That's not a T-72B in those pictures

[T-34\85]

The T-72B looks different from that. It does not have smoke grenade launchers across the front of the turret like the model in the game, it's SGDs are along the sides. It also should have much thicker frontal armour with "cutouts" near the bottom to allow the turret to turn.

A simple google image search for T-72Bs should reveal the discrepancy.

[T-34\85]

http://www.mainbattletanks.czweb.org/Tanky/t-72b.htm

A good one. Looks like T-72Bs on parade in the USSR (the T-72B was never exported outside the USSR, of course)

There's also this one, a good closeup of the turret with the much thicker armour very obvious:

http://www.ifrance.com/ArmyReco/Russe/vehicules_lourds/T-72B/T-72B_Russe_06.jpg

[rune]

It could be a t-72b, as there are multiple versions of the t72b. You are referring to what in the west is called the t-72b1. For example:

T-72 First version of the T-72 to enter production with early versions having searchlight mounted on left as well as the standard production type TPD-2-49 coincidence rangefinder sight that protrudes from the turret.

T-72K Command version of original T-72 with additional communications equipment. The K-series tanks are essentially the same: company Ks having two R-123M or R-173 radios, and battalion/regiment versions have one R123M/R-173 and one R-130M that has a 10 m antenna when erected.

T-72A This has the coincidence rangefinder replaced by the TPD-K1 laser rangefinder. Called T-72M in the former Warsaw Pact with export versions being called the T-72G. Also has plastic armor side skirts in place of the flipper type armor panels found on the earlier models. This skirt covers the upper part of the suspension with separate panels protecting the sides of the fuel and stowage panniers.

T-72AK Command version of T-72A with additional communications equipment.

T-72B This model has the thickened frontal turret armor and is commonly known in the United States as the Dolly Parton. It also has improved engine cooling and a plate of 20-mm appliqu? armor added to the top of the glacis plate. The T-72B with 12 smoke mortars on the turret front is referred to as the SMT M1981/3. The SMT M1984 has its snorkel moved to rear aft of stowage bin, and a third stowage bin added on left side of turret. Late models have appliqu? armor matting on turret roof and either side of the driver's station.

T-72BK Command version of T-72B.

T-72BV This is T-72B with explosive reaction armor packages fitted to the hull and turret. The glacis plate is covered with a layer of single ERA blocks while the turret is covered by one, two or three layers with one being the more usual. A single layer of ERA also covers the sides of the vehicle to provide protection to the suspension and upper sides of the hull. There are two types of former Soviet ERA blocks. First the standard shoe type box which has overall dimensions of about 25.5 cm by 13.5 cm and second the wedge type block. Both of these often have an arrow indicating the way that they should be installed to provide the maximum degree of protection. The standard ERA block has an ERA element (two plates of steel separated by explosive) which can be positioned in one of two positions for maximum protection while the wedge type has a fixed ERA element.

T-72B1 This is the first T-72 with NDZ armor and externally identifiable with the considerably thickened turret frontal armor, this is referred to as the Super Dolly Parton. The SMT M1988 has eight smoke mortars on left side and has explosive reactive armor and larger gunner's night sight housing. The T-72B1 is fitted with the fire control system for the 9M119 Svir AT-11 SNIPER missile system.

T-72B1K This is a T-72B1 with additional communications equipment for use in the command post role.

T-72B1V This is a T-72B1 with explosive reaction armor packages fitted to the turret and hull.

T-72S This is an export version of the T-72B1.

T-72BM This is the T-72B1 fitted with 2nd Generation Reactive armor, similar to that on the T-90.

M-84 This is a Yugoslav version of the T-72 which is almost identical to late production Soviet T-72 with two banks of smoke dischargers mounted on the turret front, seven on the left and five on the right. The main areas of difference are in the computerized fire control system and vehicle optics. The M-84 has a distinctive mast containing sensors fitted on the forward part of the turret to the immediate rear of the 125-mm gun. An improved version, the M-84A has a number of improvements including a more powerful 1000 hp diesel engine which gives a higher road speed, greater acceleration and improved power-to-weight ratio, and improved armor protection.

