spytos Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Hi, First of all I would like to say that "Down in Flames" is an excellent game, so congratulations to the developers and the playtesting team! During the previous week I did an extensive playtesting of the game in order to analyse and evaluate the AI routines (algorithms). The result of this playtesting is a set of over a dozen of suggestions (small corrections in the logical steps) in order to make the AI more challenging. If the developers would like to discuss these points, please instruct me a valid email address in order to send them over. You may post here the email or send it to spytos@myway.com. cheers, spytos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartbert Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 If you send your suggestions to difadmin@battlefront.com both Dan and I will get it. We're always interested to hear feedback and suggestions from players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spytos Posted February 6, 2006 Author Share Posted February 6, 2006 Thanks, I have already sent you the first email. cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spytos Posted February 8, 2006 Author Share Posted February 8, 2006 Hi, Perhaps we may discuss in the forum some of the AI problems, so some of the most problematic AI routines are: 1.The use of ACE PILOT card: The AI (pilot) will use this card even if it can use another alternative reaction card, I have seen the AI using this card in order to inflict me 1 damage to my undamaged pilot plane... 2. The allocation of targets from the AI pilot and Wingman, which should be the same target (pilot - at least in higher levels) since this will help the drainage of the player's cards. For me, every-time the AI is attacking my wingman it is like a Christmas gift... 3. The changing of altitude, whenever the AI is at disadvantage/tailed position... EVEN if the AI is undamaged and has 20 cards, while the human has 6-7 cards. The weird thing is that if the human follows the changing of altitude, then the AI will react and harm the player's pilot, BUT if the player won't follow the AI then the player will be able to first attack the AI in the next turn and earn an easy win. 4. The firing sequence of the AI is not the ideal since it fails to drain the reaction cards from the player's arsenal. It should follow the sequence of the multiple 1:1. 5. If the AI has more than the performance cards then it won't discard even if those cards are not good for battle. cheers, [ February 08, 2006, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: spytos ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixxkiller Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Spytos, Hi you havent played for too long so I will comment on some of these things from a strategic standpoint. You mentioned in #3 that the AI will dive or climb in situations where it is disadvantaged or tailed. I actually think that with the many skills the AI pilots possess' this is a rather good thing to do as you cannot see what the AI has and many times the Human player has enough defensive cards to thwart an attack from the AI's position. I think you will find that by diving the AI tries to pick up cards just as a human and climbing has advantages especially if it forces you to gain the advantage again when you dont follow. Also I am not in the opinion that the sequence should be lowest firing card first as it would depend on the circumstance. I dont always fire the lowest offensive card first as that will make me predictable. The AI used to discard the maximum every round, even when it was overstocked. Sometimes I think this works out and sometimes it doesnt. And as for attacking the wingman, I suggest you play a human player as this is almost standard opperation procedure. I know my wingam gets shot down sometimes and at higher levels try fighting without the wingman against 2 AI pilots. Not a pretty sight. -Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spytos Posted February 9, 2006 Author Share Posted February 9, 2006 Ray, What I say has nothing to do with the actual target, but with the dual attack (pilot + wingman) on the same target. I don't think that there is a single player who will first engage the hostile wingman with his wingman and then engage the hostile pilot with his pilot... I think that every experienced player should attack a SINGLE target instead of 2 separate ones. All tactical doctrines teaches the above... Concerning the rule of the lowest firing order, it is a standard procedure if you wish to drain the reaction card of your oponent. If you have 4 burst and the following cards: 2 IMS 1:1 and 1 IMS 2:kill, then... there is only one combination to play: 1. IMS 1:1 2. IMS 1:1 3. IMS 2:kill this is a simple example of the order of firing and if anyone is playing a different order then he won't last too long in the air! I have played a lot of dogfights (over 700 kills total) and I know that (at least in high level) the AI is always changing the altitude (at least 9/10 of the times) if disadvantaged. I also know that everytime I dared to follow the enemy I lost several useful cards (for using in my active turn) and most of the times at the end of the AI turn, I was in a disadvantaged or tailed position... So instead of following the changing of altitude I wait for my turn and then I first attack in my active turn (most of the times I kill both of planes by the end of turn3. Finally the AI can't use effectively the ACE PILOT card, which is a problem. cheers, p.s I am one of the top pbem (on active ladders) player in at least 2 turn based strategy games. [ February 09, 2006, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: spytos ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spytos Posted February 9, 2006 Author Share Posted February 9, 2006 Beside the points in my previous post, there is another thing: There are lucky games like the casino roulette and mind games like the chess. DIF is somewhere in between these games and can be characterized as a technically lucky game. DIF is has bigger luck factor than BRIDGE card game so it may follow the same rules concerning tournaments rules. In BRIDGE whenever there is a competition the teams (players) play using the same order of cards. This is made in order to eliminate the luck factor and thus being able to compare the result between the teams. The winner is the one who performs better with the same order of cards. Just also take this into consideration. cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartbert Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Well, you'll get no argument from me over whether the AI decision making logic could be improved. No question that the AI often does things that even a fairly novice player wouldn't do. The trick is in being able to quantify the decision making process in such a way that it can be represented in a program. Once a player gets a little experience with the game, they would hardly even have to think about many decisions. Yet if you were to step back and think through why you arrived at a particular decision, you would realize that you took a lot of factor into account. We recently improved the discard decision process used by the AI. Previously, it had been mostly random with a little bit of an attempt to favor offensive or defensive cards based on the situation. Now, we assign a value to every card in the Bot pilot's hand that takes into account the current game situation. For example, an IMS 1:2 is worth more if you're advantaged or tailing, and less if you're disadvantaged or tailed. The cards are then ranked from lowest to highest and the lowest value cards are discarded first. I think most human players go through a similar ranking process without really thinking about it. We'll be upgrading the AI logic for changing altitude and choosing cards in the not too distant future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spytos Posted February 10, 2006 Author Share Posted February 10, 2006 Actually the best course of action whenever a player discards, is to throw away all the maneuver cards and the IMS 3:*, 2:* (except 2:kill) and 1:1. The logic of such an action is that whenever you are going to be attacked you should try to have as much reaction cards as possible. Also in each discard the player will receive some maneuver and IMS cards. Also it is best to instruct the AI to keep the last line of defense (reaction cards) at the phase of firing reaction (rather than positioning reaction. The logic of the above is that if the human has 5 maneuver cards, only the 2 of them are good for positioning. If in the other hand the AI has 3 reaction (tight turn) cards he may WASTE these cards in positioning reaction instead of firing reaction. In other words: It is better to make the other player to discard his maneuver cards, rather than react to his positioning maneuvers. I always (high level planes) keep my reaction cards for the reaction of firing phase, because the burst availability is limited while on the other hand the maneuver cards are unlimited! Also try to fix the ACE PILOT card. cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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