metz would be the perfect example of futility for maps. I know there are a few maps from CMBO, BB, AK that give big advantages but not really the attrition and struggle over a time frame that make heroic action really heroic. Imagine starvation, frostbite, and constant pounding from the air affecting your troops as much as the attacks. Make the scenario impossible to win, but find the small victory in holding to the last man.

I know gamers hate to lose, especially to the A.I., but I like the idea of bad weather, no food, supply, and hope. Only then do you find out what your leaders and troops are really capable of.

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by [82]11Bravo1P:

The honor would be to see how long a player could last and how well he could get his troops to perform until killed or captured.

Wow! That's so, uh...stereotypically 'Germanic' of you!

I'd love to see this too! Frankly nothing, absolutely nothing is more significant than modeling inane fanaticism. Because that's where honor lies!

Perhaps a scenario where the German army is putting up a huge fight to keep the Allies from capturing a Concentration Camp before all the evidence is disposed of?

Originally posted by [82]11Bravo1P:

Stalingrad, or the fortress town of Metz would be the perfect example of futility for maps. I know there are a few maps from CMBO, BB, AK that give big advantages but not really the attrition and struggle over a time frame that make heroic action really heroic. Imagine starvation, frostbite, and constant pounding from the air affecting your troops as much as the attacks. Make the scenario impossible to win, but find the small victory in holding to the last man.

That's neither 'victory', nor 'heroic'. That's either the exigency of simple survival in the face of extermination, or the unwillingness to surrender a belief system that requires insane zealotry.

Terms like 'heroic', and 'victory' frankly, would only be applied by Nazi ideologues.

Originally posted by [82]11Bravo1P:

I know gamers hate to lose, especially to the A.I., but I like the idea of bad weather, no food, supply, and hope. Only then do you find out what your leaders and troops are really capable of.

Just like Hitler, eh?

[[82]11Bravo1P]

Of course your right. Suffering and fighting beyond all hope for a cause is stupid. Just like Valley Forge, the Alamo, Dunkirk...so that this nation shall not perish from the earth.

Be right back I need to get my drum and flowers and I will join you on the corner.

[Ivan Drago]

ROFL.

I like this guy.

Like the meat head at the gym with the American flag work-out pants, talking about how much he can bench press and how America should just KICK ASS all the time.

You're a feckin hippy if you don't agree America's divine, Jebus-given destiny is to KICK ASS!!

RIGHT ON!

I'm gonna go chug a 12 pack of Bud Light and masturbate to reruns of the superbowl, YEAH!!

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by [82]11Bravo1P:

Of course your right. Suffering and fighting beyond all hope for a cause is stupid. Just like Valley Forge, the Alamo, Dunkirk...so that this nation shall not perish from the earth.

Be right back I need to get my drum and flowers and I will join you on the corner.

Valley Forge involved no fighting, and a great many of the troops did buggger off, given the hideous conditions. The troops at the Alamo did, in fact, fight to the death. Of course, a fair chunk of them were Hispanics who were in revolt against the Colonial government. And whether Anglo or Hispanic, they were fighting for survival, not simply an ideal. If they lost, they were going to lose everything.

Dunkirk? The point there was not to fight to the last man, but to retreat as many men as possible in the face of crushing defeat.

Originally posted by [82]11Bravo1P:

...so that this nation shall not perish from the earth

Um...I'm not sure how to put this to you. Valley Forge certainly qualifies (roughly, given that this nation didn't actually exist yet) for the rubric 'so that this nation shall not perish from the earth'.

But the Alamo had nothing to do with the survival of the American nation, and was, in fact, much more about an attempt to set-up an independent nation by Anglo expats and Hispanic rebels.

And Dunkirk was an extraordinary tribute to the will power of the Brits not to succumb to their crushing defeat in Europe, but also had absolutely nothing to do with America or it's survival as a nation, especially given that America was almost insanely opposed to entering the war in Europe at the time that Dunkirk took place.

Unless, of course, you're using the phrase 'that this nation should not perish from the earth' in a much larger, weirder, general way, that could equally be applied to Hitler's counter-attack in the Ardennes, or Stalin's willingness to sacrifice tens of thousands in mindless, desperate attacks.

Of course, if you are, I'm not sure what your freaking point is.

And as for drums and flowers on the corner? I'm across the way on the second floor, guy, scoping out fields of fire. Fortunately for you, my tactical ineptitude is a matter of record.