TR-125 This is the Romanian version of the T-72 which has a number of significant differences to the original Soviet MBT. The TR-125 weighs 48 tons, due to increased armor protection over the frontal arc. The TR-125 has seven road wheels of a different design, a new one piece skirt and is powered by a more powerful 880 hp diesel engine. PT-91 Twardy This Polish variant of the T-72 has a number of improvements over the earlier T-72M1. The major improvements include: Polish-developed explosive reactive armor Type ERAWA-1; four laser warning receivers, which warn the crew if they are being targeted by a laser rangefinder or designator; new computerized fire control system, with optional thermal sight; new passive night sights; improved automotive components including 850 hp engine, rubber bushed tracks, and a modern fire detection and suppression system.

T-72AM Banan The T-72AM Banan is an advanced T-72 design, equipped with the same 6TD-2 diesel engine (1250 hp) as the T-84 (see T-84 in T-80 Variants section). The vehicle is covered extensively with early generation ERA tiles and thus looks very similar to the latest Russian T-72s.

T-72 with PW-LWD mine clearance system The Polish Army has deployed a tank-mounted rocket propelled mine-clearing system on a T-72 chassis. This system consists of a rocket that is attached to a 170 m explosive filled hose. The complete system is carried in a boat-shaped container that slides onto a special mount on the hull top at the rear of the vehicle. The vehicle halts on arrival at the minefield, and the PW-LWD system is fired. The explosive hose falls to the ground and is detonated, setting off any mines in its path.

MTU-72 AVLB The FSU has deployed an armored vehicle launched bridge.

Hope this helps.

Rune

[MikeyD]

Oh! On a subsequent game version ("T72: Fulda Gap"?) I'd LOVE to see various versions of front armor upgrades fielded! Late T72s vs M60A2s (and we get to fight in either). Yum.

I understand from one source the uparmored 'Dolly Pardon" version had a gap fillled with silica (sand) to absorb the kinetic energy of AP and HEAT rounds. If you include the laser-riding AT-missile and the anti-TOW IR 'dazzler' device, I certainly wouldn't mind trying one of those late production tanks out on a future 'virtual' battlefield!

[T-34\85]

It could be a t-72b, as there are multiple versions of the t72b. You are referring to what in the west is called the t-72b1. For example:

Those listings are in error. For example, the T-72B1 is identical to the T-72B except that its cheaper. The "1" denotes that is is not equipped with the very expensive Svir/Refleks ATGM system. This also applies to the T-64B and the T-62M, for example (except that they were equipped with the Kobra and Sheksna ATGM systems, respectively)- they had cheaper versions known as T-64B1 and T-62M1.

In addition, there's no such thing as a "T-72BV". Just another peculiar "gotcha!" of Soviet tank designations. There is of course a T-72AV and T-80BV, but the T-72B was intended to mount Kontakts ERA in battle from the start, and so never got a seperate "v", according to Vasiliy Fofanov.

In truth, the T-72A was the "Dolly Parton". The T-72B was the "Super Dolly Parton".

[T-34\85]

This is an interesting example of the contradictions and errors you'll find on the internet that I referred to in the K-V thread:

http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/armored_vehicles/t-72a_m.htm

Notice that the pages are scans from Jane's AFV identification handbook (I have a more current version), and confirm that T-72B1 is just a T-72B without the ATGM. However, the same page also cut and pastes from the website sources claiming the T-72B1 is some sort of improved T-72B. Guess which one is correct?

[rune]

Well, I have several sources that state differently. These sources are Russian, so who is correct, a Western source or the people who made the tank?

Sources include:

www.armscontrol.ru which is the Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology

Center for Arms Control, Energy and Environmental Studies

http:www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/t72tank.htm

which states The T-72 has the same integral smoke generating capability as earlier T-54/55/62, tanks, and variants have been observed with smoke grenade projectors mounted on the front of the turret.

