Does anyone know?

[Python61]

I have noticed that a lot of film footage of the T-34 taken during WWII, shows infantry riding into combat on the rear deck.

What I was wondering, is if anyone knows if this easy infantry carrying capability was designed into the T-34 on the drawing board, or was it just that it was a useful by product of the design choice for a forward mounted turret?

[Leopard_2]

I've seen tank-riding infantry on pictures from North Africa just as well, both British and German. Of course a forward turret makes it more comfortable for infantry to hitch a ride, but since Soviet doctrine forbade infantry to do so, I'd assume it hadn't been a "design choice".

No infantry, when given a choice, choses walking over riding.

[T-34\85]

? I find it hard to believe Soviet infantry were forbidden of doing so given how often they did it.

[YankeeDog]

I've read a fair amount about the original design process for the T-34, and nothing I've seen mentions any specific intent to make the T-34 well-suited for carrying mounted infantry when they created the basic design in the late 1930s and early 40s.

However, at least in WWII, Soviet infantry were definitely not forbidden from riding on tanks. In fact, for a large part of the war, it was and integral part of Soviet doctrine and tactics. By mid-late WWII, the Red Army was fielding specifically trained tankodesantniki units (literally, "tank divers" -- not sure if I've got the spelling exactly right there) whose whole purpose was to ride on the backs of (mostly) T-34s in deep penetration operations. A number of minor modifications were made to the T-34 for this purpose, including rails and handles mounted on the hull to give the infantry something to hold on to. I'm not sure if these were field modifications, or if they were actually done at the factory.

I'm less familiar with post-WWII Soviet doctrine and practice, but I believe that tankodesantniki were largely replaced by infantry accompanying tanks in APCs, rather than exposed on the tanks' backs. I do remember a fair amount of footage from Afghanistan of Soviet infantry riding on tanks, but there's a big difference between catching a ride on a tank on a road march, and actually riding one into a hot combat zone.

Cheers,

YD

[Glider]

To me tankodesantniki sounds like a tank-desant-troops combination. "Desant" meaning landing/debarkation...

[YankeeDog]

If you are a Russian speaker (native or well trained), you'd know better than I what the exact etymology of tankodesantniki is. I only speak a few words of Russian that my late Grandmother (who emigrated from the Ukraine) taught me.

The "tank diver" thing I got out of some book. Unfortunately, I don't remember which at the moment.

Whatever the etymology, though, in practice the tankodesantniki were infantry specifically trained to ride into the fight on the backs of tanks.

As a side note, I don't think the Red Army was espcially in love with the idea of sticking infantry on tanks. I think mostly it was just that, by mid-war anyway, they had recognized that advancing armored spearheads needed an infantry component. Since they lacked a good APC of any kind (they had a few lend-lease M3 halftracks, but not much else), the best solution they could come up with was to stick the infantry on actual backs of the tanks. Obviously, it wasn't an ideal solution, which is probably why they developed APCs post-war.

Cheers,

YD

[Glider]

Well my Serbian is more than a bit like Russian and it has the word "desant"... there is not a truly equivalent word in English but people who perform desants, i.e. desantniki would be performing "forceful debarkation" or "debarkation under fire"... that is the closest I can get

[YankeeDog]

Ah, that makes more sense.

In English, we don't really have a single word that means "forceful debarkation", but often use the phrase "to dive for cover" to describe this kind of action.

So "tank diver" works as a translation, in the sense that they are infantry soldiers who "dive for cover" off the backs of tanks.

Actually, if you think about it, this gives a pretty good indication of how dangerous the Soviets considered this job -- the soldiers were constantly having to dive off of the backs of the tanks and into better cover!

Cheers,

YD

[MikeyD]

You can track the Soviet change in thinking on this subject by the progress of T34 design. 1941-42 there were no side hull grab bars - the Stalingrad version was free of ANY hull side features! From 1943 on (about the time of the Kursk assault) weld-on railings and grab bars began appearing on more and more tanks types, reflecting the change in doctrine regarding accompanying infantry.

You can see this change on a smaller scale in the West. I have a photo of Shermans near war's end in '45 with troops riding on top. Not only are grab rails welded the length of the hull but a ladder was spot-welded to the back to help embarkation!