Not to mention that your philosophical and political stand is confusing my troops. I'd lead a pogrom against you, but I can't decide whether to base it on your simplistic view of history, or the fact that you think Dunkirk was an example of American steadfastness in the face of adversity...

[[82]11Bravo1P]

This will be my last reply for this particular post so you can have the last word. I like your points but your use of words that you percieve to be fancy in order to get your point across gets annoying. I read your other posts and you only do it to reenforce your points and your ego, but that's o.k. free country.

Valley forge reinforces my original point and post, of resolve for troops to express themselves for their cause, no matter what that might be. And for the game to include the battle against not only the enemy but circumstance in its function. I happen to respect someone that would sacrifice for themselves and others.

The Alamo defenders, regardless of their nationality, could have surrendered and then been summarily tortured by the Mexicans. My point is the sacrifice not the nationality. If your going to nitpick details stay to the subject.

Dunkirk victim numbers are not known. It is estimated that 338,226 Frence, Belgian, and British men were saved on the shallow shore of Dunkirk. It is unkown how many sacrificed themselves against overwhelming odds and fear and ended up half buryed in the sand. What is known is that it was a devistating loss during a time of panic, regarless of what British propeganda reported. The planes still bombed the snot out of them and infantry still held as long as possible against tanks. As per my original subject matter for this post. Twist it however you like.

I used my quote exactly how you took it.

My point here is not to dispute or try to sound intelligent about history. I have a degree and a job to do that. (As my profile says.) I am sure your gaming skill are as stellar as your scrable vocabulary. I only play with close friends and the computer. But if your pogrom didn't work against my troops I would definately use a classic purge. Why waste time on the battlefield when you can eliminate the head in the middle of the night in secret.

All in fun of course.

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by [82]11Bravo1P:

All in fun of course.

Of course. And I did read your profile. I hope you teach math, or something like it.

This country needs more good teachers, and it needs to honor them, and pay them a decent wage.

Of course, I'd hope that your average teacher could spell, use grammar correctly, wouldn't use history in a fairly random way to support their own agenda, wouldn't belittle other's political views as being effete simply because they could spell, use grammar (relatively) correctly, and were willing, in a Nation that embraces freedom, to espouse a contrary viewpoint.

But then, I'm probably a hippy, draft-dodging liberal pussy who most likely voted Democrat in the last election when a Pro-American Administration consistently worked to reduce or eliminate benefits to Veterans as part of their stated 'reduction in services as opposed to taxes' policy aimed at paying for a war that none of them would ever have actually been willing or required to serve in.

On the other hand, I believe we've gotten off to a bad start.

Frankly, I'm one of those 'Liberal Bullies' that you constantly encounter on the American political landscape, always willing to make a mockery of the freedoms that are mine without stopping to consider if I actually deserve them.

And I don't.

On the other hand, that doesn't mean that I don't revere freedom. Even when it benefits as sorry a creature as myself.

So lets agree that we don't necessarily see the world the same way.

I'll continue to use mockery, intellectual slipperiness, and proper spelling as a means of promoting my beliefs, but I'll also continue to honour those who've fought for this country.

And we won't have to talk about things like my goddamn great-grandfather being turned away from entering this country in New York, and coming in through Canada because he was Irish. Or how, once he got to America, he served in the Wisconsin Regiment, even though he was only 14 years old, during the American Civil War. And how, to this day, I have to listen to the bloody Southerners go on about the wonderful 'War of Southern Independence'.

Hell no! You see, I know that it's a fecking privilege to live in this country. I was one year too young to serve in the final stages of Viet Nam. I was far too old to serve in the Gulf Wars. But there's not one day that goes by that doesn't tell me that somehow, I've failed my country, because all I've ever done is love it!

But you know, I understand your unwillingness to regard me as a 'Real American'. I never served. So it's no wonder that I despise the American Service Man. My Dad was in the artillery in Korea. Until he got transferred over to the ASA (the officers seconded over to the NSA during the war). That's probably where I got my sneaky, unappreciative streak.

Like I say, we simply got off on the wrong foot. But don't be after implying that I'm some kind of hippy wuss, please. I mean, do you actually expect me to be able to go on with that sort of shame?!

Do you want to be responsible for my suicide?!!!

[Battlefront.com]

er.... okay....

Steve