Another source from those pesky Russians, why look at the smoke launchers listed. http://www.vojska.net/military/equipment/tank/m-84/default.asp

Then we have the Germans with photos of their T72s. Note the smoke dispensers. http://www.lexikon.fungamebtl.de/lexikon/land/t72/en_t72/en_t72.html

Janes even states the the T72 has smoke dischargers on BOTH sides of the turret.

Another photo:

http://www.army.lt/armor/t-rus/rus30.html

Also found sources from Finland, Isreal, Hungary, etc, which also state the T72B had the smoke dischargers as shown in the game. The Russians moved them part-way through the T72B production run.

Rune

[rune]

Follow-up, asked the guys, and they will confirm but they think the blueprints was from the UKBM Nizhny Tagil factory, but they are getting them out to confirm. Hopefully later today I'll be able to specify either that one or the Malyshev HMB Plant.

Rune

[rune]

Another German source on their T-72s, look at the smoke dischargers.

http://www.reserve-info.de/kpanzer/t72.htm

Rune

[T-34\85]

Well, I have several sources that state differently. These sources are Russian, so who is correct, a Western source or the people who made the tank?

Sources include:

www.armscontrol.ru which is the Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology

Center for Arms Control, Energy and Environmental Studies

That is not a "Russian" source. Just because it has a ".ru" doesn't mean that the information cut and pasted there is necessarily of Russian origin, as amply demonstrated by aeronautics.ru. I'll trust Vasiliy Fofanov and Jane's over that inaccurate drivel any day- the elementary "T-72B1" and "T-72BV" mistake gives it all away. I suggest you email him.

http:www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/t72tank.htm

which states The T-72 has the same integral smoke generating capability as earlier T-54/55/62, tanks, and variants have been observed with smoke grenade projectors mounted on the front of the turret.

Not the most important visual difference. The thicker armour with the cut-out bottom is most important. Furthermore, while some T-72Bs have indeed been seen with front mounted SGDs, they are very rare.

Another source from those pesky Russians, why look at the smoke launchers listed.

How does this source prove your argument? It doesn't. The T-72B is differentiated from other versions by visual differences. In particular, the Yugoslav M-84 has very little to do with the T-72B.

Then we have the Germans with photos of their T72s. Note the smoke dispensers.

The Germans never had T-72Bs, so I don't see how you think this is relevant. Only one of those tanks you see on that page is a T-72B- the top one. In actual fact, it may be a T-72S, the export version of the T-72B, since the pic originates from the Army Technology website. The rest are T-72Ms and T-72M1s.

Janes even states the the T72 has smoke dischargers on BOTH sides of the turret.

That's a vague statement. The T-72B is what it's important, all it's identifying features. You're just obsessing over SGDs.

Another photo:

Bunch of photos, actually- some of which are T-72Bs, and some of which aren't.

Also found sources from Finland, Isreal, Hungary, etc, which also state the T72B had the smoke dischargers as shown in the game. The Russians moved them part-way through the T72B production run.

So? The turret armour is still too thin, and using a T-72B from the early 80s of which very few real pictures exist (all of your front mounted SGDs being T-72Ms and T-72M1s) makes little sense and just serves to confuse.

[ March 10, 2005, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: T-34\85 ]

[rune]

Because I deal with one issue at a time. My apologies, as I thought I had said that, but going back and reading, apparently I had not.

However, Let's look at Janes, their database says "as reported by Russian Sources". OK, Blueprints from the factory and the fact several sources state there were early and late versions of the T72B which included Janes by the way. Also you completely ignored the fact theat these same sources state the laser moved from right to left. More information I found is posted in a later message, read it first.

Admit you are wrong about the smoke dischargers, and I will see what I can dig up on the armour.

Let us deal with one issue at a time. For that my apologies, as I should have stated I was dealing with one thing at a time, which I did not.

Rune

[ March 10, 2005, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: rune ]

[rune]

More detail,

Of the T-72B, NOT counting the t-72B1, just the plain T-72b, there are NINE variants. Searchlight, snorkle, Boron mats, gunner's site, and found it! The T-72B variant 2 with the smoke dischargers as in the game. Here is a list, and I included the T72b1.

T-72B - Fitted with thicker armour on the turret front.

T-72B [Variant 1] - Schnorkel moved to rear bin and extra turret bin fitted

T-72B [Variant 2] - 7+5 sgd on turret front

T-72B [Variant 3] - Boron mat on turret roof and drivers roof

T-72B [Variant 4] - RHS turret stowage moved back and MG ammo box reduced to one

T-72B [Variant 5] - Boron mat on the drivers roof is extended to cover the drivers hatch

T-72B [Variant 6] - Fitted with larger gunners sight

T-72B [Variant 7] - Fittings for ERA and larger gunners sight

T-72B [Variant 8] - ERA fittings and small gunners sight

T-72B1 - Main Battle Tank fitted with 227 ERA segments

I will continue to see what I can find out about the armour. I have one US Army source that says the T72A was the Dolly Parton, and the T72B was the Super Dolly Parton, but will see if I can dig up more and hopefully get more information from the blueprints. As a no hard feelings, IF i can get a set of blueprints, [Russia get paranoid still about things like this] would you like a copy? Will be my way of apologizing for thinking i mentioned one thing at a time when I didn't, which again, apologies for.

Rune

[rune]

From a tanker that took pictures of the T72s.

Hi,

Interestingly enough, I think everyone is correct in the turret being both mostly correct and horribly wrong.

We have shot over a hundred of these to you-know-where and gone over the past ten years as remote controlled and static targets. I have quite a few photos of these, and quit taking them (ESPECIALLY of the former East German ones) becuase if I only focused on the differences between them I would have shots of about every third one!

There must be at least six different turret types and styles, and at least some have antenna mountings moved from around to be similar (fat chance!) to U.S. type mountings..........I even have photos of one command tank directly out of storage that was us U.S. Olive Drab paint......it really stood out amongst the others!

My feeling (opinion, not based on detailed data --- for that I trust to Steve Zaloga and company) is that each of the factories produced turrets that were similar but not identical above the turret rings, and that the longer this critter was in production the more variance crept in at each plant.

from missing-lynx.com Interesting reading on the turret/dolly parton discussion.

Rune

[rune]

ARRRGGGHHHHHHH. to further confuse the issue, it seems there were also some T-72as that were converted to the T72B standard without a new turret. Paul lakowski, where are you when I need you? I'll keep digging around on the armour issue.

Rune

[ March 10, 2005, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: rune ]

[Ivan Bajlo]

Originally posted by rune:

Another source from those pesky Russians, why look at the smoke launchers listed. http://www.vojska.net/military/equipment/tank/m-84/

I'm not Russian, I'm Croat! :mad:

[rune]

Apologies, I cut and pasted you site when I was looking at another, and digging out some books.

Rune

[Ivan Bajlo]

Originally posted by rune:

Apologies, I cut and pasted you site when I was looking at another, and digging out some books.

No apologies necessary... this was only shameless self promotion stunt.

[snakeeyes]

The graphics for the the T-72 in the game is most likely the Check/Polish export version of the T-72A known also as the T-72M1. Zaloga is the man.

[Diesel]

Originally posted by rune:

Also found sources from Finland, Isreal, Hungary, etc, which also state the T72B had the smoke dischargers as shown in the game. The Russians moved them part-way through the T72B production run.

How can a source from Finland verify that T-72B had smoke dischargers as shown in the game as Finland has T-72M1s which are export versions of T-72A, not T-72B. Hungary didn't have T-72Bs either, but T-72M1s.

I think it's pretty clear to anyone who's familiar with spotting various details from tank photos that the tank in game externally looks like T-72A/M1, but it's FCS is more similar to T-72B(not accurate though).

While you are correct that some early T-72Bs had smoke discharges on both sides of front turret, you also have to remember that these tanks had thickened frontal armour which the tank in game does not have.

[rune]

I never said they had the tank, but they do have specs on the Russian T72. How does a US source have specs on the T72? Again, you ignore the fact they have blueprints of the tank. Basically it appears that each factory had its own version of the T72, which surprised me quite a bit. Smoke discharger and laser changed during the production run. However, the armour I can NOT find, so will bow to your expertese.

Rune